students not standing for the pledge, what say you?

• CenterBHSFan

  

  Well, that's what you get when you throw about the term "Nazi" loosely.
  There is nothing about saying or not saying the Pledge in America comparable to use term.
  If it were anything like the Nazi regime, there would be awful consequences for not saying the Pledge; I.E. - concentration camps, killing, jail, fines (at the least), exile.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  There's nothing about saying or not saying that is comparable to Naziism. Where problem lies is when people are not tolerant of kids who don't stand and say they should be forced to....THAT's whatfacist about it!!!! Try to keep up.
  
  I mean, c'mon... are you really that thick?????
• CenterBHSFan

  

  BRF, do ask why the child doesn't want to stand for the pledge before calling his parents or is it just absolute tyranny in your classroom....
  
  They'd have loved you in Germany around 1935....Nazi youth, Baby!!!!!

  I don't know, you tell me.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Does that say saying or not saying the Pledge is Naziism???
  
  That says a teacher forcing a kid to do something other than what the student chooses is Naziism.....
  
  There is a HUGE difference and if you are misinterrpreting what I said that's your problem...
• BRF

  

  Excuse me, but I DO NOT force a kid to say the Pledge. I know the law. And the law says that I can have my say about it, too. If a kid refuses (like yours.......and now we know the crux of the matter here) to say the Pledge with their parents blessing, then I would see to it that that kid would not be around when it is going to be said, in other words, wait in the hall till it is over. I'll bet you would flip out if that were done to your kid! You probably want her to get that attention. Did you ever consider the harm that that might be doing to her at school among her peers?
  
  I just got back from our high school basketball game. It was really nice to see EVERYBODY in attendance, of all races and creeds, standing for the National Anthem. I suppose you have a problem with that, too?
• HitsRus

  

  You either believe in the USA or you don't. If you don't, that's fine...don't stand. But at least have a worthwhile reason...not some stupid petulant, whining, childish tantrum like protest about some insignificant thing such as the word 'god' in a pledge....a word that you are not required nor punished if you don't say.
• BCSbunk

  Glory Days wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote: There is little freedom in this country. You only think there is. Standing and giving a pledge to a flag is nationalism similar to the nazi regimes.
  
  You can respect your country without bowing to nationalism.

  its not similar, we dont pledge to Obama or the Democratic party.
  
  the definition of Nationalism:
  national spirit or aspirations. devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.

  I do not commit treason, therefore I am loyal to my country. I do not need to recite some political rhetoric created by a socialist to prove my loyalty.
  
  In fact knowing that a socialist created the pledge I am surprised the right wingers are so fanatical about it. http://www.oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  BRF wrote: Excuse me, but I DO NOT force a kid to say the Pledge. I know the law. And the law says that I can have my say about it, too. If a kid refuses (like yours.......and now we know the crux of the matter here) to say the Pledge with their parents blessing, then I would see to it that that kid would not be around when it is going to be said, in other words, wait in the hall till it is over. I'll bet you would flip out if that were done to your kid! You probably want her to get that attention. Did you ever consider the harm that that might be doing to her at school among her peers?
  
  I just got back from our high school basketball game. It was really nice to see EVERYBODY in attendance, of all races and creeds, standing for the National Anthem. I suppose you have a problem with that, too?

  I don't have a kid so I don't know what you're talking about. That's awesome that you make them wait in the hall. Why do I care????I don't flip out over anything, especially you asking a kid to wait in the hallway during the pledge. That's the childs right to choose not to stand and yours to not want them present, for whatever reason. I don't care what it is. YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT....
  
  I don't care if you tattoo the pledge on your forehead and do a handstand during...FYI I stand for the pledge everytime I substitute for a teacher and i stand and remove my hat for the anthem....
  
  I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE PLEDGE NOR DO I CARE WHAT YOU DO, UNLESS IT INVOLVES FORCING SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT NOT TO DO!!!!!!
  
  I BELIEVE THE PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD WHO SAY A CHILD SHOULD BE FORCED TO STAND ARE WRONG... GET IT YET?????
  
  Also, if you don't ask the kid why he doesn't want to stand and use that as an opportunity to give the kids in the class a lesson on what the pledge means, what the flag stands for, and a lesson on their rights as Americans to have their own ideas and beliefs and the right to voice those, but instead call their parents to help exact YOUR will then I think you are narrow minded control freak and there are already enough teachers like that.....
• BRF

  

  So, in other words, you don't like my opinion.
  
  Is that all right with you, Mr. Liberal, that I have an opinion that you disagree with?
  
  This conservative says that we agree to disagree.
  
  What a great country we have!!
  
