Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• Bigred1995

  

  Don't know if this has been posted yet, but here goes...
  [video=youtube;r2NnV-k4yL8][/video]
• stlouiedipalma

  Saint Ronnie wouldn't stand a chance as a Republican these days. The Teabaggers would think him way too liberal and replace him with the likes of either the witch from Delaware or the bitch from Alaska.
• derek bomar

  

  theres a difference between public and private sector unions...
  
  I mean shit, FDR was against them
  http://sweetness-light.com/archive/even-fdr-opposed-public-sector-unions
• BGFalcons82

  

  Bigred - thanks for posting video from the best President of my lifetime. As I listen, there is absolutely no way in hell the current occupier would EVER make a speech like this one. He would have to take a stand against communism/dictators/repression in order to pull it off and he believes in all of it.
  
  To equate the people of Poland's life and death struggles from 30 years ago to the current public union situations is assinine.
• Glory Days

  

  believer;730859 wrote:No bargaining? Oh you mean no anonymous union thugs making wage deals for intelligent folks who can bargain for themselves.

  
  so as a public employee, what can i bargain with to increase my pay or benefits if i feel i deserve it? the amount of people i arrest? i am sure the public would love that knowing i go around arresting people so i get paid more. then is what's next, me paying off the dispatchers to give me more calls to look more productive than the other officers? no matter how hard i work, i will never bring in more money like private sector emplyees can. i cant sell X number of widgets to increase the company's worth and earn that extra money.
• sleeper

  

  Glory Days;731150 wrote:so as a public employee, what can i bargain with to increase my pay or benefits if i feel i deserve it? the amount of people i arrest? i am sure the public would love that knowing i go around arresting people so i get paid more. then is what's next, me paying off the dispatchers to give me more calls to look more productive than the other officers? no matter how hard i work, i will never bring in more money like private sector emplyees can. i cant sell X number of widgets to increase the company's worth and earn that extra money.

  
  Once again, not every private sector employee has metrics that their supervisors evaluate them on. They find a way, and so will the public sector.
• Glory Days

  

  sleeper;731155 wrote:Once again, not every private sector employee has metrics that their supervisors evaluate them on. They find a way, and so will the public sector.

  like teaching a kid to swim by just throwing him in the deep end?
  
  and you are right, but i bet they get pay increases by experience. plus, its not even metrics, its budgets. employees in the private sector can work harder and the company becomes more profitable allowing all employees to make more money/benefits. how are firefighters supposed to bring more money to the department so they could get paid more?
• queencitybuckeye

  Glory Days;731247 wrote:like teaching a kid to swim by just throwing him in the deep end?
  
  and you are right, but i bet they get pay increases by experience. plus, its not even metrics, its budgets. employees in the private sector can work harder and the company becomes more profitable allowing all employees to make more money/benefits. how are firefighters supposed to bring more money to the department so they could get paid more?

  
  There's a huge subjective element to a ton of jobs in the private sector, and the labor marketplace seems to work reasonably well.
• Glory Days

  

  queencitybuckeye;731258 wrote:There's a huge subjective element to a ton of jobs in the private sector, and the labor marketplace seems to work reasonably well.

  
  You missed the point. good workers in the private sector increase a compay's profit allowing them to get paid more. that cant happen in the public sector.
• believer

  

  Glory Days;731332 wrote:You missed the point. good workers in the private sector increase a compay's profit allowing them to get paid more. that cant happen in the public sector.

  Bad workers in the public sector are nearly impossible to fire and still get paid more. Public sector employees may not contribute to profitability but they are accountable to the taxpayer. We should be allowed to fire them if they can't perform and reward them when the do.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Public sector workers can do lots of things that make their workplace run more effectively and efficiently. Evaluations aren't only about productivity in the sense that something is actually produced in quantity.
  
  Public employees can be productive workers by doing their tasks as effectively as they can.
  
