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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

  • O-Trap
    dwccrew;685542 wrote:This is what I don't understand about unions and some of union membership. Why hold yourself back? Why should one be paid equal (if same amount of experience and education is involved) if one teacher performs better than the other (or in any union career field)?

    Agreed. If Fred and I have the same job (let's say we're night watchmen), and I make regular rounds, monitor cameras closely, and do everything to protect the place I'm guarding ... but Fred gets some shut-eye every night instead of doing his job ... and neither of our buildings is ever burglarized, the result has been the same, but that doesn't meant that our performances cannot be evaluated on their own merit.

    Moreover, I'd be pissed as hell if we received the same compensation.
  • dwccrew
    O-Trap;685571 wrote:Agreed. If Fred and I have the same job (let's say we're night watchmen), and I make regular rounds, monitor cameras closely, and do everything to protect the place I'm guarding ... but Fred gets some shut-eye every night instead of doing his job ... and neither of our buildings is ever burglarized, the result has been the same, but that doesn't meant that our performances cannot be evaluated on their own merit.

    Moreover, I'd be pissed as hell if we received the same compensation.

    But if you eliminate CBAs and unions the quality of security will go down!
  • CenterBHSFan
    dwccrew;685573 wrote:But if you eliminate CBAs and unions the quality of security will go down!
    lolol!
  • O-Trap
    dwccrew;685573 wrote:But if you eliminate CBAs and unions the quality of security will go down!

    Then those who deliver the low quality will be fired, and those who are willing to give BETTER security will be hired.

    Welcome to the world outside the protective bubble! It SUCKS! You're gonna love it!
  • Manhattan Buckeye
    dwccrew;685573 wrote:But if you eliminate CBAs and unions the quality of security will go down!

    I wonder what some think about doctors....if for some reason their employer tells them their pay will freeze, or that their 401(k) employer contribution is reduced - is it expected that they will half-ass their work?
  • dwccrew
    Manhattan Buckeye;685617 wrote:I wonder what some think about doctors....if for some reason their employer tells them their pay will freeze, or that their 401(k) employer contribution is reduced - is it expected that they will half-ass their work?

    That's a good question.
  • sleeper
    This isn't about anything but Public workers trying to protect their unfairly high total compensation package. It's about money, not about the kids, but teachers won't come out and say it.

    I think teachers and other public workers are important, but they should be paid a wage more in line with their skills and abilities(could be more or less) like everyone else.
  • mella
    CinciX12;685416 wrote:Heard just now that the city of Cincinnati alone owes more than 93 million in just unused sick days or something like that lol? That is a little hard to ignore.

    I still stand by reform is the way to go, not complete elimination. There are very few of us opposed to this bill that don't realize the system is broken. But I think it is correctable and shouldn't be axed completely.
    I will say as a teacher I don't understand the ability to accumulate 300 sick days and then get compensated for them upon retirement at your per diem rate. I think teachers can pay up to 20% of their health insurance, I do right now.

    My wife can accumulated up to 6 weeks of vacation, which she can be compensated for if she changes jobs, and an unlimited number of sick days which she does not paid for if she retires. I have no problem with this idea. I like to think I belong to a professional organization not a union, but the teachers in Wisconsin are destroying any hope of that perception.

    I am a professional and I am smart enough to know that changes are needed. In the end I want 2 things job security and a paycheck that reflects my educational level, (I am not a high school grad turning screws on an assembly line).

    I grew up in a union town and worked as a scab in a factory one summer. I've seen the inflated salaries and ineffectual union rules destroy factories and towns. The summer I worked as a scab we set production records for 2 months straight.

    Teachers are professionals not day laborers, they should act like it and the public should treat us like it. Most people do.
  • mella
    sleeper;685760 wrote:This isn't about anything but Public workers trying to protect their unfairly high total compensation package. It's about money, not about the kids, but teachers won't come out and say it.