  (also, it was bcsbunk that had the daughter that doesn't stand, and to whom my remarks were directed, but indirectly also to you)
• Glory Days

  

  BCSbunk wrote:

  Glory Days wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote: There is little freedom in this country. You only think there is. Standing and giving a pledge to a flag is nationalism similar to the nazi regimes.
  
  You can respect your country without bowing to nationalism.

  its not similar, we dont pledge to Obama or the Democratic party.
  
  the definition of Nationalism:
  national spirit or aspirations. devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.

  I do not commit treason, therefore I am loyal to my country. I do not need to recite some political rhetoric created by a socialist to prove my loyalty.
  
  In fact knowing that a socialist created the pledge I am surprised the right wingers are so fanatical about it. http://www.oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm

  Not necessarily.
• BRF

  

  Strapping Young Lad wrote: Also, if you don't ask the kid why he doesn't want to stand and use that as an opportunity to give the kids in the class a lesson on what the pledge means, what the flag stands for, and a lesson on their rights as Americans to have their own ideas and beliefs and the right to voice those.......

  Oh, wait, Mr. Liberal........wouldn't your way be "calling the kid out" in front of his/her classmates? I am really surprised that you would do it that way. But, then again, this is your opinion. Heaven forbid (and I hope you don't mind that I say Heaven) that anyone would dare disagree with you on YOUR OPINION!
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Yes, let's send them out in the hall so the other kids think he's being punished and the student is embarrassed, instead of using it as an opportunity to teach the kids a real life lesson on civics and history.....
  
  Sweet teaching skills...if you don't conform, you'll be sent to the hall!!!!!
• BRF

  

  Strapping Young Lad wrote: Yes, let's send them out in the hall so the other kids think he's being punished and the student is embarrassed, instead of using it as an opportunity to teach the kids a real life lesson.....

  And that's the "real life lesson"!
  
  OMG, the student who doesn't stand for the Pledge is embarassed! Surely we can't have that!
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Teaching is about more than reciting shit from a book. Maybe if teachers took these instances and turned them into a way the kids could actually learn something it'd be beneficial...
  
  I guess that's beyond your grasp, though....just avoid the problem. Why try to teach the kids something more, right??? Why take advantage of the situation, turning it into something useful, right??? Guess they don't teach you how to think outside the box where you are from. Wonder why kids are bored at school and don't want to learn????
• BRF

  

  You have your feet planted firmly in mid-air.
  
  You think I am some sort of monster?
  
  Well, my students love my classes and, believe it or not, would agree with everything that I have said. Yes, I encourage thinking "outside of the box". We have fun and learn, too.
  
  I have many students who I have to stop from giving a "beat down" to anyone who doesn't honor our country. This might shock you, but I say that that is their right, although we may disagree. So that is where the calling the parents comes into play. Why do you have such a beef about that?
  
  Your take on me and my teaching is quite laughable.
  
  You really have no idea.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Wow giving a beatdown to someone who is expressing their right to think independently and have an idea of their own...
  
  Intolerance...Wonder where a kid would learn something like that????? Maybe because they know that little Johnny, who won't stand is sent to the hall. Johnny must be doing something bad when he doesn't stand. They assume he doesn't like America. Teacher called Johnny's parents to straighten him out. Johnny must be in the wrong when he doesn't stand for the pledge....Teacher doesn't tolerate anyone being an individual. Why should they.
  
  Where would they learn intolerance???? Me, Mr. Liberal as I'm known to you? Or all the conservative Christian patriots on this thread who want to "force" a kid to stand up. Forcing someone to do something...Sounds intolerant to me.
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Ever think that discussing the situation like I suggested would help them see they can be tolerant of someone they disagree with??? Nah just send em to the hall.....
• BRF

  

  One thing I think you are missing here is that we are talking about minors (of which you seem to think that they have full rights of adults). The parents set the rules. They are the boss. When a kid gets to be 18 (or 21), then they are on their own as to what they do. However, if they are still living at their parents house (which I am guessing you might be), you can throw out the age thing. They follow the rules till they are out on their own.
  
  Now, once out on their own, if they decide to not stand for the Pledge or National Anthem.......then so be it. I have not seen ONE person (adult) not stand for either in the last many many years. I wonder why?
• Strapping Young Lad

  

  Simple. It's called social pressure. Is that what you're referring to. Or is it because all the moral soldiers like yourself conditioned them to do so, at a young age.....
  
  Of course their minors. I guess to you that means they shouldn't be allowed to express views and opinions of their own, but should be dictated by their teachers and parents.
  
  You obviously have the right to be a dicator if you want. I feel bad for your kids.....
  
  Hopefully they can learn how to develop their individualism despite your best efforts to squelch it. Again, I wonder why people grow up being intolerant of others who don't think like them....I wonder why their are so many narrow minded people in the world...Could it be that all during their developmental years everyone is forced to think the same. Then when they are teens if anyone looks or thinks different they outcasts.
  
