Ohio Chatter DEV

O-Trap

bonelizzard;686448 wrote:ok, let me see if I can word this properly? So all employees in the private sector can say specifically to the employer what wage they want to earn?

Yes. Any private sector employee can say, "I want to make $XX,XXX a year." From that point, it becomes a negotiation. If the employer says, "Well, I typically only pay a person in your position $XX,XXX annually to start out," you then have options. You can give up and walk away. You can stand firm at your asking price, hoping that your employer perceives you at that actual value. Or, you can negotiate somewhere in between.

Often, what people will do will be that they will negotiate a little bit MORE than what they actually want. If they get it, great. If they get negotiated down, the odds are still better that they get closer to the actual pay they want. Similarly, an employer might try to low-ball an employee. It's all a giant chess game, but it's one that anybody can play if they have a perceived value of themselves, and they take the time to research and put that into tangible terms.

bonelizzard;686716 wrote:Does that mean all private sector folks can negotiate their own contracts?

Again, yes. They don't always get whatever they ask for (if they did, then hell, ask for a million dollars), but they are all able to negotiate their own contracts, from CEOs to servers at Burget King.

bonelizzard;686716 wrote:Personally I like strength in numbers.. Being a team player. That's not condescending is it? I see your a football fan.. Looks like you like teams too. Not a slam, not personal just my opinion..

Hardly the same. Do you earn a paycheck so that the team can eat, or so that your own family can?

However, that was always something I liked about baseball. Perfect balance between teamwork and personal accomplishment.

bonelizzard

yes, unions are a team. Yes, sports team do work hard but not necessarily want to defeat their opponents. (depends on what team, sport and age) So, defeating your opponent doesn't always have to be that sports team goal. That can be difficult for some to believe, but at certain ages kids just play the game for fun and to learn the sport, also to get along with others. So, using this example yes you are a part of a team, getting along with each other and coming to terms that everyone likes. My team and yours, all playing nice together. IMO

O-Trap

bonelizzard;686804 wrote:So the first time employee at McDonalds can negotiate with his boss whether he makes minimum wage or let's say $30.00/hr?

Yes he can. He can negotiate that. Whether he gets it or not is a separate issue, but he can negotiate for it.

bonelizzard;686804 wrote:Hey probably not the best example, but an example of a private sector job nonetheless. I also suppose that the new McDonald's want to be could ask his employer that question but you know as well as I that he would be laughed right out of that restaurant.

Most likely, yes, because the pay at which he has valued himself would not likely be accurate. An individual negotiating that would be equitable to a collective negotiation to pay each 12-year teacher $1,000,000 in total compensation annually. The value simply isn't there, and whether it's one person or a bunch of them, at that point, you're going to get yourself laughed right out of the negotiation, and will no longer be taken seriously.

bonelizzard

WebFire;686816 wrote:Way to use extremes to try and validate your argument. You know damn well what they mean.

easy there Web, no swearing.. Is McDonalds' not a private sector job? Just asking. not extreme.

O-Trap

bonelizzard;686822 wrote:yes, unions are a team.

In a sense, yes. Same as my office. My department all functions as a team, but that doesn't mean that I'm working to make sure everyone else can eat. I'm working to make sure there is food on the table in MY house. Part of being good at a job is being able to function as a team. The teamwork is the means, not the ends.

bonelizzard;686822 wrote:Yes, sports team do work hard but not necessarily want to defeat their opponents. (depends on what team, sport and age) So, defeating your opponent doesn't always have to be that sports team goal.

Wait ... huh? You don't always play to win? I suppose if you're playing a young child in H.O.R.S.E. you might not be trying to win (but then, you're still "trying" to do something ... so if you succeed, aren't you still winning?).

bonelizzard;686822 wrote:That can be difficult for some to believe, but at certain ages kids just play the game for fun and to learn the sport, also to get along with others. So, using this example yes you are a part of a team, getting along with each other and coming to terms that everyone likes. My team and yours, all playing nice together. IMO

So when I played little league, and we were all members of a team, if we all wanted to be the pitcher (we all did), we all should be allowed to pitch, right? That is, after all, a term that everyone would've liked.

The fact is, though baseball (like any sport) is a team game, there are differences between players. Someone bats first and someone has to bat last. Someone gets to start at shortstop, and someone has to be a utility outfielder that sits on the bench most games. At the "professional" level (see what I did there?), some get paid more than others, based on skills, work ethic, results, etc.

