obamaKare: the destruction begins
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BoatShoes
'Manhattan Buckeye;1588864 wrote:Nobody likes the NHS, it is that awful. A passport does one well to see how socialism works, or doesn't work
You've been to Singapore yes? Singapore's Healthcare system is also dramatically more socialized than most healthcare delivery in the United States with government ownership of the means of production and Government Control over Medical Savings.
A passport obviously does not do one well to actually understand concepts that one arrogantly talks about like "socialism" and "inflation". -
Manhattan BuckeyeBoatshoes, do you actually see Obamacare becoming popular?
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BoatShoes
Yes. Obamacare, while not what I would have done if I were king, will gradually become popular overtime just like the Massachusetts Health Care Reform and Medicare. I would go so far as to say that it is already irreversible. People are already benefiting from subsidies and this will mean that any real shot at repeal means taking something away from millions of people and making them worse off...particularly older and sicker people who vote.Manhattan Buckeye;1588872 wrote:Boatshoes, do you actually see Obamacare becoming popular?
Even in the unlikely event that we see a Republican President out of today's Republican Party, No Republican President is going to do it. All of their so-called "conservative principles" will fly out the window as fast as you can say "Ronald Reagan proved that Deficits Don't Matter". -
Manhattan Buckeye"You've been to Singapore yes? Singapore's Healthcare system is also dramatically more socialized than most healthcare delivery in the United States with government ownership of the means of production and Government Control over Medical Savings."
No, I haven't.
Of course I have I only lived there for two years, and it is nothing like the NHS or Obamacare.
1) The government controls immigration and there are different rules for different classes of people, are you that stupid to think that the Indian immigrant making 50 cents/hour working on the MRT expansion gets the same treatment that the Westerners that need a SG$100,000 salary to immigrate? Of course not.
2) American liberals want the "best" of all worlds and want someone else to pay for it, which has never worked anywhere, anytime...period. They want European socialism (which barely works, even in regions with most citizens in the same group like Scandinavia), Asian efficiency, and American convenience...and again, someone else is paying for it. -
BoatShoes
You are changing the conversation topic...as you always do.Manhattan Buckeye;1588876 wrote:"You've been to Singapore yes? Singapore's Healthcare system is also dramatically more socialized than most healthcare delivery in the United States with government ownership of the means of production and Government Control over Medical Savings."
No, I haven't.
Of course I have I only lived there for two years, and it is nothing like the NHS or Obamacare.
1) The government controls immigration and there are different rules for different classes of people, are you that stupid to think that the Indian immigrant making 50 cents/hour working on the MRT expansion gets the same treatment that the Westerners that need a SG$100,000 salary to immigrate? Of course not.
2) American liberals want the "best" of all worlds and want someone else to pay for it, which has never worked anywhere, anytime...period. They want European socialism (which barely works, even in regions with most citizens in the same group like Scandinavia), Asian efficiency, and American convenience...and again, someone else is paying for it.
The proposition that put forward is that you're ranting about how socialism sucks. But, guess what, the Delivery of Healthcare in Singapore is largely done through public administration of the means of production. That is socialism and it is way better than in the United States where the means of production are administered privately for most Americans.
You don't know what socialism, just like you do not understand what inflation is. You don't understand lots of things but endlessly rant and rave under a veil of ignorance.
American liberals want the healthcare systems of these countries.
[h=3]Mostly Free[/h]rank country overall change rank country overall change 1 Hong Kong 90.1 +0.8 4 Switzerland 81.6 +0.6 2 Singapore 89.4 +1.4 5 New Zealand 81.2 -0.2 3 Australia 82.0 -0.6 6 Canada 80.2 +0.8
All that have healthcare systems that are much more "socialist" than our own....yet they all have more economic freedom than our own country, ironically, according to the Heritage Foundation which would fight to the death to ensure that we do not have healthcare systems like these countries that have more economic freedom than we do. -
Manhattan BuckeyeThen move to Hong Kong or Singapore or Switzerland, and have a work sponsor that pays you the requisite salary.
You really can't be this dumb.
-edit, and make sure you aren't from India or Bangladesh, what part of different classes of citizens did you not understand? -
BoatShoes
It's not nice to levy insults on the Politics forum. It is against the rules.Manhattan Buckeye;1588897 wrote:Then move to Hong Kong or Singapore or Switzerland, and have a work sponsor that pays you the requisite salary.
You really can't be this dumb.
You are acting like it is easy to emigrate to the United States for one and you're also acting like there's a fixed pie. The increased production in the United States from taking human capital from the rest of the world from immigration always us to have the economic growth and real resources that we consume. If we had the healthcare costs of those countries, even with our immigration system, we would be looking at budget surpluses into perpetuity.
You're acting like our immigration system in conjunction with those healthcare systems will harm us but actually you're missing the fact that our current health care system costs our say society WAAAAAAAY more in real resources than those countries. We would be able to divert trillions of real resources into other productive endeavors if we had the healthcare costs of those countries!