    I think teachers and other public workers are important, but they should be paid a wage more in line with their skills and abilities(could be more or less) like everyone else.
    I agree, math and science teachers should be paid more than other teachers because these are 2 areas that "the public" uses as benchmarks when comparing the American educational system to other countries. You never hear about Japan or China kicking our butts in P.E. or Home Ec.
  • centralbucksfan
    The ABSOLUTE IGNORANCE I am reading on here is comical. Some of you have NO FREAKING clue what your talking about! At least before engaging in a conversation, DO YOUR RESEARCH!! I sure don't see many teachers, police and firefighters living lavish lifestyles!!
    Ridiculous benefits and pensions!!?? WTF are you talking about? I know MANY a retired teacher, who have to continue to supplement their retirement to pay for their health benefits!!
    I have taken a pay freeze, pay cut, pay more into insurance. Now that our pension fund is under attack, I too will have to pay more into retirement, work long and get LESS benefits!!

    This is nothing but bullshit POLITICS going on. A power play by the republicans. This is an all out attack against public employees. For what!? Did we cause this crisis? Absolutely NOT! But we are the prime target right now!!

    Well, some of you may get what you ask for...which will be diminished services by your police department, fire department and education in the state of Ohio...will be as bad as other states who have no unnion, teacher pay and benefits are so low, that those states can't even find teachers to fill positions!!

    Do your homework before you come on here spouting your BULLSHIT!
  • centralbucksfan
    sleeper;685760 wrote:This isn't about anything but Public workers trying to protect their unfairly high total compensation package. It's about money, not about the kids, but teachers won't come out and say it.

    I think teachers and other public workers are important, but they should be paid a wage more in line with their skills and abilities(could be more or less) like everyone else.

    Bullshit. It isn't about money! If I wanted money, or any other teacher were in it for the money...we sure as well wouldn't have chosen to be a teacher pal. Its about what we DESERVE as HIGHLY EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS and its about protecting what we have gained over the years.
    You are speaking in generalities with NO specifics. I want to hear a PLAN, not bullshit. If you think we should be paid to be in line with our educations, skills and abilties...then lets hear it? We are held to state standards, we have to continuelly go back to school to keep our licenses and we are held to a state code of conduct. What other professions are required to be under this watchful eye? Doctors, lawyers?

    Merit pay you say? Then lets hear a plan that will work? What about special ed teachers who are teaching learning disabled? How about MH teachers? Counselors? What about those teachers in the inner city who get absolutely NO SUPPORT from parents, if those kids even have parents? What you fail to understand, is that there are SO many variables in teaching, its not even funny! Things are so different from on district to another, from one class to another and from one school to another, even in the same district!!
    Please don't preach to me when you have no idea what your talking about or no plan.

    I am ok with changes...but to be directed with no discussion, which is what the government is trying to do, is a crime!! We didn't cause this financial mess...why are we now being targeted!!??
  • CinciX12
    centralbucksfan;685813 wrote:The ABSOLUTE IGNORANCE I am reading on here is comical. Some of you have NO FREAKING clue what your talking about! At least before engaging in a conversation, DO YOUR RESEARCH!! I sure don't see many teachers, police and firefighters living lavish lifestyles!!
    Ridiculous benefits and pensions!!?? WTF are you talking about? I know MANY a retired teacher, who have to continue to supplement their retirement to pay for their health benefits!!
    I have taken a pay freeze, pay cut, pay more into insurance. Now that our pension fund is under attack, I too will have to pay more into retirement, work long and get LESS benefits!!

    This is nothing but bullshit POLITICS going on. A power play by the republicans. This is an all out attack against public employees. For what!? Did we cause this crisis? Absolutely NOT! But we are the prime target right now!!

    Well, some of you may get what you ask for...which will be diminished services by your police department, fire department and education in the state of Ohio...will be as bad as other states who have no unnion, teacher pay and benefits are so low, that those states can't even find teachers to fill positions!!

    Do your homework before you come on here spouting your BULLSHIT!

    This is not going to go well for you. At all.
  • I Wear Pants
    centralbucksfan;685826 wrote:Bullshit. It isn't about money! If I wanted money, or any other teacher were in it for the money...we sure as well wouldn't have chosen to be a teacher pal. Its about what we DESERVE as HIGHLY EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS and its about protecting what we have gained over the years.
    You are speaking in generalities with NO specifics. I want to hear a PLAN, not bullshit. If you think we should be paid to be in line with our educations, skills and abilties...then lets hear it? We are held to state standards, we have to continuelly go back to school to keep our licenses and we are held to a state code of conduct. What other professions are required to be under this watchful eye? Doctors, lawyers?