  A policeman who helps prevent crime by working with communities to set up neighborhood watch groups is being productive -- just as is a police officer (or detective) who solves a crime. If the police are being effective in a community, they are making it more difficult for criminals to commit crimes and get away with it.
  
  Firemen can be more effective and productive by doing outreach to create safer homes through education programs that deal with fire safety, properly using smoke and carbon monoxide monitors, and teaching folks how to properly store combustibles, check wiring, and similar tasks.
  
  How they work within their teams, how their teams get along with other groups in the police station or firehouse are also areas that are important to helping keep costs down and efficiency high.
  
  I'm sure there are lots of things that both police officers and fire fighters think are mundane tasks that if not done well could lead to ineffective or inefficient actions that could literally kill the people they are sworn to serve and protect.
  
  I honestly don't know why some of you are so afraid of this law and a new way of evaluating employees that doesn't simply involve giving raises to the guy or gal who has been there the longest. Having taken up space longer than someone else isn't a reason to be rewarded when there are no doubt countless tasks done every day that are important to the efficient officer or firefighter.
  
  You all have supervisors now, so it won't be a big change to have those supervisors simply using those same evaluations they've likely been doing all along, and having them become part of the process that determines who gets raises and when.
  
  Honestly, I don't see things being that different -- except you won't be getting an automatic 4 percent (or so) increase on the anniversary of your hiring, or a raise based solely on how long you've been there. Yeah, you'll likely miss getting those raises for doing nothing more than existing, but restructuring things now is going to be less painful than the whole system breaking down later when there simply isn't the tax base to support it, and jobs have to be eliminated.
• dwccrew

  

  Glory Days;731247 wrote:like teaching a kid to swim by just throwing him in the deep end?
  
  and you are right, but i bet they get pay increases by experience. plus, its not even metrics, its budgets. employees in the private sector can work harder and the company becomes more profitable allowing all employees to make more money/benefits. how are firefighters supposed to bring more money to the department so they could get paid more?

  Glory Days;731332 wrote:You missed the point. good workers in the private sector increase a compay's profit allowing them to get paid more. that cant happen in the public sector.

  Police officers and firefighters (to a lesser extent) can make communities safer and more desireable to live in. This would help attract businesses and residents to move into the community and increase tax revenue, thus increasing budgets.
• sleeper

  

  Glory Days;731247 wrote:like teaching a kid to swim by just throwing him in the deep end?
  
  and you are right, but i bet they get pay increases by experience. plus, its not even metrics, its budgets. employees in the private sector can work harder and the company becomes more profitable allowing all employees to make more money/benefits. how are firefighters supposed to bring more money to the department so they could get paid more?

  
  Do a good job. If the firefighters do a good job, tax payers will value their service and want to pay their hard earned to keep a strong fire department. If a particular community doesn't value their fire department enough, they will elect to not pay as much taxes and therefore the fire department will be of lower quality(since it won't attract the talent with the lower salaries). If you're a good firefighter, you will find a job that clears at the market level, earning the salary that you deserve. That's how it works everywhere else, cry all you want, time for reality.
  

  Police officers and firefighters (to a lesser extent) can make communities safer and more desireable to live in. This would help attract businesses and residents to move into the community and increase tax revenue, thus increasing budgets.

  Also this.
• O-Trap

  

  BGFalcons82;731082 wrote:To equate the people of Poland's life and death struggles from 30 years ago to the current public union situations is assinine.

  This was what I was going to say. It's true.
  

  Glory Days;731247 wrote:i bet they get pay increases by experience.

  At some places of business, that is indeed the common practice. However, it is NOT required, and if said employer determines that it is simply not feasible that year, it doesn't happen.
  
  In most cases, however, it's not years of experience, but years of quality performance. If you skate by for 15 years, barely avoiding losing your job, you will NOT receive the same pay increases as someone who has put in 15 years of what management deems stellar performance.
• mella

  dwccrew;731388 wrote:Police officers and firefighters (to a lesser extent) can make communities safer and more desireable to live in. This would help attract businesses and residents to move into the community and increase tax revenue, thus increasing budgets.

