Ohio Chatter DEV

steubbigred

Look up the Danzig corridor. Germany wanted that port which was part of Poland prior to the start of WWII. That part of Poland also had many ethnic German's and Germany used the exact same premise when they invaded Poland.

LJ

steubbigred;1586590 wrote:Maybe we ought to give Russia Alaska back SMH

Not even close

LJ

steubbigred;1586652 wrote:Look up the Danzig corridor. Germany wanted that port which was part of Poland prior to the start of WWII. That part of Poland also had many ethnic German's and Germany used the exact same premise when they invaded Poland.

Crimea has been disputed since the breakup of the USSR. Not just between Ukraine and Russia, but Crimea has been it's own country on and off and Ukraine had slowly been stripping their rights.

isadore

When
the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the newly independent Ukraine had on its territory what was the third largest strategic nuclear weapons arsenal in the world. It was larger than those of Britain, France, and China combined. On June 1, 1996 Ukraine became a non-nuclear nation when it sent the last of its 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads to Russia for dismantling. In exchange they got:
　
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories in connection to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.
According to the memorandum, Russia, the US, and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
<dir> <dir> Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
　
　
　
</dir> </dir>

isadore

Russia was expansionist under the Romanovs,
under the Communists
and now returns to character under Putin.

среда обитания
sreda obitaniya
"lebensraum": German » Russian

HitsRus

Look up the Danzig corridor. Germany wanted that port which was part of Poland prior to the start of WWII. That part of Poland also had many ethnic German's and Germany used the exact same premise when they invaded Poland.

Exactly. After the breakup of Pussia and the Austria-Hungary Empire following WWI lines on the map were 'redrawn'. Surprise....somebody didn't like it, so the more powerful countries use 'protecting their interests' as an excuse to take what they want. Same thing is going on now...the old U.S.S.R breaks up.....the Russians are moving back in "to protect their interests". Now that they have Crimea...it'll be curious to see if other areas nearby need to have their inteests protected.

steubbigred

LJ;1586660 wrote:Crimea has been disputed since the breakup of the USSR. Not just between Ukraine and Russia, but Crimea has been it's own country on and off and Ukraine had slowly been stripping their rights.

Russia is saying they want to protect the Russian civilians and the other people who side with Putin's views. Germany said pretty much the same thing before they invaded Poland.
The maps of Europe have all together changed over time many many times . This is an outrage and nothing more than an armed invasion. Putin has been kicking our behinds over European issues for far too long . If his aggression goes unchecked then he could take back more territory lost after the Soviet breakup. Kazackstan could be next . He is an old KGB thug and he wants to bring back Soviet glory. We can't afford another arms race and he knows it . We are trying to get out of Afghanistan and he knows it . Putin is going to continue to take back more lost territory as time goes by. The thing about it is . We have our hands tied . We are broke and he knows it . There are definitly similarities with the German aggression towards Poland in 1939.

steubbigred

HitsRus;1586676 wrote:Exactly. After the breakup of Pussia and the Austria-Hungary Empire following WWI lines on the map were 'redrawn'. Surprise....somebody didn't like it, so the more powerful countries use 'protecting their interests' as an excuse to take what they want. Same thing is going on now...the old U.S.S.R breaks up.....the Russians are moving back in "to protect their interests". Now that they have Crimea...it'll be curious to see if other areas nearby need to have their inteests protected.

100%

LJ

steubbigred;1586677 wrote:Russia is saying they want to protect the Russian civilians and the other people who side with Putin's views. Germany said pretty much the same thing before they invaded Poland.
The maps of Europe have all together changed over time many many times . This is an outrage and nothing more than an armed invasion. Putin has been kicking our behinds over European issues for far too long . If his aggression goes unchecked then he could take back more territory lost after the Soviet breakup. Kazackstan could be next . He is an old KGB thug and he wants to bring back Soviet glory. We can't afford another arms race and he knows it . We are trying to get out of Afghanistan and he knows it . Putin is going to continue to take back more lost territory as time goes by. The thing about it is . We have our hands tied . We are broke and he knows it . There are definitly similarities with the German aggression towards Poland in 1939.

