posted by gut

You will ultimately receive treatment, and then when the bill comes you will declare bankruptcy.  Because if what you said was true (only treated if you have the money), then there would be no medical bankruptcies.  Correct?

Happens every day.  Most people who are worth anything, could have afforded insurance but chose to spend their money on other things.  Those who aren't worth anything don't really have anything to lose.  And there's a relatively small group of people who are[were] rejected with pre-existing conditions.  Which is an issue that could have been solved much more simply.

 

Mt. Carmel is not going to provide surgery and chemo as a cancer regimen to someone with no insurance. Yes they will stabilize someone in off the street. Most hospitals will. But they are not going to set off on a course of treatment like this for a patient with no ability to pay. 

posted by gut

You will ultimately receive treatment, and then when the bill comes you will declare bankruptcy.  Because if what you said was true (only treated if you have the money), then there would be no medical bankruptcies.  Correct?

Happens every day.  Most people who are worth anything, could have afforded insurance but chose to spend their money on other things.  Those who aren't worth anything don't really have anything to lose.  And there's a relatively small group of people who are[were] rejected with pre-existing conditions.  Which is an issue that could have been solved much more simply.

 

Well, no. Insurance pays so much then maxes out. If you have cancer there's a good chance your treatment will outlast your insurance. The bill still comes. You still owe it.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

So if I was diagnosed with lung cancer, told I needed surgery and chemo, but didn't carry insurance, I could just drive over to Mt. Carmel, present myself and receive the cancer treatment I need?  

I don't think so. 

After confirming that your financial position is what you claim, and determining what (if anything) you can pay, yes.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4808451/user-clip-dr-robert-epstein-testimony

posted by gut

1) that's hyperbole

2) you're ignoring the massive role GOVERNMENT (and the federal reserve) played in the housing crisis

 

This.  The socialists have done a great job branding this as a capitalism issue and completely disregarding the Government's role.  It takes two to play.  The Government's role in crony capitalism is much worse than the private's role, considering they can actually pass laws making it extremely difficult for other businesses to thrive.

posted by kizer permanente

When I say it does more for the top than the bottom, I mean there's exponentially more wealth growth at the top than bottom. The income disparity here is pretty noticeable.

I can see this outlook if you completely disregard the affordable commodities/services available to lower and middle class citizens due to capitalism. 

posted by kizer permanente

I'm also not of the belief that we need to spend nearly the amount on defense that we do. Seems a lot of spending IS based on crony-capitalism. 

I agree.  The government needs to cut a lot of fat and defense is a huge part of it.  Capitalism would thrive even more if they did this.

posted by kizer permanente

So we hear this all the time... countries with socialized medicine just wait and die to see a doctor. Yet their mortality rates and quality of life rates are always higher than Americans... so someone isn't telling the truth. and it's always the other person. 

Are you going to completely disregard lifestyle?   A lot of countries live a much healthier lifestyle than Americans.  Just living in Italy alone (ranked top 3 healthiest country), portions are smaller, everyone walks, everything is fresh, everyone eats healthy options, etc...  

All of this plays a much larger role in our mortality and QOL rates, than being able to go to a doctor.  BTW, the US' mortality rate dropped AFTER Obamacare was passed (aka socialist healthcare lite).  The US also has the most innovative and highest quality health care in the world.  Look at the world ranking of hospitals and see how the US dominates.  If you took out Government's role , not doubt it would thrive even more and prices would go down.  I know you will say this is what the old system was, but it wasn't.  It has been a highly regulated industry since the 70s. 

posted by O-Trap

Erm ... why?  It's just the caucus.


 

posted by gut

Sure, this is anecdotal but probably not surprising:  A friend's mom was in the hospital a few months ago.  There was a couple there from Ontario to have surgery....said healthcare in Canada is a mess, that the hospitals are filthy and overrun (apparently the homeless come in and use the healthcare system for shelter in the winter).  So obviously they're paying out-of-pocket to get quality care in the US.

I've heard similar from a few Canadian friends.  If it's something small that they go to their GP for, they prefer Canada's system, but if it's a major surgery or a specialist they need, they come to the US.

There is one exception who is really funny.  She's a dear friend, and when she's not talking politics, she's a lovely woman, but she thinks Canada shits gold, and she refuses to get medical treatment in the US, because she buys into the notion that the Canadian single-payer system is hilariously superior to the US system.  Well, a few months ago, she unfortunately found herself with a cancerous tumor.  Not being a hypocrite, she insisted on having her treatment in Canada, but the whole time, she complained about the condition of the hospital, the competence of the hospital staff, and the ridiculous (and they were) wait times.

Now, at no point has she come around to admitting that she might be better off being treated in the US, mostly because she's stubborn (she has more than enough money to cover it out of pocket), but it's funny to see her be such a champion for their healthcare system and yet do nothing but complain when she's using it.

