posted by gut

 

I'm just challenging the idea that arming teacher is going to be a significant deterrent.  The most effective thing that can be done is lock schools down and be vigilant about who you let in the building. 

Do we really want to trust these people with guns when they can't even monitor/control who has access to their campus?

 

I agree with this. Seems to be the easiest approach to preventing school shootings at least. Crazy that you even make this calculus but you're probably rather mass shooters go to other places than schools and the easiest way to encourage them to do so would be making it harder to get in the front door of buildings which, by and large and pretty much brick behemoths in any case.

How many private businesses require you to have a key card to get up and down an elevator, inside a door, etc. while people can walk in and out of my old high school like it's nothing...

If we arm teachers en masse - even if they are highly competent accidental gun deaths would soon surpass mass shooting deaths in schools just because of bad luck - if I were to guess. 

posted by BoatShoes

I don't agree or disagree with this comment - I just want to point out that this is the same logical reasoning that the left uses when the government fails to prevent crime and that you routinely deride. 

Liberals - Government complaints to the FBI fail? The left says the answer is more government safeguards. 

Conservatives - Good Guys With Guns fail or fail to deter? We need more good guys with guns. 

The correct approach in a nation with 300 million guns is probably a little bit of both but that will never happen anytime soon because liberals and conservatives cannot debate firearm regulation reform in good faith. 

 

There are simply too many guns out there to even pretend that part of the solution shouldn't be (or can't be) more security and yes, more good guys with guns. The idea that we can ban our way to safety is so absurd, it's not worthy of serious discussion.

posted by gut

 

I'm just challenging the idea that arming teacher is going to be a significant deterrent.  The most effective thing that can be done is lock schools down and be vigilant about who you let in the building. 

Do we really want to trust these people with guns when they can't even monitor/control who has access to their campus?

 

This is my opinion as well. New schools are being put up annually. Hopefully we're phasing out old buildings with little to no security for schools with locked perimeter doors (maybe even locked from the inside - they can be unlocked by faculty and automatically during fire drills, etc. -- just thinking out loud). and all visitors must be let in after proving they have good reason to be there. Students need to be more aware and report what seems odd. The agencies receiving the reports need to do their damn jobs and follow up. 

posted by BoatShoes

I don't agree or disagree with this comment - I just want to point out that this is the same logical reasoning that the left uses when the government fails to prevent crime and that you routinely deride. 

Liberals - Government complaints to the FBI fail? The left says the answer is more government safeguards. 

Conservatives - Good Guys With Guns fail or fail to deter? We need more good guys with guns. 

The correct approach in a nation with 300 million guns is probably a little bit of both but that will never happen anytime soon because liberals and conservatives cannot debate firearm regulation reform in good faith. 

 

The cop was not a good guy with a gun. He was coward who tried to hide it in a school the last couple years so he could get his pension. 

posted by BoatShoes

What is your stance on private businesses disallowing their employees from carrying or private individuals from carrying on their premises? Not trolling - just curious - as this seems to be a debate within libertarian/conservative politics these days e.g. NRA is for preventing businesses from denying concealed carry on basically natural rights grounds while Chamber of Commerce is against it on basically natural rights grounds

I believe in property rights. The owner is free to set the rules for their property regarding guns.

posted by BoatShoes

What is your stance on private businesses disallowing their employees from carrying or private individuals from carrying on their premises? 

For liability reasons, it's almost inconceivable to me that businesses don't ban guns, especially with client facing roles.

Someone asked about a convenience store.  I'd rather take other measures (and I've seen it done) than have my clerk in a gun confrontation - someone gets shot, justified or not, and my business is probably ruined.

posted by BoatShoes

Crazy that you even make this calculus but you're probably rather mass shooters go to other places than schools

I think children are targeted because it's an especially traumatic impact.  And the worst part is the media coverage - I think all these wackos crave the notoriety.  The name will always leak out, but I think the media can report the story without identifying the shooter.