Those aren't any less examples of a team, but a team is made up of many parts ... positions usually. Within those position players are strengths and weaknesses. They aren't always calculable, but they're there, nonetheless. At a professional level, it would be unjust to pay them all the same salary, whether they were a perennial MVP candidate or a utility infielder whose batting average flirts with the Mendoza line.

dwccrew

bonelizzard;686804 wrote:So the first time employee at McDonalds can negotiate with his boss whether he makes minimum wage or let's say $30.00/hr? Hey probably not the best example, but an example of a private sector job nonetheless. I also suppose that the new McDonald's want to be could ask his employer that question but you know as well as I that he would be laughed right out of that restaurant. I know that first year teachers can join their union and discuss wages amongst their fellow union memebers. Right?

Technically, yes a McD's employee could negotiate; however, it doesn't necessarily mean they will get $30 an hour. But you're not comparing apples to apples here. If you are going to compare someone in the private sector negotiating a contract with an employer, let's use a profession in which a college degree is a requirement for employment. Also, McD's hourly positions generally are clearly stated before someone is hired. It is not the same as a contractual employee. But again, let's use some commone sense in the analogy. Do not compare educated professionals like teachers to McD's employees when it comes to negotiating contracts.

bonelizzard;686822 wrote:yes, unions are a team. Yes, sports team do work hard but not necessarily want to defeat their opponents. (depends on what team, sport and age) So, defeating your opponent doesn't always have to be that sports team goal. That can be difficult for some to believe, but at certain ages kids just play the game for fun and to learn the sport, also to get along with others. So, using this example yes you are a part of a team, getting along with each other and coming to terms that everyone likes. My team and yours, all playing nice

Sports teams don't want to defeat their opponents? So now you're going to use children's sports as an analogy to how CBAs and unions should negotiate? Is your argument becoming so difficult to support that you have to use these horrible analogies? Gangs are teams. A military unit is a team. A union is a team. There is sports teams. How all these teams interact is not at all the same and should not be used to compare one to another or as analogies.

We have drifted very far away from the issue at hand. The fact of the matter is that communities CAN'T afford to pay all the benefits and salaries anymore. Something is going to have to give. In prosperous economic times, people vote and pass levies to fund schools and pay teachers. When the economy is down and people are facing downtrodden financial situations, they will not pass these levies to fund and increase spending within schools, government, etc. Therefore, the people that rely on public funding to pay their salaries and benefits should expect to take certain concessions; just like those of us in the private sector expected and have taken concessions when our sources of revenue have decreased.

It's not an attack on public sector employees, it's simple economics. Trickle down effect. Private sector pays your salary. When the private sector gets hit financially, rest assured you will too.

majorspark

bonelizzard;686359 wrote:I said Constitutional right didn’t I? Well what I meant to say was “American Right” See I talk far much better than I type. Because I deal with people and kids, not keyboards. Haven’t avoided the question, just haven’t been on here much lately. I feel that we as Americans because we live in a free country can or should be able to collectively bargain wages, salaries, benefits etc. Private sector or public, doesn’t make a difference to me.

I agree you have a right to collectively bargain under both the US constitution and the Ohio state constitution. You have the right to collectively bargain with federal, state, local, and private entities. I'll back you up on that. What you do not have a right to is a monopoly of employment options these entities have to pool their employees from.

If the elected representivives of the people of the state of Ohio seek to pool their emplyees in a different manner so be it. Whether the employer is public or private their representatives have the authority to decide who best to serve their purpose. It could be a collective entity or many individual entities. It just depends on the bottom line.

The reality is the money is just not there any more. I have yet to vote a school levy down. The last one failed in my district. They will try again in May. I doubt it makes it. I have heard from many they will not vote for it. I will vote for it again but I understand for many the money is just not there for them to give.

bonelizzard

Morning fellas, I see by the time on the threads that you were up late posting on the chatter. I guess that we could debate about what time is a late time I suppose. Hope that doesn't sound condescending but to some it may. Facts are facts. I was in bed after my last post so I could be fresh for your kids today at school. McDonald's employees are uneducated people? I hope that you don't get coffee at McD.s O trap and Dw, I don't read all of your posts to be honest. You make a statement and then you both go off on some sort of tangent to try and sound highly educated. Fact is no matter what I say about whatever you guys will have some sort of answer or debate or write a thesis statement. No matter the circumstances I will always be wrong and you will always be right. no matter the topic.. even youth sports teams for crying out loud.. why can't I use kids sports teams as an analogy for a union? Is that immature?
Off to work now to teach your kids. If you respond I'll do a better job and try really hard to read all of your post. Have to admit it's really hard for me to do.
I bet everyone reads all of my posts.. All 7 of us...Hey some might say that's condescending, but it's the truth. truth hurts.. Bad Guy Bonelizzard

CenterBHSFan

Ok, this is getting kinda stupid. There's some trolling going on here, I suspect.

ernest_t_bass

CenterBHSFan;686895 wrote:Ok, this is getting kinda stupid. There's some trolling going on here, I suspect.