LOL. I am continually amazed at how condescending you are when you are totally off the map on topic after topic! -
Con_Alma
It's not easy. The ease of citizenry doesn't dictate the acceptance of breaking any law.BoatShoes;1588902 wrote:
You are acting like it is easy to emigrate to the United States for one and you're also acting like there's a fixed pie. ... -
Manhattan BuckeyeIt is immigrate, and per my other topic apparently all you have to do is show up in the US. I'm only condescending because I call out BS when I read it.
If you want to move to Singapore, great, I loved it there. But if you are an American you need an employer sponsor because you just don't cross the border, or get a cell phone, or rent a flat without a proper work visa....and you will see South Asian workers living by their work places in squalor, needless to say they don't get the same healthcare treatment.
And maybe you should read my posts more carefully and learn from it, it is easy for Singapore to have a great healthcare system when they restrict who is available to it. Americans tend to want equality. -
BoatShoes
And why are they able to control the delivery of healthcare.......Survey Says.....Socialism! Public Administration of the delivery of healthcare!!!Manhattan Buckeye;1588910 wrote:
And maybe you should read my posts more carefully and learn from it, it is easy for Singapore to have a great healthcare system when they restrict who is available to it. -
BoatShoesManhattan Buckeye;1588910 wrote: Americans tend to want equality.
The United States Healthcare system already effectively prevents millions of americans from obtaining healthcare services. Those other countries that you are acting like only provide healthcare to rich white people are the ones that have broad based universal care for millions of people of different classes. It is America where rich white people are the only ones who are able to get care. LOL. -
Manhattan BuckeyeBoatshoes, stop embarrassing yourself.
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BoatShoes
A very winning argument in support of your assertion that somehow the United States immigration system would destroy publicly administered healthcare delivery here in the United States when publicly administered healthcare delivery, as you yourself pointed out, is the key in controlling healthcare costs LOL.Manhattan Buckeye;1588916 wrote:Boatshoes, stop embarrassing yourself. -
Manhattan BuckeyeIt is winning when I made it very clear that in "awesome" healthcare countries, they don't service everybody. If you are an Indian worker in Singapore and have a health issue, they will send you back to India. In the US, every ER outfit will take care of you....even the illegals.
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BoatShoes
Illegal immigrants do not get non-emergency care in this country and millions of citizens are effectively denied non-emergency care. The amount of people that are not-serviced here in America outnumbers any number of illegals not serviced in these other countries. Your immigration canard is a loser. In fact, it would save real resources for our economy if more of our immigrant population was out of the shadows and actively covered.Manhattan Buckeye;1588927 wrote:It is winning when I made it very clear that in "awesome" healthcare countries, they don't service everybody. If you are an Indian worker in Singapore and have a health issue, they will send you back to India. In the US, every ER outfit will take care of you....even the illegals.
God you're just making stuff up. We do not spend that much as a society on the immigrant population. Immigration adds more in wealth production because it grows the pie! We spend $1.1 billion on healthcare for illegals according to a RAND study. A drop in the bucket compared to the productivity they provide to our economy.
http://www.rand.org/news/press/2006/11/14.html
^^^The Fact that Societies gain more from Immigration is basically classical liberalism 101 and you call yourself a classical liberal!!! -
Manhattan BuckeyeWell at least you spelled immigration correctly, now try being one in Singapore, and don't tell me I'm making stuff up.
10 Claymore Hill is the American Club, just off Orchard. The Woodlands is where the American School is but many other American ex-pats live in the River Valley region and Bukit Timah. The Circle Line just opened a year or so ago and connects the three previous MRT lines, with the downtown line expected to open in a few years.
Oh, and Jumbo has the best chili crab - I prefer the Dempsey Hill location. See, when you aren't full of it and actually live there you can talk about it. And there are no South Asians ever at ex-pat hospitals. They get sent home. -
BoatShoesManhattan Buckeye;1588941 wrote:Well at least you spelled immigration correctly, now try being one in Singapore, and don't tell me I'm making stuff up.
10 Claymore Hill is the American Club, just off Orchard. The Woodlands is where the American School is but many other American ex-pats live in the River Valley region and Bukit Timah. The Circle Line just opened a year or so ago and connects the three previous MRT lines, with the downtown line expected to open in a few years.
Oh, and Jumbo has the best chili crab - I prefer the Dempsey Hill location. See, when you aren't full of it and actually live there you can talk about it. And there are no South Asians ever at ex-pat hospitals. They get sent home.
You made zero point and just told an anecdote about your personal life that nobody cares about.
Immigrant populations add more wealth and income to the United States than the consume in healthcare costs. In any event, publicly administered healthcare systems like in Singapore, Hong Kong, Canada and New Zealand are able to control costs precisely because of that type of administration. This would be true even if they had more libertarian immigration policies because the net gain in wealth to their societies in production would outweigh those costs.
