posted by Dr Winston O'BoogieNo I won’t. There are probably a lot o socialists in CA.
#calexit. Please.
posted by iclfan2I'm with you. I also don't know how I think the law should be interpreted. It's a fine line.
If you sign up to be a cop and sit back while children are dying, I'm not sure if firing is enough of a punishment. If you sign up for a job or a profession, there are consequences for your actions. He also didn't just not risk death, he sat there for 45 minutes, and told the other cops to not engage.
I mean, I don't think firing is all he's getting. Pretty sure the guy is a pariah, as well, and regardless of how inept he is, I doubt he sleeps well.
If he actually ordered other officers not to approach, how would we charge that? My initial thought would maybe be negligent homicide, but that would require that the prosecution meet the burden of proof to show that him ordering the other officers to not engage was not only negligent, but criminally so.
Maybe we could glean something from the subsequent investigation with regard to mens rea?
posted by SpockDoes the guy deserve to be in jail for not doing their job? Probably not. Is he liable for negligent behavior? Yep 100%
I think you have a point there. If there were say, 10 gunmen inside shooting up 30 people, then an argument can be made that the cop should probably hold off until more help arrives. However, in this case, where there is one gunman shooting up a school of a hundred plus, then the cop has an obligation to intervene immediately in such a ’one-on-one’ scenario.
posted by QuakerOats
I think you have a point there. If there were say, 10 gunmen inside shooting up 30 people, then an argument can be made that the cop should probably hold off until more help arrives. However, in this case, where there is one gunman shooting up a school of a hundred plus, then the cop has an obligation to intervene immediately in such a ’one-on-one’ scenario.
Obligation? Sure.
LEGAL obligation? I'm not sure I can buy that without seeing a case made for it.
Also, I don't know that there's a good means for delineating how many gunmen (or even unarmed assailants) would cause such a law to not be applicable.
posted by O-TrapThat sheriff that stayed safely away from the school during the shooting?
I'm not sure how I feel about that. I mean, it's his job, but doesn't that mean he should be fired? It seems a little harsh to charge someone as a criminal for not putting their life at risk, does it not?
Don't get me wrong; the guy needs fired. Putting himself in harm's way is part of his job, so if he can't do it, then he shouldn't have the job.
Prosecution just seems harsh for that. I'm still mulling it over, though.
On second thought, I agree more with this. He definitely needs to be fired. I'm not sure if he deserves jail.
posted by O-TrapObligation? Sure.
LEGAL obligation? I'm not sure I can buy that without seeing a case made for it.
Also, I don't know that there's a good means for delineating how many gunmen (or even unarmed assailants) would cause such a law to not be applicable.
“obligation” may be the wrong word; “duty” is likely more appropriate.
posted by QuakerOats
“obligation” may be the wrong word; “duty” is likely more appropriate.
Well again, I certainly think they have a moral duty to use their training to do what they're employed to do, which includes putting their lives at risk.
However, I still don't know if I can tell someone, "Go risk dying, or you're going to jail."
Again, if there's some way of determining intent, or if you can establish that there was something else criminal going on, I could maybe see negligent homicide, but otherwise, I can't see it.
In other news, bc Vox is a bitch and people treat them as real news, Youtube is starting to demonitizing people who insult other people. I'm sure that bodes well for them
posted by O-TrapWell again, I certainly think they have a moral duty to use their training to do what they're employed to do, which includes putting their lives at risk.
However, I still don't know if I can tell someone, "Go risk dying, or you're going to jail."
Again, if there's some way of determining intent, or if you can establish that there was something else criminal going on, I could maybe see negligent homicide, but otherwise, I can't see it.
I was not advocating for jail time. I was pondering the notion that he could be liable, perhaps in a civil suit, for damages to family members of the slain for failing to do his duty.
If a cop can be convicted of manslaughter for gross negligence in use of force....then wouldn't it stand to reason that a cop could be criminally negligent for failing to engage an active shooter?
He, of course, won't be convicted because the defense is going to say WAIT A MINUTE - the FBI was alerted about this guy and did nothing! If you're going to indict him for failure to do his duty, then where are the indictments for the FBI people?
Also, the larger implications are a slippery slope. Why didn't you arrest her husband the last time she filed a DV complaint? Why didn't you drive faster? You were negligent making a wrong turn. You had time to go back into that burning building. Becomes pretty obvious we probably can't prosecute first-responders for inaction and choices they didn't make.
posted by QuakerOats
I was not advocating for jail time. I was pondering the notion that he could be liable, perhaps in a civil suit, for damages to family members of the slain for failing to do his duty.
Oh, I see. Eh, maybe. It still seems like a hard pill to swallow, because it's still basically saying he is being penalized for not risking his life.
Certainly more reasonable than jail time, though. At least as far as I can reason.
posted by gutIf a cop can be convicted of manslaughter for gross negligence in use of force....then wouldn't it stand to reason that a cop could be criminally negligent for failing to engage an active shooter?
While I understand linking the two, I see a difference. A difference we acknowledge on a civilian basis.
If I, a non-officer, refrain from saving someone I might be able to save because I wasn't willing to put my life on the line, that's not a crime.
On the other hand, if I hastily shoot someone without sufficient cause (as determined by a box of jurors), that is a crime.
I can see a parallel with officers there.