    Merit pay you say? Then lets hear a plan that will work? What about special ed teachers who are teaching learning disabled? How about MH teachers? Counselors? What about those teachers in the inner city who get absolutely NO SUPPORT from parents, if those kids even have parents? What you fail to understand, is that there are SO many variables in teaching, its not even funny! Things are so different from on district to another, from one class to another and from one school to another, even in the same district!!
    Please don't preach to me when you have no idea what your talking about or no plan.

    I am ok with changes...but to be directed with no discussion, which is what the government is trying to do, is a crime!! We didn't cause this financial mess...why are we now being targeted!!??
    So you're saying there is no way to tell who is a good teacher and who is a bad teacher?
  • Manhattan Buckeye
    I Wear Pants;685907 wrote:So you're saying there is no way to tell who is a good teacher and who is a bad teacher?

    The person that graduated last in my HS class knew exactly who the bad teachers and good teachers were, and it would correspond very well with the evaluations from the top of the class - it would be shocking to the people that advocate for the status quo how easily their performance could be reviewed - why the good teachers would reject this type of performance review is beyond me.
  • WebFire
    centralbucksfan;685826 wrote: Merit pay you say? Then lets hear a plan that will work? What about special ed teachers who are teaching learning disabled? How about MH teachers? Counselors? What about those teachers in the inner city who get absolutely NO SUPPORT from parents, if those kids even have parents? What you fail to understand, is that there are SO many variables in teaching, its not even funny! Things are so different from on district to another, from one class to another and from one school to another, even in the same district!!
    2 things about this paragraph I fail to understand. Everyone mentions the Special Ed teachers. In the private sector, merit is not always based on direct results. Teaching doesn't have to be either. Do you really think there would be 1 single standard to hold ever single teacher to? And a standard would only have to be one factor.

    Secondly, your statement about variables could apply to soooooo many jobs in the private sector. Is teaching or firefighting the only jobs with variables? Hell no! But somehow the private sector can figure it.

    I am an IT professional. How do you measure my merit? Hours of server uptime? Number of help desk calls answered?
  • sleeper
    I have taken a pay freeze, pay cut, pay more into insurance. Now that our pension fund is under attack, I too will have to pay more into retirement, work long and get LESS benefits!!
    Welcome to the real world. At least you still have a job.
    Bullshit. It isn't about money! If I wanted money, or any other teacher were in it for the money...we sure as well wouldn't have chosen to be a teacher pal.
    Seeing as how this issue is largely about money, why are you so against the bill then? Shouldn't you be willing to accept less pay since you don't really care about that and just want to help the children?

    As far as my plan, I think Senate bill 5 is a pretty good plan. Read it.
  • I Wear Pants
    Manhattan Buckeye;685919 wrote:The person that graduated last in my HS class knew exactly who the bad teachers and good teachers were, and it would correspond very well with the evaluations from the top of the class - it would be shocking to the people that advocate for the status quo how easily their performance could be reviewed - why the good teachers would reject this type of performance review is beyond me.
    Exactly my point. This idea that you cannot evaluate teachers based on their performance (which does not mean test scores or one single factor so cut that excuse out) is bullshit.
  • mella
    Based on past student performance and standardized test results all students (at least in my district) have projections for future performance on standardized tests. A year for a year is the standard mantra for standardized tests being associated with a year of school. If the students reach whatever benchmark was set for them then it is considered a year for a year. If they do better then they got more than a year. A standardized score based on the students' performance is one way to distinguish more effective teachers from less effective teachers. This is flawed though because districts like Dublin, Hilliard, Upper Arlington , Olentangy.... might have a statistical advantage based on the socioeconomics of the families when compared to Columbus public or Cleveland public.

    Within districts this is a fair comparison because you are comparing peer groups among students, teachers, and community expectations.

