Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• I Wear Pants

  ernest_t_bass;686254 wrote:I'm saying I want to look everywhere.

  Everywhere translates to "elsewhere".
• I Wear Pants

  centralbucksfan;686260 wrote:Its not only clear, its pretty proven it does NOTHING. Look at the studies!! More FACTS!
  
  http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/NCPI_POINT_Findings.xml
  
  http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-09-21-merit-pay_N.htm

  
  For the millionth time. Merit based pay != pay based on test scores.
  
  No one is suggesting that. We're suggesting that there be a method to evaluate and reward quality teachers while not rewarding/removing bad teachers.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  I Wear Pants;686262 wrote:Everywhere translates to "elsewhere".

  
  LOL. I'm just going to give you my keyboard, since you want to say things for me, and change what I'm saying to fit your own side better.
• O-Trap

  

  centralbucksfan;686249 wrote:Only 5 states do NOT have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
  South Carolina -50th
  North Carolina -49th
  Georgia -48th
  Texas -47th
  ......Virginia -44th
  Wisconsin -- WITH its collective bargaining for teachers -- is ranked 2nd in the country. Let's keep it that way.
  
  And you can see where education will be headed in the state of Ohio if this bill passes. FACTS!!

  I Wear Pants;686253 wrote:Correlation != causation.

  
  Thank you.
  
  I think I'm going to prove something the same way.
  
  At the point of the year in which people drink the most hot chocolate on average, there is the least violent crime taking place.
  
  Therefore, WE MUST DRINK MORE HOT CHOCOLATE TO PREVENT VIOLENT CRIME! :rolleyes:
• ernest_t_bass

  

  I Wear Pants;686263 wrote:No one is suggesting that. We're suggesting that there be a method to evaluate and reward quality teachers while not rewarding/removing bad teachers.

  
  There is a thread for MBP. The problem with it is that it is "undefined."
• O-Trap

  

  ernest_t_bass;686261 wrote:The thing is, there ARE ways to get rid of poor teachers. It just takes time and effort. Many (MANY) admins just say "screw it."

  
  Those administrations need removed.
• sleeper

  

  ernest_t_bass;686266 wrote:There is a thread for MBP. The problem with it is that it is "undefined."

  
  And so are a lot of private sector jobs but they seem to be able to handle it just fine.
  

  At the point of the year in which people drink the most hot chocolate on average, there is the least violent crime taking place.
  
  Therefore, WE MUST DRINK MORE HOT CHOCOLATE TO PREVENT VIOLENT CRIME!

  Eating ice cream causes Polio.
• O-Trap

  

  sleeper;686268 wrote:And so are a lot of private sector jobs but they seem to be able to handle it just fine.

  Exactly.
  

  sleeper;686268 wrote:Eating ice cream causes Polio.

  IF YOU DON'T EAT ICE CREAM, YOU ARE TRYING TO GET ALL THE LITTLE CHILDREN SICK WITH POLIO!!!
• centralbucksfan

  jmog;685966 wrote:Since you want to be compared with "highly educated professionals" lets do that.
  
  1. Teachers are about the only college educated career I can think of that is unionized, everyone else with BS or higher (engineers, doctors, lawyers, actuaries, businessmen, etc represent themselves in contract negotiations. So, if you want to be compared to everyone else with a college degree, get rid of your union first. You, on one hand, poke fun at those who "turn screws" and then on the other want to keep your union when typically unions represent those who "turn screws".
  
  2. The average BS degree'd person, regardless of degree, averages about $52k right now (averaging out all lvls of experience), for a full year's work (240 work days, 52x5 then subtract out 10 holidays and 10 vacation days). An average teacher in Ohio makes $52k, right on par with an average BS degreed professional. The teacher in Ohio works no where near 240 days however.
  
  3. The BS degreed professional that was making $52k for 240 days of work, on average, contributes 6-10% of their pay to their own retirement (401k). The teacher doesn't put close to that to their pension.
  
  4. The BS degreed professional that was making $52k for 240 days of work contributes on average $150/month as their portion of their health insurance cost. The teacher pays no where near this.
  
  So please, don't come on here acting like everyone else is a moron and they need to learn their facts when you apparently haven't learned yours.

  
  1. True..and I'll be happy to join the private sector if you want to PAY us as those listed!! There was a reason for teachers unions, because they were grossly underpaid. I don't poke fun at anyone..don't try to spin anything I wrote.
  
  2. Please provide a link to this stat. And you have NO clue about the number of days a teacher works. We have contracted days. Most teachers go above beyond those days, weekends, etc, etc. We are also required to do professional development. Teachers now have to have their MASTERS degree as well. So many are going to do this in the evening or during summer break.
  