  It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that children are smothered and hardly ever experience the expression of different ideas from their peers when they're young because of overbearing authority figures like yourself....
  
  Keep making your school and the world an intolerant place. I'm out.
• BCSbunk

  BRF wrote: Excuse me, but I DO NOT force a kid to say the Pledge. I know the law. And the law says that I can have my say about it, too. If a kid refuses (like yours.......and now we know the crux of the matter here) to say the Pledge with their parents blessing, then I would see to it that that kid would not be around when it is going to be said, in other words, wait in the hall till it is over. I'll bet you would flip out if that were done to your kid! You probably want her to get that attention. Did you ever consider the harm that that might be doing to her at school among her peers?
  
  I just got back from our high school basketball game. It was really nice to see EVERYBODY in attendance, of all races and creeds, standing for the National Anthem. I suppose you have a problem with that, too?

  Sure you do. You just stated it again. You would make sure that they are in the hallway. Why not just stick a duncecap on them while you are at it. That is using your position to intimidate.
  
  She would be out of your class in a split second. I am glad the teacher she has in this regards is tolerant. You are showing nazi behavior, recite the pledge or be banished to the hall you insolent child.
  
  Also on the comment of the Crux of the problem? There is no problem except in your intolerent mind. It is not illegal to not recite the pledge at least not yet. I know there are fanatics who would love to force people to say it, or set them out in the hallway to show what happens to dissenters.
  
  I find it disturbing you are abusing authority in this way.
  
  
  Have I thought about the "harm." What harm? the harm in your imagination? She is one of the leaders in her class.
  
  "I just got back from our high school basketball game. It was really nice to see EVERYBODY in attendance, of all races and creeds, standing for the National Anthem. I suppose you have a problem with that, too?"
  
  Red Herring.
• BCSbunk

  BRF wrote:
  Now, once out on their own, if they decide to not stand for the Pledge or National Anthem.......then so be it. I have not seen ONE person (adult) not stand for either in the last many many years. I wonder why?

  Appeal to the majority, a well known fallacy.
• BCSbunk

  BRF wrote:
  I have many students who I have to stop from giving a "beat down" to anyone who doesn't honor our country. This might shock you, but I say that that is their right, although we may disagree. So that is where the calling the parents comes into play. Why do you have such a beef about that?
  
  Your take on me and my teaching is quite laughable.
  
  You really have no idea.

  Oh it is shocking. More shocking that you state that "it is their right"
  
  And I absolutely disagree. You are endorsing breaking the law with the comment "it is their right" to beatdown those that do not honor our country.
  
  So what we have here is someone who wants to punish those who have broken no laws(not reciting the pledge) and endorses breaking the law of our country. (physical assault) "it is their right" to beatdown those that do not honor our country.
  
  You have no business teaching youth.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  I think you guys are taking what BRF said the wrong way. He said:
  

  If a kid refuses (like yours.......and now we know the crux of the matter here) to say the Pledge with their parents blessing, then I would see to it that that kid would not be around when it is going to be said, in other words, wait in the hall till it is over.

  If the kid doesn't want any part of saying the Pledge, then he isn't. Because he's separated from it totally. I would think that you guys would be happy that said kid isn't being "tainted" from Nazism by being in the same room as the recited Pledge...?
• BCSbunk

  CenterBHSFan wrote: I think you guys are taking what BRF said the wrong way. He said:
  

  If a kid refuses (like yours.......and now we know the crux of the matter here) to say the Pledge with their parents blessing, then I would see to it that that kid would not be around when it is going to be said, in other words, wait in the hall till it is over.

  If the kid doesn't want any part of saying the Pledge, then he isn't. Because he's separated from it totally. I would think that you guys would be happy that said kid isn't being "tainted" from Nazism by being in the same room as the recited Pledge...?

  Strawman argument Center.
  
  Seperating from the classroom is not seperating from the pledge.
• HitsRus

  

  ^^^oooh Mr. logical fallacy expert.
  
  BRF is entirely right in not assigning full 'rights' to minors. You can't flip off a teacher or any other authority figure. Why should you be allowed to flip off your your country? The educator/teacher in this case has a duty to inform the parents of his child's behavior. There is no way that a child has thoughtfully formulated an opinion that would require him by conscience to not show respect to his country. Not standing in respect for your country then is either a show of petulance and/ or attention seeking behavior, or is being driven by the parents, and it is important to assertain which. If it is by the parents choice, then the parents should decide what/where their child does while the pledge is being said.
  Equating 'Naziism' with a devleoping/instilling a healthy love/respect for one's country is not logical either.(slippery slope).