    Sooo, to a point you can distinguish more effective teachers from less efffective teachers within districts.
  • I Wear Pants
    No, evaluating teachers and judging their pay based on standardized test scores isn't a good idea. That's clear.
  • mella
    The other question that this brings to mind is, at what point can a teacher be evaluated for effectiveness? K, 1st, 2nd, .. there are not enough "test" results to compare a year for a year.
  • CenterBHSFan
    centralbucksfan;685826 wrote:Bullshit. It isn't about money! If I wanted money, or any other teacher were in it for the money...we sure as well wouldn't have chosen to be a teacher pal. Its about what we DESERVE as HIGHLY EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS and its about protecting what we have gained over the years.

    I am ok with changes...but to be directed with no discussion, which is what the government is trying to do, is a crime!! We didn't cause this financial mess...why are we now being targeted!!??
    First paragraph: everything you bring up here is all about the money.

    Second paragraph: How is it a crime?
    and
    The unions and politicians got every single public worker into this mess. SOMEBODY has to find a way to get out of it. Looks like the state is endeavoring to do just that.
    Besides, there's got to be a whole lot of other changes coming. You will not be the only people in the state who gets pinched.
  • jmog
    centralbucksfan;685826 wrote:Bullshit. It isn't about money! If I wanted money, or any other teacher were in it for the money...we sure as well wouldn't have chosen to be a teacher pal. Its about what we DESERVE as HIGHLY EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS and its about protecting what we have gained over the years.
    You are speaking in generalities with NO specifics. I want to hear a PLAN, not bullshit. If you think we should be paid to be in line with our educations, skills and abilties...then lets hear it? We are held to state standards, we have to continuelly go back to school to keep our licenses and we are held to a state code of conduct. What other professions are required to be under this watchful eye? Doctors, lawyers?
    Since you want to be compared with "highly educated professionals" lets do that.

    1. Teachers are about the only college educated career I can think of that is unionized, everyone else with BS or higher (engineers, doctors, lawyers, actuaries, businessmen, etc represent themselves in contract negotiations. So, if you want to be compared to everyone else with a college degree, get rid of your union first. You, on one hand, poke fun at those who "turn screws" and then on the other want to keep your union when typically unions represent those who "turn screws".

    2. The average BS degree'd person, regardless of degree, averages about $52k right now (averaging out all lvls of experience), for a full year's work (240 work days, 52x5 then subtract out 10 holidays and 10 vacation days). An average teacher in Ohio makes $52k, right on par with an average BS degreed professional. The teacher in Ohio works no where near 240 days however.

    3. The BS degreed professional that was making $52k for 240 days of work, on average, contributes 6-10% of their pay to their own retirement (401k). The teacher doesn't put close to that to their pension.

    4. The BS degreed professional that was making $52k for 240 days of work contributes on average $150/month as their portion of their health insurance cost. The teacher pays no where near this.

    So please, don't come on here acting like everyone else is a moron and they need to learn their facts when you apparently haven't learned yours.
  • ernest_t_bass
    jmog;685966 wrote:3. The BS degreed professional that was making $52k for 240 days of work, on average, contributes 6-10% of their pay to their own retirement (401k). The teacher doesn't put close to that to their pension.

    I contribute 10% of my salary to retirement every paycheck. Board covers 18%. Next year it is 14%/14% split. This bill would wipe out the board pick-up, and I would pay a full 28% of my salary to retirement.
  • sleeper
    ernest_t_bass;685978 wrote:I contribute 10% of my salary to retirement every paycheck. Board covers 18%. Next year it is 14%/14% split. This bill would wipe out the board pick-up, and I would pay a full 28% of my salary to retirement.

    ...says the Union propaganda.
  • ernest_t_bass
    sleeper;685988 wrote:...says the Union propaganda.

    Sleeper, you are stupid. Says my paycheck!

    My gross last paycheck (and really, I have no reason to lie) was $1,634.70. My STRS pay-in was $163.47. Now, I'm no math teacher, but I think that is about 10%. The board pickup of STRS was $228.86. That is actually 14%, so I stand corrected. I thought they paid more.

    So, a total of 24% of my salary goes towards pension. I pay 10%, board pays 14%. I DO know that I will be paying 14% per pay next year. I'll have to check on board amount. They are either going to match pay or pay 10% to our 14%.

    Do you know that most BOE's pay ALL of a superintendent's pension? Same for some administrators.