Agreed... From both sides. It's all rhetoric now.

CenterBHSFan

ernest_t_bass;686896 wrote:Agreed... From both sides. It's all rhetoric now.

Speaking of rhetoric...

Ernest, have you started your planning of selling your new house and looking at used trailers yet so you can move in one with your parents??

ernest_t_bass

CenterBHSFan;686899 wrote:Speaking of rhetoric...

Ernest, have you started your planning of selling your new house and looking at used trailers yet so you can move in one with your parents??

LOL. I'm in the process of renting our current house (keeping it on the market... I don't want to be a landlord) and we close on our house on February 28. Possession in 14 days, so I'll be busy, busy, busy in about three weeks. I'll have a new house to get ready, coaching softball, refereeing tournament, masters class... then a wife and two kids on top of that. FUN!

jmog

bonelizzard;686417 wrote:ok, my opinion. just like your opinion too.. but wouldn't you like to have an opinion on your working contract? private sector, public sector where ever you may work? I bet you would if you could.. just not willing to say it, oops, type it.. my opinion..

You can't be serious about that, you do realize that those of us without unions "have a say" in our working "contract" right? We actually represent ourselves when negotiating our salary, raises, etc.

jmog

bonelizzard;686448 wrote:ok, let me see if I can word this properly? So all employees in the private sector can say specifically to the employer what wage they want to earn?

Absolutely, it is then the employers decision if the employee is worth what they are asking for. We all negotiate our own salaries upon being hired, and then discuss raises at each yearly appraisal.

It's not that difficult to understand really.

O-Trap

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:Morning fellas, I see by the time on the threads that you were up late posting on the chatter. I guess that we could debate about what time is a late time I suppose. Hope that doesn't sound condescending but to some it may. Facts are facts.

Nah, I have a pretty rigid routine. Turn off the machines and get ready for bed at as close to 1:00AM as possible, and I'm always up at 6:30AM to take care of the dogs. When you work two jobs, you suck it up, because it comes with the territory.

On the plus side, between my two jobs yesterday, I earned about $1,000 before taxes, so it was a good day, and it was using -Society-'s advice (don't tell him I said that).

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:I was in bed after my last post so I could be fresh for your kids today at school.

Though I don't have kids, I appreciate your dedication to the future of our society. Dedicated teachers who educate our students effectively are not my contention with the system. I cannot say that enough, so I first thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for not being a leech.

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:McDonald's employees are uneducated people? I hope that you don't get coffee at McD.s

I certainly didn't say that (I probably missed who did). To be fair, though, a McDonald's employee likely has less education, on average, than most full-time employees who aren't in the fast food industry. By the nature of the job, that's just a probability. Doesn't mean that their job isn't good for the economy or that they couldn't do well beyond that. I just know that most places try not to hire people who are overqualified (believe me) for positions, as overqualified employees tend not to stay very long with a company.

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:O trap and Dw, I don't read all of your posts to be honest.

It's okay. Reading is annoying anyway.

(kidding, of course)

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:You make a statement and then you both go off on some sort of tangent to try and sound highly educated.

To be truthful, my posts here haven't, to my knowledge, left the specific point I address in the quote. As such, I certainly don't knowingly do so. I do tend to follow an intellectual musing from time to time, though, so forgive me if that is the case.

As far as sounding highly educated, I'm not. I have a Bachelors degree. That's all. I took my education seriously for the majority of my college career, and I still do, but I'm not trying to sound a certain way. I'm addressing the topic at hand in a manner that I think it deserves. That's all.

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:Fact is no matter what I say about whatever you guys will have some sort of answer or debate or write a thesis statement.

Thesis statements tend to be short. I'm unfortunately notorious for not being able to explain myself concisely (I do my best to be clear though).

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:No matter the circumstances I will always be wrong and you will always be right. no matter the topic.. even youth sports teams for crying out loud.. why can't I use kids sports teams as an analogy for a union? Is that immature?

Your first comment is logically fallacious to an extreme. You and I disagree on this topic. Thus far, I don't know that I've ever seen any posts on any other topics from you, so I can't say what we might or might not agree on, but to use a hasty conclusion fallacy (see also "hasty generalization" or "argumentum a silentio") here is quite a leap.