  3. LOL...you couldn't be MORE WRONG....currently pay 10% into pension and its going UP to 14% starting in 2012!!
  
  4. LMAO..you really need to do your homework pal. I currently pay 10% of insurance, which is right around 150 per month. I know many more in other districts who pay MUCH more!
  
  5. To add to this, within the past year, I have taken pay cuts/ pay freeze, pay more into insurace AND more into retirement. Those again, are FACTS.
  
  Please, next time you post, do your homework so I don't have to make you look silly.
• centralbucksfan

  I Wear Pants;686263 wrote:For the millionth time. Merit based pay != pay based on test scores.
  
  No one is suggesting that. We're suggesting that there be a method to evaluate and reward quality teachers while not rewarding/removing bad teachers.

  
  That is already in place. The issue is, the NON UNION administrators don't do their job and paper work. Thus, the reason bad teachers dont' lose their jobs. Its not difficult to fire a teacher. As long as the paper trail is done correctly.
• centralbucksfan

  I Wear Pants;686251 wrote:You realize that we cannot sustain the pay/benefits situation with teachers. Yet you're fighting to keep them because you don't like the reality. You'd rather not do anything to fix the problem because it's inconvenient for you.

  
  What you FAIL to understand, is that we are NOT the cause, yet we are being attacked! You are gullible enough to buy into what Kasich is saying...smoke and mirrors political bullshit!! He, as he did in his election, doesn't show any facts or details that doing away with SB 5 will change things in Ohio!! ITs nothing but a political power play!!
• QuakerOats

  ^^Actually it is the single biggest step we can take to control runaway spending AND eliminate binding arbitration which is THE MOST RIDICULOUS piece of BS, socialist/democrat legislation ever enacted!! Please lay blame where necessary --- with Tricky Dick Celeste and the socialists!!
• O-Trap

  

  centralbucksfan;686278 wrote:1. True..and I'll be happy to join the private sector if you want to PAY use as those listed!! There was a reason for teachers unions, because they were grossly underpaid. I don't poke fun at anyone..don't try to spin anything I wrote.

  Fine. I'm a businessman. You can be paid like me.
  
  At year ten, given current inflation trends and the average rate of advancement, along with the average pay increase (we're going to assume that the market doesn't take a dump in the meantime), I'm projected to make about $40K as a base salary, with 30% of that currently going to taxes (which will likely increase in a decade, but we'll leave it be for now). I'm down to $28K in compensation.
  
  Ah, but now we're talking about health insurance. Let's say your employer was REALLY good about this, and you only pay about $250 a month which, extrapolated over a year is $3K. So now we're down to $25K annually, but we've still got retirement. Since I'm aggressive, I want my employer to put as much in my retirement as possible, so I'm putting in 10% (of my gross pay). Extrapolate that over a year, and it's another $4K.
  
  Assuming my dental and vision are included in health (which is far from a guarantee), I'm now looking at $21K in take-home pay annually, or just over $800 a paycheck.
  
  And that's after 10 years of employment.
  

  centralbucksfan;686278 wrote:5. To add to this, within the past year, I have taken pay cuts/ pay freeze ...

  Pay freeze means nothing. If you've taken a pay CUT, then I commend your district for trying to do what it can to keep the most people employed under hard times.
• I Wear Pants

  ernest_t_bass;686264 wrote:LOL. I'm just going to give you my keyboard, since you want to say things for me, and change what I'm saying to fit your own side better.

  I'll PM you my address so you can send it.
  
  But really it seemed to me like you were saying that you realize that the current set up doesn't work but don't want to change it because it could mean less compensation for you.
• LJ

  

  centralbucksfan;686278 wrote: 3. LOL...you couldn't be MORE WRONG....currently pay 10% into pension and its going UP to 14% starting in 2012!!
  
  .

  
  Actually, the real numbers are 7% going to ~10.5% You pay OSDI, which is less than SSDI.
• I Wear Pants

  centralbucksfan;686282 wrote:That is already in place. The issue is, the NON UNION administrators don't do their job and paper work. Thus, the reason bad teachers dont' lose their jobs. Its not difficult to fire a teacher. As long as the paper trail is done correctly.

  I disagree.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  centralbucksfan;686288 wrote:What you FAIL to understand, is that we are NOT the cause, yet we are being attacked! You are gullible enough to buy into what Kasich is saying...smoke and mirrors political bullshit!! He, as he did in his election, doesn't show any facts or details that doing away with SB 5 will change things in Ohio!! ITs nothing but a political power play!!

  
  Why are you and other teachers afraid to stand on your own merit and negotiate your individual salaries like most professionals?
  
  Collective bargaining has done NOTHING to improve education in this state, but it has protected bad teachers and made it difficult for administrators to get rid of people who make good teachers look bad. Why would you want to continue such a system?
  