  Good teachers create good schools which helps to create good communities, which attracts residents to move into the area.
• Glory Days

  

  Writerbuckeye;731387 wrote:Public sector workers can do lots of things that make their workplace run more effectively and efficiently. Evaluations aren't only about productivity in the sense that something is actually produced in quantity.
  Public employees can be productive workers by doing their tasks as effectively as they can.
  A policeman who helps prevent crime by working with communities to set up neighborhood watch groups is being productive -- just as is a police officer (or detective) who solves a crime. If the police are being effective in a community, they are making it more difficult for criminals to commit crimes and get away with it.
  Firemen can be more effective and productive by doing outreach to create safer homes through education programs that deal with fire safety, properly using smoke and carbon monoxide monitors, and teaching folks how to properly store combustibles, check wiring, and similar tasks.
  How they work within their teams, how their teams get along with other groups in the police station or firehouse are also areas that are important to helping keep costs down and efficiency high.
  I'm sure there are lots of things that both police officers and fire fighters think are mundane tasks that if not done well could lead to ineffective or inefficient actions that could literally kill the people they are sworn to serve and protect.
  I honestly don't know why some of you are so afraid of this law and a new way of evaluating employees that doesn't simply involve giving raises to the guy or gal who has been there the longest. Having taken up space longer than someone else isn't a reason to be rewarded when there are no doubt countless tasks done every day that are important to the efficient officer or firefighter.
  You all have supervisors now, so it won't be a big change to have those supervisors simply using those same evaluations they've likely been doing all along, and having them become part of the process that determines who gets raises and when.
  Honestly, I don't see things being that different -- except you won't be getting an automatic 4 percent (or so) increase on the anniversary of your hiring, or a raise based solely on how long you've been there. Yeah, you'll likely miss getting those raises for doing nothing more than existing, but restructuring things now is going to be less painful than the whole system breaking down later when there simply isn't the tax base to support it, and jobs have to be eliminated.

  So how does that police officer who does what you stated get paid more? Take money away from the other police officers when another officer starts exceeding standards? Plus those things you stated, are already handled by specific officers in the department(officers who learned their trade and job over time and experience). what about officers who enforce traffic? How would they be productive? Writing more tickets? I see that going over well.
  
  You act like cops and firefighters don’t do those things you’ve listed now because they will get paid the same if they do or don’t.
  
  

  dwccrew;731388 wrote:Police officers and firefighters (to a lesser extent) can make communities safer and more desireable to live in. This would help attract businesses and residents to move into the community and increase tax revenue, thus increasing budgets.

  This doesnt happen overnight and can take decades. Plus, when police etc crack down on crime, there is often backlash from citizens. police and firefighters are only a small piece of the pie.
  
  and what about when that community does turn around and crime goes down. should cop's pay go down too since there is less to do?
  

  sleeper;731396 wrote:Do a good job. If the firefighters do a good job, tax payers will value their service and want to pay their hard earned to keep a strong fire department. If a particular community doesn't value their fire department enough, they will elect to not pay as much taxes and therefore the fire department will be of lower quality(since it won't attract the talent with the lower salaries). If you're a good firefighter, you will find a job that clears at the market level, earning the salary that you deserve. That's how it works everywhere else, cry all you want, time for reality.

  except there are only X number of fireman(and jobs). you cant exactly pick up and take your talent's elsewhere. just because something works everywhere else, doesnt mean it works here. cry all you want, this is reality.

  mella;731408 wrote:Good teachers create good schools which helps to create good communities, which attracts residents to move into the area.

  
  you ever been to an inner city school? its a hell of a lot more than just good teachers that create good communities.
• Glory Days

  

  dwccrew;731388 wrote:Police officers and firefighters (to a lesser extent) can make communities safer and more desireable to live in. This would help attract businesses and residents to move into the community and increase tax revenue, thus increasing budgets.