I answered you in terms of sports teams, because when you explained your use of it as a simile, it made more sense why you used it.

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:Off to work now to teach your kids. If you respond I'll do a better job and try really hard to read all of your post. Have to admit it's really hard for me to do.
I bet everyone reads all of my posts.. All 7 of us...Hey some might say that's condescending, but it's the truth. truth hurts.. Bad Guy Bonelizzard

I do read all your posts. When engaging someone in discussion, I always try to hear out the entirety of their points.

I didn't see or hear anything condescending, though. Not sure what you meant by that. Either way, have a great day. I hope the kids are well-behaved.

ernest_t_bass

jmog;686916 wrote:You can't be serious about that, you do realize that those of us without unions "have a say" in our working "contract" right? We actually represent ourselves when negotiating our salary, raises, etc.

I will say that I think a difference could be that individually negotiated contracts often involve different work. My wife negotiates her own raises, but she is in accounts payable. She does completely different work that the engineers, accounts rec, purchasing, managers, shop floor. (She works at a medical equipment manufacturer). Now, of all those, I can see there being bases for everything else. There are a lot of engineers, so many of them would have to be on the same level, I would assume. The shop floor, however, I could see them all being paid the same, or have raises based on experience (like teaching field). Yeah, you can give team leaders more pay, etc., but I don't think you just give raises to give raises on that shop floor.

I'll compare the shop floor to teachers, as they (generally) all do the same work. Both groups need to collectively work together to make sure the overall mission is complete, and there work is closely related. There are different groups in a school system, and each of them I see should be negotiated as a group:

Groups
Classified Maintenance and custodial
Classified kitchen workers
Classified bus drivers
Classified secretaries (if there are a lot)
Certified teachers (who also negotiate supplementals)
Certified administrators (base)

Individual
Administrators each negotiate their pay w/ BOE based on experience, etc.
Supers
Treasurers and assts.
Head of kitchen
Head of maintenance and custodial
Secretaries (if there are few)
Tech workers (if they are not a part of teaching contract)
Guidance (same as above)
School nurses

ernest_t_bass

O-Trap, stop typing damn books!

jmog

bonelizzard;686716 wrote:Does that mean all private sector folks can negotiate their own contracts? How and/or what way am I being so sensitive? Please elaborate? We're not having a mature discussion? This isn't a mature thread? Elaborate on that one too if you don't mind.

Personally I like strength in numbers.. Being a team player. That's not condescending is it? I see your a football fan.. Looks like you like teams too. Not a slam, not personal just my opinion..

Actually if you are a great teacher, you should like having your own voice in your contract instead of a collective voice that gets lumped in with average and bad teachers alike.

Yes, every private sector employee can negotiate their contract, that doesn't mean that every employer will "budge".

I'll giev a real example. When I left my last company and came to my new one I negotiated a 30+% raise compared to the last place I worked. My current employer did not want to go any higher due to others in the company doing the same work for longer making around the same, so I negotiated an extra week's vacation (started at 3 instead of 2).

I'm a family man so the extra 5 days at home or on vacation with my wife and kids was well worth it.

jmog

bonelizzard;686804 wrote:So the first time employee at McDonalds can negotiate with his boss whether he makes minimum wage or let's say $30.00/hr? Hey probably not the best example, but an example of a private sector job nonetheless. I also suppose that the new McDonald's want to be could ask his employer that question but you know as well as I that he would be laughed right out of that restaurant. I know that first year teachers can join their union and discuss wages amongst their fellow union memebers. Right?

Did you really just compare 1st year teachers with McDonald's workers?

I hope you don't teach in the district I live in and send my kids to.

Let's compare 1st year teachers with say, 1st year bachelor degree'd professionals like engineers, business majors, etc.

Yes, an engineer most definitely negotiates their starting salary, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Of course your absurd example of McDonald's worker asking for $30/h, if a 1st year engineer asked for $200k/yr salary they'd be laughed at too. You have to be realistic in your bargaining in the private sector and have an idea what the market demand is for your specialty.

ernest_t_bass

jmog;686926 wrote:Actually if you are a great teacher, you should like having your own voice in your contract instead of a collective voice that gets lumped in with average and bad teachers alike.

I actually don't mind it, as a base. My beef is the good evaluations of those poor teachers... it happens. And that falls on the administrators.

If we are going to see stiff arm tactics, I want it to be aimed at eliminating tenure and stop giving the union so much power over the elimination process... so long as the paper trail is there.