HitsRus;1586676 wrote:Exactly. After the breakup of Pussia and the Austria-Hungary Empire following WWI lines on the map were 'redrawn'. Surprise....somebody didn't like it, so the more powerful countries use 'protecting their interests' as an excuse to take what they want. Same thing is going on now...the old U.S.S.R breaks up.....the Russians are moving back in "to protect their interests". Now that they have Crimea...it'll be curious to see if other areas nearby need to have their inteests protected.

Except there is a large portion of Crimea that supports Russia. They don't WANT to be part of Ukraine and haven't wanted to be part of Ukraine.

I think the best solution would be for Russia helping Crimea kick Ukraine out like they have been trying to do for year's, then leave them Sovereign. Nobody is going to stand up to Russia and force their hands on that.

In the end everyone but Russia and Crimea lose.

steubbigred

LJ;1586679 wrote:Except there is a large portion of Crimea that supports Russia. They don't WANT to be part of Ukraine and haven't wanted to be part of Ukraine.

I think the best solution would be for Russia helping Crimea kick Ukraine out like they have been trying to do for year's, then leave them Sovereign. Nobody is going to stand up to Russia and force their hands on that.

In the end everyone but Russia and Crimea lose.

Check out the Czech crises of 1938 concerning the Sudetenland. It was inhabited by many ethnic Germans who wanted to come back to the fatherland after Germany lost WWI . Britain and France bowed to German aggression then just like you are suggesting the world do now with Russia. This is going to be a dangerous inaction by the world .

I am sure parts of California and New Mexico,and Arizona would like to be part of Mexico.

The way Russia is doing this is lawless. Let the people of Ukraine sort there own issues out,and determine there own fate. Ukraine is being strong armed and Russia is breaking the treaty they had.

majorspark

LJ;1586679 wrote:Except there is a large portion of Crimea that supports Russia. They don't WANT to be part of Ukraine and haven't wanted to be part of Ukraine.

Crowds cheered Hitler in Vienna and the Sudetenland as well. Large numbers didn't want to part of Austria and Czechoslovakia either.

LJ;1586679 wrote:I think the best solution would be for Russia helping Crimea kick Ukraine out like they have been trying to do for year's, then leave them Sovereign. Nobody is going to stand up to Russia and force their hands on that.

I agree with this but the problem is it has to be an Internationally monitored effort. Just around 58% Russian. The others split between ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars (who despise the Russians). If the Russians are running the show nearly half the newly formed nation is likely to have to be oppressed. The potential for partisan violence against the Russians would be high.

LJ

steubbigred;1586682 wrote:Check out the Czech crises of 1938 concerning the Sudetenland. It was inhabited by many ethnic Germans who wanted to come back to the fatherland after Germany lost WWI . Britain and France bowed to German aggression then just like you are suggesting the world do now with Russia. This is going to be a dangerous inaction by the world .

I believe I never suggested the world bow to Russia. Please read what I said again, then try another response.

The way Russia is doing this is lawless. Let the people of Ukraine sort there own issues out,and determine there own fate. Ukraine is being strong armed and Russia is breaking the treaty they had.

Leaving it to Crimea vs Ukraine won't solve any problems. It may actually end up worse.

LJ

majorspark;1586684 wrote:Crowds cheered Hitler in Vienna and the Sudetenland as well. Large numbers didn't want to part of Austria and Czechoslovakia either.

and we cheered the French when they fought the British for us.

HitsRus

The potential for partisan violence against the Russians would be high.

...and so Russian troops would have to remain.

I think we've seen this before.

we cheered the French when they fought the British for us

Can you show me where/how the people in Crimea were being abused?

LJ

HitsRus;1586692 wrote:
Can you show me where/how the people in Crimea were being abused?