As for the slippery slope notion ... it's possible. There's nothing to suggest it HAS to go there, but those are examples worth considering if and when someone actually decides to define the letter of the law as it pertains to 'negligence' in law enforcement.
I agree with otrap. It is a slippery slope. How about stripping him of his pension and/or allowing him to be sued? I am not going to pretend I know how police departments work, but the oath should be more of a contract.
Well it all comes down to, ultimately public outrage. Peterson explicitly told lies on camera/interviews and when compared to actual live footage that was the icing on the cake. Besides some bad public opinion Israel has been able to squirm himself out of the spotlight lately. This is the tipping point, I think, where somebody has to take the fall in a very public manner. Lawyers and courts aren't through with this yet, so we'll have to wait and see what the cake looks like when properly icinged.
Speaking of this, somebody on Twitter played a bit from FOX where it was some round table. They were talking about all of this and hashing out each's opinions. (And as an aside, I have to say that I really wish that Juan Williams was my dad growing up. As a kid you could probably get away with whatever you wanted to if you played up his feelings enough lol! Don't get me wrong, I think he's one of the nicest presenters on cable news, if not the only nice one. But I think that's also a major drawback for him because at times he really seems to get lost in the fog of feelings. I'm pretty sure he'd let me get away with things that my dad would have given me caulifower ear for.)
Anyway, the majority of them were hard on Peterson and a few brought up how Israel was also "to blame" because of his manipulations of the situation. At one point CNN was brought up and how they staged that town hall basically to go after Dana Loesch and the NRA while white-knighting Israel.
And this is where I get to my point. This whole thing from start to now has been using big media to utilize fear mongering, lies, secrecy, weaponizing other kids from that school and massive misdirection. I have to wonder if the pageantry that has gone on never happened and things went right to dealing with the heart of the matter, if Peterson's arrest would even happen.
posted by CenterBHSFan...using big media to utilize fear mongering, lies, secrecy, weaponizing other kids from that school and massive misdirection.
That's essentially the roadmap for to push the major liberal agenda, whether climate change or guns or healthcare or college tuition, etc...
I wonder how many mass shooters they're creating when their Hitler youth grow-up to realize they were used and deceived?
posted by QuakerOatshttps://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/06/05/straight-pride-parade-boston-group-planned/
hmm
" John Hugo is the president of a group calling itself Super Happy Fun America ...."
Well, this seems appropriate:
I am glad I read this and know that I am not racist, why........my brain doesnt work that way to even think this shit up
posted by Spock
I am glad I read this and know that I am not racist, why........my brain doesnt work that way to even think this shit up
Stopped reading after Stacy Abrams. Retards.
Still laughing at all the “what if’s” trump doesn’t win and never concedes the election while the left ignores that idiot.
posted by iclfan2Still laughing at all the “what if’s” trump doesn’t win and never concedes the election while the left ignores that idiot.
That's essentially the leftwing version of the "birther" argument. It's absolutely ridiculous with no basis in reality. But unlike the "birther" argument, this is fairly mainstream and common. Bill Maher keeps saying "OMG OMG OMG Trump is never leaving office, not even after 8 years".
Although I think I may have seen where Limbaugh or someone like that talked about if Dems had taken the House and Senate in 2014, they were going to re-write the rules so Obama could run for a 3rd term. LOL, Obama wanted out of that job so bad, and I'm sure in no small part because he wanted to go cash-in.
Happy to see the cultural Marxist bastion that is Oberlin College take a beat down and will have to pay $11 millions to Gibson’s Bakery and owners for their misguided SJW antics. Punitive damages on top of this coming also. Could not happen to a nicer bunch of jackasses.
posted by QuakerOats
Happy to see the cultural Marxist bastion that is Oberlin College take a beat down and will have to pay $11 millions to Gibson’s Bakery and owners for their misguided SJW antics. Punitive damages on top of this coming also. Could not happen to a nicer bunch of jackasses.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/06/accountability-for-oberlin.php
Three black students shoplift from the store, admit guilt, and then the school and students launch destructive boycotts and protests against the store they robbed. And a college of higher education promotes their lunacy and marches with them.
Is this the fucking twilight zone?
posted by QuakerOats
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/06/accountability-for-oberlin.php
Three black students shoplift from the store, admit guilt, and then the school and students launch destructive boycotts and protests against the store they robbed. And a college of higher education promotes their lunacy and marches with them.
Is this the fucking twilight zone?
The school's students (and apparently at least one faculty member) are bordering on insane.
Having said that, so is a suit for $11 million for libel and slander against a mom-and-pop bakery in Oberlin, OH.
This whole story just reeks of stupid.
Back in my day (in the late 60's and early 70's), Oberlin was a bastion of liberalness.
Anti-everything of the day. Always a chip on the shoulder. Nice to see that they are keeping up the tradition.
/Tommie Smith fist pump
https://www.breitbart.com/sports/2019/06/11/yoga-instructor-teaches-class-aimed-undoing-whiteness/
Wait? WUT? Seattle Yoga instructor just wreaks of whiteness.
This stuff makes my head hurt
“White-bodied people need to understand that just because you aren’t a former KKK member doesn’t mean you aren’t upholding white supremacy when you aren’t learning to do it,” says williams, a Zen priest and founder of Center for Transformative Change in Berkeley, California, who frequently writes on racial justice.”