Admin - "Look, this teacher sucks. We have many evaluations that show it, and many testimonies. We've tried to help her, but she hasn't improved. Here is our proof."
Union - "OK."

or...
Admin - "This teacher sucks b/c people said so. I don't have a bad eval, but we want to get rid of her b/c people don't like her."
Union - "Aw, HELL NO!"

O-Trap

ernest_t_bass;686925 wrote:O-Trap, stop typing damn books!

That was only about 500 words.

Pretty sure the discussions that jmog, nchsbuckeye, Bigred95, and I used to have on TOS wouldn't see posts under 10,000 words for over a page. It was awful.

dwccrew

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:McDonald's employees are uneducated people? I hope that you don't get coffee at McD.s

Where did anyone say that? I clearly stated that it wasn't a fair comparison to compare educated professionals, like teachers, to McD's employees. Teachers are required to have higher education, McD's employees are not. So I am not sure where you read that McD's employees are uneducated. They very well could be educated, but their job doesn't require it so comparing the negotiation process is a moot point.

bonelizzard;686885 wrote: O trap and Dw, I don't read all of your posts to be honest. You make a statement and then you both go off on some sort of tangent to try and sound highly educated.

What? Not really, we both try to support our arguments without making rhetoric statements using clear and concise statements.

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:Fact is no matter what I say about whatever you guys will have some sort of answer or debate or write a thesis statement. No matter the circumstances I will always be wrong and you will always be right. no matter the topic.. even youth sports teams for crying out loud.. why can't I use kids sports teams as an analogy for a union? Is that immature?

No, you won't necessarily be wrong if you actually had addressed the questions people posed to you instead of trying tom come up with analogies that make no sense. Children's sports teams to unions? Really? Come on, can't you come up with an analogy that makes more sense. About the only thing those two have in common is they work together for a common goal. However, the goal and the means to get there are not even close to being the same. But children on a sports team compared to adults in a union? I'm wondering if you were grading a paper and a student used a ridiculous analogy like that how you would grade the paper.

bonelizzard;686885 wrote:Off to work now to teach your kids. If you respond I'll do a better job and try really hard to read all of your post. Have to admit it's really hard for me to do.
I bet everyone reads all of my posts.. All 7 of us...Hey some might say that's condescending, but it's the truth. truth hurts.. Bad Guy Bonelizzard

I don't have children yet (still consider myself too young at 28) so I doubt you'd be teaching my children. That and I also plan on sending them to private school even if it bankrupts me.

jmog;686929 wrote:Did you really just compare 1st year teachers with McDonald's workers?

I hope you don't teach in the district I live in and send my kids to.

Let's compare 1st year teachers with say, 1st year bachelor degree'd professionals like engineers, business majors, etc.

Yes, an engineer most definitely negotiates their starting salary, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Of course your absurd example of McDonald's worker asking for $30/h, if a 1st year engineer asked for $200k/yr salary they'd be laughed at too. You have to be realistic in your bargaining in the private sector and have an idea what the market demand is for your specialty.

Don't even try. If you read through this thread you'll see how he/she is trolling. I doubt this poster is even a teacher. Has nothing really of substance to add to the debate except to attempt to make horrible analogies or accuse Otrap and myself of writing a thesis and making ourselves sound highly educated. LOL

dwccrew

CenterBHSFan;686895 wrote:Ok, this is getting kinda stupid. There's some trolling going on here, I suspect.

I think you are right. I am done trying to engage with certain posters who seem to have the inability to have rational and logical conversation. Actually, almost everyone on the pro-CBA side has actually made some good arguments (although I still fully support SB5) except for 1 in particular. I think many on the pro-CBA side realize this and have not really agreed or validated that poster's responses. That 1, as you said, is just trolling.

O-Trap

dwccrew;687000 wrote:Children's sports teams to unions? Really? Come on, can't you come up with an analogy that makes more sense.

I actually think this analogy can be legitimate, but the problem is, when you extrapolate a sports team to a professional level (as we're speaking about a profession here: teaching), some will get more playing time than others because they're better. They'll also typically be paid better because they have more to offer and bring it to the negotiations table. Just because a perennial MVP candidate plays all 162 games and makes eight figures a year, while a benchwarmer who sees 10 at bats all year and makes $500,000 a year, it doesn't mean they aren't on the same team, playing for the same goal.

WebFire

One thing I'd like to hear explained...

I keep seeing teachers and firefighters posting about taking a 40% paycut and being paid close to minimum wage, blah blah blah. I get that some are just being extreme to support their cause, but where has anything been said that anyone would get a paycut?

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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!