  This doesnt happen overnight and can take decades. Plus, when police etc crack down on crime, there is often backlash from citizens. police and firefighters are only a small piece of the pie.
  
  and what about when that community does turn around and crime goes down. should cop's pay go down too since there is less to do?
• Glory Days

  

  sleeper;731396 wrote:Do a good job. If the firefighters do a good job, tax payers will value their service and want to pay their hard earned to keep a strong fire department. If a particular community doesn't value their fire department enough, they will elect to not pay as much taxes and therefore the fire department will be of lower quality(since it won't attract the talent with the lower salaries). If you're a good firefighter, you will find a job that clears at the market level, earning the salary that you deserve. That's how it works everywhere else, cry all you want, time for reality.

  except there are only X number of fireman(and jobs). you cant exactly pick up and take your talent's elsewhere. just because something works everywhere else, doesnt mean it works here. cry all you want, this is reality.
• Glory Days

  

  mella;731408 wrote:Good teachers create good schools which helps to create good communities, which attracts residents to move into the area.

  
  you ever been to an inner city school? its a hell of a lot more than just good teachers that create good communities.
• Glory Days

  

  Dwccrew- Do you think this should also be applied to the military pay system? No union, but pay increases by time in service, not merit.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  The more I read in this thread it seems that economic reality in the U.S. isn't taught well by either our education system or by parents. Certainly you should strive to do the best you can at any job - but strong performance (and certainly not seniority alone) guarantees a strong or even stable income - in either the public or private sector, and it should be obvious to anyone under 45 that the concept of retirement is a pipe dream.
  
  This is the cold reality, when you take any job it should dawn upon you who pays your salary, and how they pay your salary. You can be the best performer at your company but if your company goes under, so does your compensation. Likewise if you work for the government and the taxbase takes a hit (which it has pretty much everywhere in the U.S. for the last 4 years) you can't expect things to continue without a hitch. You are paid by the government - the government pays your salary through taxes - the tax receipts have fallen considerably due to lower housing values and heavy unemployment, and many jurisdictions are running significant deficits.
• cbus4life

  I know i'm never retiring, but that is ok, dying surrounded by books in the basement of some old library sounds good to me.
• sleeper

  

  except there are only X number of fireman(and jobs). you cant exactly pick up and take your talent's elsewhere. just because something works everywhere else, doesnt mean it works here. cry all you want, this is reality.

  And there are only X number of any job out there but the private sector seems to handle it just fine. And yes you can just pick up and move elsewhere if you don't feel you are being paid a fair wage. This happens all the time in the private sector. Is it fair? No, but welcome to the real world.
• Glory Days

  

  sleeper;731474 wrote:And there are only X number of any job out there but the private sector seems to handle it just fine. And yes you can just pick up and move elsewhere if you don't feel you are being paid a fair wage. This happens all the time in the private sector. Is it fair? No, but welcome to the real world.

  
  X number of jobs in the private sector? how so, you can create jobs, start new companies, expand etc. doesnt really happen in the public sector.
  
  and no, you cant just pick up and go elsewhere. there is only one police department or fire department per city. its not like an accountant that could work and several different types of companies etc.
• sleeper

  

  Glory Days;731507 wrote:X number of jobs in the private sector? how so, you can create jobs, start new companies, expand etc. doesnt really happen in the public sector.
  
  and no, you cant just pick up and go elsewhere. there is only one police department or fire department per city. its not like an accountant that could work and several different types of companies etc.

  
  You clearly don't understand how labor economics function(or honestly any sense of economics judging by your posts). If you can't get the wage you feel you deserve from being a firefighter, then clearly the market for firefighters is either A) over saturated(thus producing lower salaries), or B)the tax payers in that locality do not want to pay extra for a strong firefighting unit. In situation A, you shouldn't have become a firefighter, you can flip burgers like the people that thought you could screw in a widget for $27/hour(or go back to school). In situation B, you can find another department/city that will pay you the wage you feel you deserve.
  
  This is reality, I'm sorry that you are now just realizing this. People in the private sector have to deal with this all the time, why should you be any different?