  Clearly, there's a financial advantage in collective bargaining because you can bully the district into getting what you want. If you have to negotiate individually, you lose that edge but you sacrifice your individuality in the process.
  
  Collective bargaining should NEVER have been allowed for public employees (all of them, not just teachers). When a company has a union, the union can only ask for a piece of the profits the company makes and keep it healthy. There is no such restriction with public unions. The well can always be tapped again with another tax increase -- often preceded by threats of how children will suffer because disgruntled teachers won't perform as well (the biggest line of BS ever used to gain political power...ever).
  
  Bottom line: stand up for yourselves as individuals like most of America now does, and let your worth be determined by the excellence you show in your classrooms. If you can't show that excellence, then find another job -- don't use a union to strong arm your way to good wages and benefits just like those who have actually earned it.
• centralbucksfan

  O-Trap;686305 wrote:Fine. I'm a businessman. You can be paid like me.
  
  At year ten, given current inflation trends and the average rate of advancement, along with the average pay increase (we're going to assume that the market doesn't take a dump in the meantime), I'm projected to make about $40K as a base salary, with 30% of that currently going to taxes (which will likely increase in a decade, but we'll leave it be for now). I'm down to $28K in compensation.
  
  Ah, but now we're talking about health insurance. Let's say your employer was REALLY good about this, and you only pay about $250 a month which, extrapolated over a year is $3K. So now we're down to $25K annually, but we've still got retirement. Since I'm aggressive, I want my employer to put as much in my retirement as possible, so I'm putting in 10% (of my gross pay). Extrapolate that over a year, and it's another $4K.
  
  Assuming my dental and vision are included in health (which is far from a guarantee), I'm now looking at $21K in take-home pay annually, or just over $800 a paycheck.
  
  And that's after 10 years of employment.
  
  
  
  Pay freeze means nothing. If you've taken a pay CUT, then I commend your district for trying to do what it can to keep the most people employed under hard times.

  
  Guess what pal, we all had a CHOICE to go into what we went into, didn't we? I chose mine for many reasons (one not being money!).
  
  Commend my district?? LOL Guess what...it was the UNION who stepped UP and voluntarily did this without any push from the district!!
  
  Again, why the attack? Because you chose a different path and aren't getting what you assume we are getting(btw, with many false facts you presented)?
  
  If you aren't satified with your situation...then do something about it instead of sitting around bitching about it and blaming others for your demise!!
  I personally, supplement my income by doing other things. Its really not difficult to do. Go out and do something about it!!
• CenterBHSFan

  

  centralbucksfan;685826 wrote:Bullshit. It isn't about money! If I wanted money, or any other teacher were in it for the money...we sure as well wouldn't have chosen to be a teacher pal. Its about what we DESERVE as HIGHLY EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS and its about protecting what we have gained over the years.
  Please don't preach to me when you have no idea what your talking about or no plan.
  
  I am ok with changes...but to be directed with no discussion, which is what the government is trying to do, is a crime!! We didn't cause this financial mess...why are we now being targeted!!??

  CenterBHSFan;685961 wrote:First paragraph: everything you bring up here is all about the money.
  
  Second paragraph: How is it a crime?
  and
  The unions and politicians got every single public worker into this mess. SOMEBODY has to find a way to get out of it. Looks like the state is endeavoring to do just that.
  Besides, there's got to be a whole lot of other changes coming. You will not be the only people in the state who gets pinched.

  I'm still curious about this...
• centralbucksfan

  LJ;686312 wrote:Actually, the real numbers are 7% going to ~10.5% You pay OSDI, which is less than SSDI.

  
  https://www.strsoh.org/pdfs/40-305.pdf
  
  "Currently STRS members pay 10% of their salary into STRS in lieu of Social Security. In the pension legislation, the Retirement Board will seek language that gives the board discretion to seek up to a total of 14% of member contributions. "
  
  Please do your research.....its getting old proving so many of you wrong.
• LJ

  

  centralbucksfan;686335 wrote:https://www.strsoh.org/pdfs/40-305.pdf
  
  "Currently STRS members pay 10% of their salary into STRS in lieu of Social Security. In the pension legislation, the Retirement Board will seek language that gives the board discretion to seek up to a total of 14% of member contributions. "
  
  Please do your research.....its getting old proving so many of you wrong.

  
  You didn't prove anything wrong. I am 100% correct. With the savings of paying into OSDI rather than SSDI, you save 3% on that, that 3% is then subtracted off of what you contribute (because it is a wash) and therefore you contribute 7% of your income if you were taxed like a private industry employee. Get it?
• fish82

  

  centralbucksfan;686322 wrote:Guess what pal, we all had a CHOICE to go into what we went into, didn't we? I chose mine for many reasons (one not being money!).
  
