students not standing for the pledge, what say you?

• Glory Days

  

  BCSbunk wrote:

  CenterBHSFan wrote: I think you guys are taking what BRF said the wrong way. He said:
  

  If a kid refuses (like yours.......and now we know the crux of the matter here) to say the Pledge with their parents blessing, then I would see to it that that kid would not be around when it is going to be said, in other words, wait in the hall till it is over.

  If the kid doesn't want any part of saying the Pledge, then he isn't. Because he's separated from it totally. I would think that you guys would be happy that said kid isn't being "tainted" from Nazism by being in the same room as the recited Pledge...?

  Strawman argument Center.
  
  Seperating from the classroom is not seperating from the pledge.

  haha how is it not seperating the two? plus, the moment the kid decides not to stand or recite the pledge, that kid has already singled him/herself out to their peers. the teacher didnt do that. if the kid doesnt wish to be a part of the pledge or nazification process as you call it, why should they be around for it?
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Yeah. The whole strawman argument. It's always popular!
  
  
• mtrulz

  CenterBHSFan wrote:
  
  Yeah, I know.
  
  Fortunately, we live in America. Kids who don't want to stand and/or say the Pledge do not:
  
  - get sent to concentration camps
  - get exiled
  - get fined
  - get jailed
  - get killed
  
  Like so many kids who lived during Nazi Germany did.
  
  Yeah. The comparison is CLEAR!
  Why didn't I see it before?
  :rolleyes:

  Oh really? School is considered a jail/concentration camp.
• BRF

  

  Thanks for the back up, HitsRus, GloryDays and Centerbhsfan! I really liked the things you were saying!
  
  One thing I said that I would like to clarify and that is that I DO NOT think it is a student's right to beat down another. I was typing too fast and since it's already been quoted in other posts, I can't go back and change it. But, again, I don't think it's anyone's right to give a physical beatdown and I would do everything in my power to stop something like that from happening.
• cbus4life

  Wait, did i misread, or did you say you call the parents if a student decides not to stand for the pledge?
  
  Sorry, had too much to drink last night and still not completely awake yet.
  
  Just curious.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  mtgrad,
  
  Although I cannot speak for others, I can certainly say that when I was in HS, I really DID think I was in jail!!!! haha
• BCSbunk

  HitsRus wrote: ^^^oooh Mr. logical fallacy expert.
  
  BRF is entirely right in not assigning full 'rights' to minors. You can't flip off a teacher or any other authority figure. Why should you be allowed to flip off your your country? The educator/teacher in this case has a duty to inform the parents of his child's behavior. There is no way that a child has thoughtfully formulated an opinion that would require him by conscience to not show respect to his country. Not standing in respect for your country then is either a show of petulance and/ or attention seeking behavior, or is being driven by the parents, and it is important to assertain which. If it is by the parents choice, then the parents should decide what/where their child does while the pledge is being said.
  Equating 'Naziism' with a devleoping/instilling a healthy love/respect for one's country is not logical either.(slippery slope).

  Well this would be an example of a faulty analogy. Not reciting a pledge is not a violation of any rule or law. Flipping off a teacher is a violation of a school rule. They are in no way related.
  
  Not reciting the pledge is not a sign of disrespect it is merely your opinion of it.
• BCSbunk

  Glory Days wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote:

  CenterBHSFan wrote: I think you guys are taking what BRF said the wrong way. He said:
  

  If a kid refuses (like yours.......and now we know the crux of the matter here) to say the Pledge with their parents blessing, then I would see to it that that kid would not be around when it is going to be said, in other words, wait in the hall till it is over.

  If the kid doesn't want any part of saying the Pledge, then he isn't. Because he's separated from it totally. I would think that you guys would be happy that said kid isn't being "tainted" from Nazism by being in the same room as the recited Pledge...?

  Strawman argument Center.
  
  Seperating from the classroom is not seperating from the pledge.

  haha how is it not seperating the two? plus, the moment the kid decides not to stand or recite the pledge, that kid has already singled him/herself out to their peers. the teacher didnt do that. if the kid doesnt wish to be a part of the pledge or nazification process as you call it, why should they be around for it?

  She has the right to be in the classroom. She has the right not to recite the pledge. I am thankful that her school is not filled with fervent nationalism like you are trying to suggest.
  
  As far as her peers goes she has full support no one says anything to her about it. Good kids.
• Glory Days

  

  Technically where does she have the right to be in that classroom? there are 3 people i can think of who have the authority to remove her from that classroom.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  yeah, sure they have the right to remove her. Is that really how you'd approach the situation though....I mean it obviously is, because that's how it is being handled....I'm glad the teachers at BCS's kids school are not so fanatical.....I just wish that wasn't the exception to the rule.
  
  What do you really get out of forcing these kids to do your will????
  
  Oh well, there's been teachers like you forever. At least we got some great Pink Floyd songs out of the deal...:-/
• Glory Days

  

  Maybe the student has become a distraction to the other students? in certain situations that could be the case and be a good reason for removing that student during the pledge.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  I'm sure it is a distraction to have one kid not stand for the pledge....depending on the age of the children it's probably their first experience with this...
  
  That's why I say turn it into a civics lesson. But I know conservatives don't what kids to know what America really stands for...They don't want them to know as Americans they have inherent rights and personal liberties. They want to think its about conformity...But it isn't. And thats where you do the country an injustice...
  