But it's Vegas that should scare the living hell out of people.  How do you prevent that?  I can't imagine how many parade/sport/concert/etc. venues nationwide are overlooked by high rise hotels.

posted by superman

The cop was not a good guy with a gun. He was coward who tried to hide it in a school the last couple years so he could get his pension. 

I’m seeing a lot of people throwing the word coward around about this guy. 

1. Why don’t we wait and at least hear the cop’s side of the story before we convict him. 

2. Unless you have run towards a live shooter - or a similar life threatening danger, I believe you have no business calling someone a coward for not don’t the same. You can call him a guy in the wrong job certainly. None of us knows what we’d do in a situation like that until faced with it. 

3. A guy’s being called a coward by people that don’t know a thing about him. 

posted by gut

But it's Vegas that should scare the living hell out of people.  How do you prevent that?  I can't imagine how many parade/sport/concert/etc. venues nationwide are overlooked by high rise hotels.

Yeah, it’s damn near impossible to stop. That Vegas shooter was supposed to be in a room at the top of the Congress Hotel overlooking lollapalooza. Would have shot right down at me. I was at that stage Saturday night under the Congress. You can’t stop crazy. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I’m seeing a lot of people throwing the word coward around about this guy. 

1. Why don’t we wait and at least hear the cop’s side of the story before we convict him. 

2. Unless you have run towards a live shooter - or a similar life threatening danger, I believe you have no business calling someone a coward for not don’t the same. You can call him a guy in the wrong job certainly. None of us knows what we’d do in a situation like that until faced with it. 

3. A guy’s being called a coward by people that don’t know a thing about him. 

This guy is a coward for not helping CHILDREN getting slaughtered. Spare me the “you don’t know what you’d do in that situation” bullshit. I don’t care if there’s a 100% chance I’m dying, if children are inside a school trapped with a psychopath with a gun shooting them, I’m running in to try SOMETHING. 

posted by SportsAndLady

Yeah, it’s damn near impossible to stop. That Vegas shooter was supposed to be in a room at the top of the Congress Hotel overlooking lollapalooza. Would have shot right down at me. I was at that stage Saturday night under the Congress. You can’t stop crazy. 

I saw that.  Just look at parades and marathons in the big cities and the many, many places Vegas could repeat itself.

As for the gun control stuff.  It's a nice idea, but look at how successful we are at stopping drugs, sex slaves and other shit (and illegal immigrants) coming into this country.  The Vegas shooter, if he couldn't get himself a "legal" automatic weapon, certainly had the means and motivation to acquire an illegal M16.  And it will take 100 years, maybe longer, for all the stolen guns currently out there to disappear or stop working (ignoring 3D printed weapons are literally right around the corner from being mainstream).

posted by SportsAndLady

This guy is a coward for not helping CHILDREN getting slaughtered. Spare me the “you don’t know what you’d do in that situation” bullshit. I don’t care if there’s a 100% chance I’m dying, if children are inside a school trapped with a psychopath with a gun shooting them, I’m running in to try SOMETHING. 

Don’t agree with S&L much, but that guy was a pussy. The only reason you have an armed officer at a school is to stop a shooting, it was literally his only real job. I’m not asking him to sacrifice himself, but he could have snuck in and engaged the shooter. 15 year olds were sacrificing themselves for other kids and you got this old ass dude (and as we now learned 3 others) hiding outside. It’s despicable. Not only should he not be allowed to retire with a pension but he should be sued, as should the sheriff and the entire department.

The fucked up thing, which doesn’t help liberal arguments, is that courts have sided that cops don’t legally have to protect anyone so nothing will happen to the guy other than being embarrassed the rest of his life.

posted by SportsAndLady

This guy is a coward for not helping CHILDREN getting slaughtered. Spare me the “you don’t know what you’d do in that situation” bullshit. I don’t care if there’s a 100% chance I’m dying, if children are inside a school trapped with a psychopath with a gun shooting them, I’m running in to try SOMETHING. 