 

Same shit in Italy.  It's available to everyone, but everyone ends up paying extra for private clinics, because it is such a shit show to go to public clinics/hospitals.   Same shit with the military.  I have been around it my whole life.  Ask anyone in the military how they feel about Tricare and the majority of the responses is "it's nice to have for little things like colds, etc, but anything major it's terrible."   That seems to be the universal outlook on socialized healthcare.
 

posted by like_that

This.  The socialists have done a great job branding this as a capitalism issue and completely disregarding the Government's role.  It takes two to play.  The Government's role in crony capitalism is much worse than the private's role, considering they can actually pass laws making it extremely difficult for other businesses to thrive.

It's the damnedest thing.  There were multiple federal agencies tasked with overseeing and regulating what all went to hell, which means that even the redundancy didn't do shit, because the agencies were either corrupt, incompetent, asleep at the wheel, or some combination of those, which renders them useless anyway (even for their intended purpose, which can be debated as either a good or bad thing anyway).
 

posted by like_that

I can see this outlook if you completely disregard the affordable commodities/services available to lower and middle class citizens due to capitalism.

This is absolutely true..  Also, the quantities available, such that there's never a scarcity issue for so much of it, which is also a result of open competition.
 

posted by like_that

I agree.  The government needs to cut a lot of fat and defense is a huge part of it.  Capitalism would thrive even more if they did this.

Frankly, it's probably where we can afford to cut the most.  Obviously, if you're going to have a military, have a strong one, but you don't need to be able to take on literally every other country in the world at the same time.

Our military spending is insane. We've built an empire and justify it by our exceptionalism. We've also tied support of the military in its current state to patriotism. Now every kid who enlists, gets college paid for and drives a truck at Ft Knox gets treated like he's Audie Murphy "thanks for your service". 

You don't like war? Why don't you support the troops?

posted by justincredible

You don't like war? Why don't you support the troops?

Exactly the problem.  It's not unpatriotic to challenge the size and mission of our military. Yes, front line soldiers deserve our admiration for their risks, but that doesn't mean the mission they've been sent to do is right. 

This idea too that everyone who signs up for the military attains hero status is BS. We're paying for a hell of a lot of people to go to college, get great training and never do anything more to protect our freedom than a working class guy doing a typical 9-5. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Our military spending is insane. We've built an empire and justify it by our exceptionalism. We've also tied support of the military in its current state to patriotism. Now every kid who enlists, gets college paid for and drives a truck at Ft Knox gets treated like he's Audie Murphy "thanks for your service". 

One of the many reasons I loved my grandfather.  He hated all the "thank you for your service" stuff.  Had every reason to act like he deserved it, but he loathed it.

If you want to be in the military, be in the military.  I even appreciate that many do so with the intent of putting their lives on the line for my safety and freedom.  But can we please drop the hero worship?
 

posted by justincredible

You don't like war? Why don't you support the troops?

I know.  We must be some crazy anti-Americans to want those troops overseas to be at home, safe, with their families.  What assholes we are.  ;)

Thankfully, in my town, they have stopped this stupid practice of signs in businesses windows welcoming home military by name .......for just completing basic training!

posted by O-Trap

One of the many reasons I loved my grandfather.  He hated all the "thank you for your service" stuff.  Had every reason to act like he deserved it, but he loathed it.

If you want to be in the military, be in the military.  I even appreciate that many do so with the intent of putting their lives on the line for my safety and freedom.  But can we please drop the hero worship?
 

posted by justincredible

You don't like war? Why don't you support the troops?

I know.  We must be some crazy anti-Americans to want those troops overseas to be at home, safe, with their families.  What assholes we are.  ;)

 

My sister in law is a lifer in the Army. Served in Iraq numerous times and currently out in Washington stationed.  She hates the thank you for your service bullshit. Says it is mostly empty from folks and they just say it because they cannot relate to soldiers. She has long said what is better is how are you doing, or striking up a simple convo and letting the soldier lead the discussion. Also, she is big into people should be giving more to the groups like TAPS, PTSD groups, and survivor funds if they really care. She also agrees the defense budget is way too bloated, but also underfunded in critical areas. The big shiny items like the F-35, new ships, subs, and the all are eating up the more critical items like repairs to existing infrastructure on bases and O&M for existing vehicles for training. 

This guy is completely stable and normal.

https://twitter.com/jordylancaster/status/1225222445927411712

posted by ptown_trojans_1

My sister in law is a lifer in the Army. Served in Iraq numerous times and currently out in Washington stationed.  She hates the thank you for your service bullshit. Says it is mostly empty from folks and they just say it because they cannot relate to soldiers. She has long said what is better is how are you doing, or striking up a simple convo and letting the soldier lead the discussion. Also, she is big into people should be giving more to the groups like TAPS, PTSD groups, and survivor funds if they really care. She also agrees the defense budget is way too bloated, but also underfunded in critical areas. The big shiny items like the F-35, new ships, subs, and the all are eating up the more critical items like repairs to existing infrastructure on bases and O&M for existing vehicles for training. 