  Commend my district?? LOL Guess what...it was the UNION who stepped UP and voluntarily did this without any push from the district!!
  
  Again, why the attack? Because you chose a different path and aren't getting what you assume we are getting(btw, with many false facts you presented)?
  
  If you aren't satified with your situation...then do something about it instead of sitting around bitching about it and blaming others for your demise!!
  I personally, supplement my income by doing other things. Its really not difficult to do. Go out and do something about it!!

  Which district do you teach in? Are all the teachers there as openly hostile as you?
• centralbucksfan

  Writerbuckeye;686320 wrote:Why are you and other teachers afraid to stand on your own merit and negotiate your individual salaries like most professionals?
  
  Collective bargaining has done NOTHING to improve education in this state, but it has protected bad teachers and made it difficult for administrators to get rid of people who make good teachers look bad. Why would you want to continue such a system?
  
  Clearly, there's a financial advantage in collective bargaining because you can bully the district into getting what you want. If you have to negotiate individually, you lose that edge but you sacrifice your individuality in the process.
  
  Collective bargaining should NEVER have been allowed for public employees (all of them, not just teachers). When a company has a union, the union can only ask for a piece of the profits the company makes and keep it healthy. There is no such restriction with public unions. The well can always be tapped again with another tax increase -- often preceded by threats of how children will suffer because disgruntled teachers won't perform as well (the biggest line of BS ever used to gain political power...ever).
  
  Bottom line: stand up for yourselves as individuals like most of America now does, and let your worth be determined by the excellence you show in your classrooms. If you can't show that excellence, then find another job -- don't use a union to strong arm your way to good wages and benefits just like those who have actually earned it.

  
  All I needed to read, and stop was your comment about protecting bad teachers and bullying districts. Are you still living in the past, 20-30yrs ago? THis isn't the UAW or teamsters your talking about!! You do realize, that since the collective bargaining went into affect in 1982, there have been LESS stikes then there were before? Strong arm? lol I have been involved in negotiations...and we have never strong armed anyone. lol Its been nothing but civil discussions to come to common ground. Simple as that. I don't know where some of you pull this stuff out of your rear from.
  And if you don't think education will be affected, look NO further than the states that don't have unions. They don't pay their teachers jackshit, have poor benefits. Those states are BEGGING for teachers to come there. They can't attract any teachers, let alone good ones!! Those states are at the BOTTOM in the US in terms of education!
• sleeper

  

  centralbucksfan;686348 wrote:All I needed to read, and stop was your comment about protecting bad teachers and bullying districts. Are you still living in the past, 20-30yrs ago? THis isn't the UAW or teamsters your talking about!! You do realize, that since the collective bargaining went into affect in 1982, there have been LESS stikes then there were before? Strong arm? lol I have been involved in negotiations...and we have never strong armed anyone. lol Its been nothing but civil discussions to come to common ground. Simple as that. I don't know where some of you pull this stuff out of your rear from.
  And if you don't think education will be affected, look NO further than the states that don't have unions. They don't pay their teachers jackshit, have poor benefits. Those states are BEGGING for teachers to come there. They can't attract any teachers, let alone good ones!! Those states are at the BOTTOM in the US in terms of education!

  
  If you're the type of teacher in Ohio that we are overpaying, then good riddance.
• bonelizzard

  Post #623.. Hey Otrap I accept your apology and thanks. Always trying to find some time to relax, thanks for the advice.
  
  Post #649 Thanks Albundy I agree with you.
  
  Post #659 Yea DW I said Constitutional right didn’t I? Well what I meant to say was “American Right” See I talk far much better than I type. Because I deal with people and kids, not keyboards. Haven’t avoided the question, just haven’t been on here much lately. I feel that we as Americans because we live in a free country can or should be able to collectively bargain wages, salaries, benefits etc. Private sector or public, doesn’t make a difference to me. Yep I was wrong with the “effective” part of phone conversations. What I meant to say was more &#8220ersonal” That’s all so yes, I was wrong..(happy face)
  Not sure how I’m being sensitive or bent out of shape. I’m not using bold or all caps. right now am I?
  
  Post #749 Yes Earnest they have a way of doing that don’t they?
  
  sorry to not quote everyone and post it the way you guys do. As said before I’m really not that good at this. What I do is cut and paste when I’m done typing. Question? Is everyone exempt from using all caps, because when I go back and read through this thread I’m not thoroughly convinced that Bad Guy Bonelizzard is the only one who has used all caps..
  
  What is lulz? Could someone clear this up for me? Not familiar with this.
  
  Central Bucks Fan. You Rock. You are my hero.