We would all like to think we’d do the same. But there is no way to know the answer until faced with it. Saying you’d do it if in the same situation - if you’ve never had the experience - doesn’t mean anything. 

I think we should wait to hear the whole story before we pass judgement on the guy - to not act like his police chief. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

We would all like to think we’d do the same. But there is no way to know the answer until faced with it. Saying you’d do it if in the same situation - if you’ve never had the experience - doesn’t mean anything. 

 

I think we should wait to hear the whole story before we pass judgement on the guy - to not act like his police chief. 

You’re in charge of protecting a school, and someone is inside shooting the innocent children, and you’re not sure how you’d respond? 

posted by SportsAndLady

You’re in charge of protecting a school, and someone is inside shooting the innocent children, and you’re not sure how you’d respond? 

I would expect myself to get in there - just like you. 

My my point on this guy is that I think we need to withhold judgement until all the story’s been told. If he failed in his duty, that is bad.  He would have failed at something a lot of other people would have failed at too. On top of that, he will have to live with unimaginable guilt. 

The FBI and the sheriff are much more culpable though. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

 

The FBI and the sheriff are much more culpable though. 

Disagree. If he were some gomer that just happened to be there, fine. When I took my concealed weapons training, we were told that just because a lot of people choose to live as sheep, we aren't signing up to be sheepdogs. Law enforcement officers sign up to be that, take an oath to be that, get paid to be that. A LOT of blood is on his hands.

The issue with the cop(s) who did nothing is that their job was specifically to do something. It's not some scenario where some teachers who've done nothing but training classes and gun practice got confronted with an actual "DGAF" shooter and froze. This is a person whose job entails minor details such as "to protect and serve" and for whatever reason (cowardice and incompetence are the only two coming to mind) chose not to in a situation where his presence could have ended the situation or at least provided a means for more students to survive.

It says a lot when an assistant football coach and a youth ROTC member were willing to sacrifice themselves to protect others and another random kid is (I think) still in a hospital with five gunshot wounds because he did the same, but the guy whose presence is supposed to be the preventative measure for these things was nowhere to be found when the shit hit the fan.

posted by SportsAndLady

You’re in charge of protecting a school, and someone is inside shooting the innocent children, and you’re not sure how you’d respond? 

It all comes down to the fight or flight response.   Just because he was a cop doesn't mean he has the fight and until he was put into the situation there is no way to know for sure.

As a cop, or a soldier, you woild expect him to fight but obviously that cop was a complete coward.

We would all hope we woild respond with the fight but in every situation we see those who flee, those who protect others and  those who tend to the injured.    

Anyone catch the Sheriff this morning? No clue how that condescending fuck still hasn’t resigned. Jake Tapper, who usually plays prettt even on twitter but leans more left on tv, absolutely destroyed him.

https://twitter.com/ellisonbarber/status/967772145072865280?s=12

posted by iclfan2

Anyone catch the Sheriff this morning? No clue how that condescending fuck still hasn’t resigned. Jake Tapper, who usually plays prettt even on twitter but leans more left on tv, absolutely destroyed him.

https://twitter.com/ellisonbarber/status/967772145072865280?s=12

Didn’t watch, but I really question how in the hell this guy is in charge. All it’s been is excuses from him. At least the FBI leadership stepped up and acknowledged that they’d failed along tje line and will investigate to figure out why. This guy constantly blames the legal system for his office’s failure. Then he throws his own guy totally under the bus. That school officer may have failed in his duty, but a leader does not publicly cast blame on one of his own team members. I’d never want to be a cop on this guy’s force. 

4 cops standing outside does make you wonder....Were they told to stand down (or wait for SWAT)?  Or is this one of those lazy suburbs where none of the officers on the force have ever fired their gun?

unreal

posted by justincredible

Who wants to look down the bar fell of that?

No one.

But when you sign up for some jobs that is something you kinda signed up for.

That asst fb coach didn't have that in his job description but he did it.

The cop is a coward 

It reminds me of the scene in Saving Private Ryan, where that journalist froze.