It is socialism that allows those countries to control their costs. It is precisely the multiple routes of administration and cost shifting throughout the patchwork, privately administered U.S. healthcare system why costs are a problem. The costs of illegal immigration are a small burden compared to the costs from private, duplicitous administration. -
Manhattan BuckeyeNo, I made a point, I put you in your place and made you make a statement as dumb as this:
"It is socialism that allows those countries to control their costs."
Just go away. -
BoatShoes
You made zero point that was relevant. Your knowledge of wear a building is in Singapore has no bearing on your false assertion that the immigrant population in the United States is a huge burden on our health care system. That assertion is false.Manhattan Buckeye;1588943 wrote:No, I made a point, I put you in your place and made you make a statement as dumb as this:
"It is socialism that allows those countries to control their costs."
Just go away.
You are aware of the fact that the United States has the highest healthcare costs per capita in the world yes? You are also aware of the fact that countries with publicly administered health care have dramatically lower healthcare costs. Whether it is better for a society to have publicly administered health care is one thing. Maybe the just society is one where the poor who cannot buy healthcare do not get it and die in the streets. But it is not up for debate that countries with much more socialized health care delivery systems control their costs way better than we do. It's not even close. The fact that you would say "just go away" to this fact once again demonstrates your own ignorance. The complaint against these healthcare delivery systems is that they might require unfair taxes on the rich or inconveniences, etc. not that they are bad at controlling costs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita
If we had the health care expenditures of any other rich country we would be worried about perpetual Federal Budget Surpluses instead of Deficits! Nearly 18% of our GDP goes to healthcare expenditures. Trillions and Trillions of dollars and you claim that the $1.1 billion we spend on illegals is what is going to break the bank! LOL! -
Manhattan BuckeyeIt is where, not wear...and again you are embarrassing yourself.
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sleeper
The reason our healthcare is so expensive is because we have morons(read: Democrats and/or poor people) who come into the emergency room for a headache rather than just buying a $1 bottle of Advil and getting some rest. The solution to this problem is of course to deny healthcare to poor people like the socialists countries and thus drastically reduce cost for the people who actually pay for their healthcare.BoatShoes;1588988 wrote:You made zero point that was relevant. Your knowledge of wear a building is in Singapore has no bearing on your false assertion that the immigrant population in the United States is a huge burden on our health care system. That assertion is false.
You are aware of the fact that the United States has the highest healthcare costs per capita in the world yes? You are also aware of the fact that countries with publicly administered health care have dramatically lower healthcare costs. Whether it is better for a society to have publicly administered health care is one thing. Maybe the just society is one where the poor who cannot buy healthcare do not get it and die in the streets. But it is not up for debate that countries with much more socialized health care delivery systems control their costs way better than we do. It's not even close. The fact that you would say "just go away" to this fact once again demonstrates your own ignorance. The complaint against these healthcare delivery systems is that they might require unfair taxes on the rich or inconveniences, etc. not that they are bad at controlling costs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita
If we had the health care expenditures of any other rich country we would be worried about perpetual Federal Budget Surpluses instead of Deficits! Nearly 18% of our GDP goes to healthcare expenditures. Trillions and Trillions of dollars and you claim that the $1.1 billion we spend on illegals is what is going to break the bank! LOL! -
QuakerOatsBoatShoes;1588942 wrote:Immigrant populations add more wealth and income to the United States than the consume in healthcare costs.
LOL. Legal or illegal? And perhaps you should tell that to the doctors and the hospitals; I am sure it will be soothing. And don't forget to add in the medicaid crowd, especially the multi-generational group ............. I am sure the argument will be that they help fill excess capacity in the doc's office ............... hysterical. -
BoatShoes
A very constructive response indeed. You were ranting about "socialism" in the abstract but you apparently do not even know what it really is and then diverged to an easily refutable argument about immigration. As if it were even possible be embarrassed by posts on a message board.Manhattan Buckeye;1588989 wrote:It is where, not wear...and again you are embarrassing yourself.
Not unlike people who rip on you when you fail to properly quote another poster, etc. etc. If you're worried about minor grammatical errors on a message board people casually post on to kill time at work you're losing the argument. H0pe diz h3Lpz. -
BoatShoes
Socialist countries don't deny it to the poor per se but they do deny it to people who want to go to the doctor for no good reason.sleeper;1588991 wrote:The reason our healthcare is so expensive is because we have morons(read: Democrats and/or poor people) who come into the emergency room for a headache rather than just buying a $1 bottle of Advil and getting some rest. The solution to this problem is of course to deny healthcare to poor people like the socialists countries and thus drastically reduce cost for the people who actually pay for their healthcare. -
BoatShoes
The amount of GDP that immigrants to our country add, both illegal and legal, is greater than the amount of GDP devoted to their medical needs and it isn't even close. Hope this helps.QuakerOats;1589023 wrote:LOL. Legal or illegal? And perhaps you should tell that to the doctors and the hospitals; I am sure it will be soothing. And don't forget to add in the medicaid crowd, especially the multi-generational group ............. I am sure the argument will be that they help fill excess capacity in the doc's office ............... hysterical.