  If the kids knew, it'd make it harder to control their ideas and opinions....
• mtrulz

  CenterBHSFan wrote: mtgrad,
  
  Although I cannot speak for others, I can certainly say that when I was in HS, I really DID think I was in jail!!!! haha

  ....and you're correct.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  +1....I'll never forget of vindictive and immature some teachers were. I slept everyday in 1st period Psych, but got A's on all my tests, which made the teacher hate me. When I answered only enough questions on the final to ensure passing it and recieving a high mark in the class she tried to flunk me...
  
  Had to bring my parents in and plead my case to the principals, who saw that I was in the right.
  
  Why are students more mature than the teacher most of the time? These people need to grow up. Life is not about controlling others....Where do people get that idea??? I think it's perpetuated by overzealous authority figures, who are breeding selfishness...
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Maybe your teacher wanted you to learn and not just pass?
• HitsRus

  

  "I am thankful that her school is not filled with fervent nationalism like you are trying to suggest"
  
  
  wow..the POA has become 'fervent nationalism'...talking about a leap of logic.
  
  All I know, is that as a parent, if my 14 year old kid refused to stand for the POA, he'd be standing when he got home...in the corner.
  
  "If the kids knew, it'd make it harder to control their ideas and opinions.... "
  playing in the background...Pink Floyd ....Brick in the Wall
• tk421

  

  HitsRus wrote: "I am thankful that her school is not filled with fervent nationalism like you are trying to suggest"
  
  
  wow..the POA has become 'fervent nationalism'...talking about a leap of logic.
  
  All I know, is that as a parent, if my 14 year old kid refused to stand for the POA, he'd be standing when he got home...in the corner.
  
  "If the kids knew, it'd make it harder to control their ideas and opinions.... "
  playing in the background...Pink Floyd ....Brick in the Wall

  That's nice. If your kid didn't follow your ideals, you'd punish them. Wonderful parenting. Of course, they are only 14, they can't possible think for themselves. :rolleyes:
• mtrulz

  HitsRus wrote: "I am thankful that her school is not filled with fervent nationalism like you are trying to suggest"
  
  
  wow..the POA has become 'fervent nationalism'...talking about a leap of logic.
  
  All I know, is that as a parent, if my 14 year old kid refused to stand for the POA, he'd be standing when he got home...in the corner.
  
  "If the kids knew, it'd make it harder to control their ideas and opinions.... "
  playing in the background...Pink Floyd ....Brick in the Wall

  Don't do that! That's cruel and unusual punishment!! I'm 15, and I feel his pain. It's old and is done every day.
• rookie_j70

  

  Simple.........
  
  
  
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  HitsRus wrote: "I am thankful that her school is not filled with fervent nationalism like you are trying to suggest"
  
  
  wow..the POA has become 'fervent nationalism'...talking about a leap of logic.
  

  wow..I'm really shocked that your head could be this thick...
  
  How many times does one have to explain, it's not the pledge that is the problem. It's the act of forcing or punishing someone b/c they won't participate that is the problem.
  
  Are you unable to comprehend or are you victim of selective sight???
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  CenterBHSFan wrote: Maybe your teacher wanted you to learn and not just pass?

  Wonder why no other A students were singled out as merely passing instead of learning????
• BCSbunk

  Glory Days wrote: Technically where does she have the right to be in that classroom? there are 3 people i can think of who have the authority to remove her from that classroom.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette
  
  It is uncontitutional to force a child to stand and recite the pledge.
  
  As to your question it is a stupid question.
  
  What right does she have to be in the classroom? The same rights as every other student who is not doing anything wrong.
• BCSbunk

  HitsRus wrote: "I am thankful that her school is not filled with fervent nationalism like you are trying to suggest"
  
  
  wow..the POA has become 'fervent nationalism'...talking about a leap of logic.
  
  All I know, is that as a parent, if my 14 year old kid refused to stand for the POA, he'd be standing when he got home...in the corner.
  
  "If the kids knew, it'd make it harder to control their ideas and opinions.... "
  playing in the background...Pink Floyd ....Brick in the Wall

  If you want to force the pledge upon students which is unconstitutional that is fervent nationalism.
  
  There are people here that want to punish those that do not want to stand and that is unconstitutional.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  I don't know. My parents were very strict while growing up. I don't know how many times I heard "My house, my rules". Of course, I had to be bad from time to time
  I was taught to respect the flag, say the pledge and so on. My family is very military oriented, always a few people serving at any given year. So I guess such things as saying the pledge never bothered me because there was always somebody I loved serving, and it always made me think of them and wishing they were with us instead of wherever they were at the time.
  I guess many of you would like to call my parents Nazi's because of how they raised me and that they were conservative democrats. That is a false notion and a distored perspective on things.
  Also, for some reason, I don't feel emotionally or mentally scarred from my upbringing. But hey, maybe I'm the exception to the rule, eh?
• Glory Days

  

  Strapping Young Lad wrote:

  CenterBHSFan wrote: Maybe your teacher wanted you to learn and not just pass?

  Wonder why no other A students were singled out as merely passing instead of learning????

  probably because of your attitude toward class? just a thought.
  

  BCSbunk wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette
  
  It is uncontitutional to force a child to stand and recite the pledge.
  
  As to your question it is a stupid question.
  
  What right does she have to be in the classroom? The same rights as every other student who is not doing anything wrong.

  like i said, if the students actions are becoming a distraction to the rest of the class, the teacher should have the right to ask her to step outside while the rest of the class chooses to recite the pledge.