The fact that Ukraine has assaulted their sovereignty for the past 25 years means nothing apparently?

steubbigred

http://youtu.be/t75ldUNc2Xw

History repeating itself. First Georgia ,now the Crimea and then who knows?

HitsRus

.The fact that Ukraine has assaulted their sovereignty for the past 25 years means nothing apparently?

....and Russia held them "unsoveriegn" for how many years prior?

...Haven't really seen a groundswell of 'Crimeans' demanding to be a free and independent state until a few days ago..and that looks even more dubious now.

LJ

HitsRus;1586706 wrote:....and Russia held them "unsoveriegn" for how many years prior?

...Haven't really seen a groundswell of 'Crimeans' demanding to be a free and independent state...and that looks even more dubious now.

You're kidding right? Crimea even installed a new state head when Ukraine fell, declaring itself sovereign. The same head of state that asked Russia to provide security forces. The issue is with Russia and Ukraine, not Russia and Crimea.

Ukraine doesn't acknowledge the govt in Crimea other than attempting to assert that it is" Illegal"

majorspark

LJ;1586691 wrote:and we cheered the French when they fought the British for us.

The French did not stay and occupy the colonies. This has little in common with my statement which was in the context of modern European history. A continent that has birthed two devastating world wars. There is just cause for real concern when events that mirror the lead up to the 2nd WW occur in Europe. Miscalculations at this point can have devastating consequences.

By the way the EU and the Ukrainian opposition are not entirely clean in this. I made mention of this in the politics forum. They are idiots that overplayed their hand and miscalculated Putin and the Russians. When this thread was started I posted pictures of the opposition behaving in a violent manner against a democratically elected government because they scrapped a deal with the EU. The government conceded to the oppositions demands (with the Russians left on the outside by the way). Difference is Russia is breaking treaties and moving troops and military assets to force its will. This has all happened before in this part of the world less than 100 yrs ago.

ohiobucks1

Poland and Georgia have asked NATO to add forces "just in case"... This could get real interesting around 3AM tonight.

HitsRus

Sorry you didn't see my edit..."until a few days ago". The issue of soveriegnty should be between Ukraine and Crimea.

LJ

majorspark;1586711 wrote:The French did not stay and occupy the colonies. This has little in common with my statement which was in the context of modern European history. A continent that has birthed two devastating world wars. There is just cause for real concern when events that mirror the lead up to the 2nd WW occur in Europe. Miscalculations at this point can have devastating consequences.

which is why Russia hasn't fired a shot. Putin is a bully, but he isn't an idiot. He is going to keep seeing what he can get away with. He isn't going to go to war with NATO forces.

This has all happened before in this part of the world less than 100 yrs ago.

Yes, by Russia, multiple times.

ZWICK 4 PREZ

I've sold 2 iPhones on eBay and both of them went to people in Ukraine, so I'm probably a little more of an expert than you guys on this one.
They paid top price for the phones so I'm all for it staying Ukraine.

majorspark

LJ;1586715 wrote:which is why Russia hasn't fired a shot. Putin is a bully, but he isn't an idiot. He is going to keep seeing what he can get away with. He isn't going to go to war with NATO forces.

I know Putin is no idiot. He wants someone else to fire the first shot and they will. The Russians have pulled the insignias off their uniforms. There is a reason for that. No one is going to identify and tell the difference between a Russian soldier executing an order to stir the pot or any militant partisan nut bag.

LJ;1586715 wrote:Yes, by Russia, multiple times.

Nothing to be concerned about then. Glad its not the fucking krouts.

LJ

majorspark;1586725 wrote:I know Putin is no idiot. He wants someone else to fire the first shot and they will. The Russians have pulled the insignias off their uniforms. There is a reason for that. No one is going to identify and tell the difference between a Russian soldier executing an order to stir the pot or any militant partisan nut bag.

Many of the Russian troops are carrying unloaded guns too.

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