My brother-in-law has mentioned that latter point, as well.  We have more than enough money being spent on the military, but it's just not being allocated very well.

Anyway, I'm listening to Romney and thinking he got it exactly right.  Which, sadly, makes him the ONLY ONE out of some 535 representatives in the House and Senate.  No wonder things are so fucked up.

And, of course, the media makes him into some sort of white knight.  How about what Romney said about Obstruction of Congress - what about every Democrat in the House voting for that?  Crickets.

posted by gut

Anyway, I'm listening to Romney and thinking he got it exactly right.  Which, sadly, makes him the ONLY ONE out of some 535 representatives in the House and Senate.  No wonder things are so fucked up.

And, of course, the media makes him into some sort of white knight.  How about what Romney said about Obstruction of Congress - what about every Democrat in the House voting for that?  Crickets.

Nancy's busy tearing up papers that make her sad. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Nancy's busy tearing up papers that make her sad. 

I think it's hilarious.  Just another planned, political stunt....and, predictably, what people think of it depends on what party they vote for.

I really don't want 4 more years of Trump, but the extreme meltdowns from the Left is something I just don't want to miss out on.

posted by justincredible

This guy is completely stable and normal.

https://twitter.com/jordylancaster/status/1225222445927411712

He wouldnt be able to tell anyone one reason why he would do that either.  

posted by gut

I think it's hilarious.  Just another planned, political stunt....and, predictably, what people think of it depends on what party they vote for.

I really don't want 4 more years of Trump, but the extreme meltdowns from the Left is something I just don't want to miss out on.

Why wouldnt you want 4 more years of a president who is Pro American business?  Pro military, pro police, pro constitution, pro tax cuts, pro fair trade????? 

Donald Trump and his policies have literally done nothing to American citizens.  

posted by justincredible

This guy is completely stable and normal.

https://twitter.com/jordylancaster/status/1225222445927411712

I have a prediction.  This kid is going to be featured in a news story someday that involves the phrase, "He then turned the gun on himself."

If there's ever been a stronger case for recreational weed being legal everywhere, I have yet to see it.
 

posted by gut

Anyway, I'm listening to Romney and thinking he got it exactly right.  Which, sadly, makes him the ONLY ONE out of some 535 representatives in the House and Senate.  No wonder things are so fucked up.

And, of course, the media makes him into some sort of white knight.  How about what Romney said about Obstruction of Congress - what about every Democrat in the House voting for that?  Crickets.

Reminds me of when the media was creaming itself over McCain over the healthcare vote.

The same media that made him out to be the Emperor from Star Wars when he ran for President ...
 

posted by gut

I think it's hilarious.  Just another planned, political stunt....and, predictably, what people think of it depends on what party they vote for.

I really don't want 4 more years of Trump, but the extreme meltdowns from the Left is something I just don't want to miss out on.

Same here.  It's too much fun to watch.  I actually saw someone claim they had a panic attack when Trump was acquitted.  lol  What???

posted by O-Trap

Same here.  It's too much fun to watch.  I actually saw someone claim they had a panic attack when Trump was acquitted.  lol  What???

People really buy into the fearmongering and caricature of Trump.  Many appear to believe whatever CNN tells them - OMG Trump is mentally unstable!!!!

After 8 years of Obama and 3 years of Trump, I realize now the POTUS is little more than a figurehead.  Yeah, he can start a war, but most of what he can do is temporary nuisance.  Trump erased EVERYTHING Obama did inside of 18 months (except for ACA, thanks to McCain).  And as for our foreign politics, other countries will keep doing what they were doing before, during and after Trump - whatever works for their own self-interest.  The only way to have a significant and lasting impact on any of that would be to destroy the US as a superpower (cough cough Bernie cough cough).

posted by gut

People really buy into the fearmongering and caricature of Trump.  Many appear to believe whatever CNN tells them - OMG Trump is mentally unstable!!!

It sometimes even seems like they take it a step further.  Like some people have a Clickhole filter in their head that interprets anything news-related.

posted by O-Trap

It sometimes even seems like they take it a step further.  Like some people have a Clickhole filter in their head that interprets anything news-related.

It's kind of like the left-wing versions of CC and Quaker, I gather. Believe everything that supports their personal opinions and refer to anything that doesn't as bullshit or fake. Because for everyone that is getting a panic attack because Trump, there's a CC giving his personal blowjob opinion on Trump's presidency a few posts above this one.

posted by Heretic

It's kind of like the left-wing versions of CC and Quaker, I gather. Believe everything that supports their personal opinions and refer to anything that doesn't as bullshit or fake. Because for everyone that is getting a panic attack because Trump, there's a CC giving his personal blowjob opinion on Trump's presidency a few posts above this one.

Oh, sure.  It just seems like some people take it a step further.  They could listen to Fox News or CNN and splice together the news story to form something even more biased and distorted than the story was.

Basically, in goes Fox News, and out comes Daily Wire.  Or in goes CNN and out comes Daily Kos.  Like a really fucked up game of Telephone.