OHSAA Competive balance commitee to meet again

• Bigdogg

  fish82;1060781 wrote:Well, I think you can pick any subject you like and I'll know at LEAST as much as you, broseph. But just for fun...other than tuition, how is the cross section different? And what pray tell does affording tuition have do do with athletic success? Are you suggestting that only kids of means are championship caliber athletes? :laugh:

  Well fish here is an opportunity for you to demonstrate your knowledge. Pick any private school near you you like. Tell me about their multiplicand program? How many students are served? After you are finished with that tell me about their alternative school also sometimes called opportunity school. You know, where the problem kids receive their last chance for education. Every public school system has these. I saw in a paper last week a superintendent stated that 10% of all students in the high school school were on probation by the courts. How many in your students in your private school are on probation? Of course I know you can not provide any of this information because private schools do not have any of these programs or students.
  
  Who suggested only kids of means are championship caliber athletes? You did, not me, just like you do in every topic you post on, you make up crap. Do you know the single most important factor in student success in the classroom? Do a little research and you will find PARENTAL PARTICIPATION by far. The private schools are full of students with highly motivated parents who have a large investment in their children's educational success. As you may or may not know, the OHSAA determines the classification of a school by the number of bodies walking around in the hall. When you thin the heard, the chances for success in the lower divisions increases. This is a factor, not the only factor for athletic success. That's all I have ever claimed.
• ManO'War

  

  sherm03;1061036 wrote:Funny you say it that way. I think the better question would be, "is it a coincidence that Ursuline started to dominate their division when the Youngstown City schools started completely tanking, and the state government felt that parents should be able to give their kids a quality education despite their economic means?"
  
  But to say that Mooney has only dominated since the advent of vouchers is silly to say the least. Mooney has had a winning tradition throughout the playoff era. So saying that their success is limited to only the time when vouchers began shows you don't know much about the topic.

  Mooney doesn't need vouchers..they have always handed out so called "financial aid".
  
  And since I'm a tax payer, I have a real problem with vouchers, since my money is going to a religious institution.
  
  Ursuline and Mooney used to be a lot bigger schools...so they are capable of accepting a lot more students, so how come all of these other kids that are trapped in the Youngstown City Schools, you know the none athletes, are not being accepted??
• fish82

  

  Bigdogg;1063174 wrote:Well fish here is an opportunity for you to demonstrate your knowledge. Pick any private school near you you like. Tell me about their multiplicand program? How many students are served? After you are finished with that tell me about their alternative school also sometimes called opportunity school. You know, where the problem kids receive their last chance for education. Every public school system has these. I saw in a paper last week a superintendent stated that 10% of all students in the high school school were on probation by the courts. How many in your students in your private school are on probation? Of course I know you can not provide any of this information because private schools do not have any of these programs or students.

  Of course they don't. Those are state programs. Yet what does any of that have to do with athletic success? At the school my eldest attends, (private) the top hitter on the State Champion VB team spent her Junior and Senior years flirting with expulsion for conduct violations. By the same token, a kid at the local alternative school damn near went to state in Wrestling. Yeah, there might not be "10% on probation," (which is at best an extreme minority situation or more likely a one-off) but if you think there aren't kids just "taking up space" at private schools, then you would be more than a little bit incorrect.
  

  Bigdogg;1063174 wrote:Who suggested only kids of means are championship caliber athletes? You did, not me, just like you do in every topic you post on, you make up crap. Do you know the single most important factor in student success in the classroom? Do a little research and you will find PARENTAL PARTICIPATION by far. The private schools are full of students with highly motivated parents who have a large investment in their children's educational success.

  You act like privates have a monopoly on parental involvement. Every parent in every district in the state has the obligation to be involved in their child's academic success. To try and turn that against them, when public school parents contribute financially in several ways to their kids education is at best disingenuous, and at worst just silly.
  

  Bigdogg;1063174 wrote:As you may or may not know, the OHSAA determines the classification of a school by the number of bodies walking around in the hall. When you thin the heard, the chances for success in the lower divisions increases. This is a factor, not the only factor for athletic success. That's all I have ever claimed.

  If it was a factor worth any attention whatsoever, then Rosecrans and Roger Bacon would be polishing numerous trophies. The number of private schools who will never sniff a title in any sport pokes a bigazz hole in the "thin the herd" argument.
• ManO'War

  

  landshark0731;1061454 wrote:So your telling me big red has never had any kids transfer from weir, Wv?

  You can't "transfer" from another state, you have to move into the state of Ohio and the school district.
  
  You can't stop people from moving and enrolling since Big Red is a public school and has to accept all comers.
  
  BTW, this isn't about Big Red...we do just fine playing the private schools. This is about the vast majority of public schools who the privates, with all their advantages, have the nerve to tell "just work harder".
  
  It's easy to work hard when you are constantly bringing in 300 lb lineman, and division 1 caliber skill players.
  
  You know as well as I do that for any school, let alone a lower division school, that it is impossible...but it happens every year in some of these schools.
• fish82

  

  ManO'War;1063329 wrote:You can't "transfer" from another state, you have to move into the state of Ohio and the school district.
  
  You can't stop people from moving and enrolling since Big Red is a public school and has to accept all comers.
  
  BTW, this isn't about Big Red...we do just fine playing the private schools. This is about the vast majority of public schools who the privates, with all their advantages, have the nerve to tell "just work harder".
  
  It's easy to work hard when you are constantly bringing in 300 lb lineman, and division 1 caliber skill players.
  
  You know as well as I do that for any school, let alone a lower division school, that it is impossible...but it happens every year in some of these schools.

  No it doesn't. If it did, Ursuline wouldn't be back at 4-6. Benny has been a non-factor for years now...hell, you don't have to look back that far to see Mooney going 0-10. Like you said, you guys do fine against them...as do many others. If "just work harder" isn't the answer, what's your secret?
• genghis dong

  ManO'War;1063323 wrote:Mooney doesn't need vouchers..they have always handed out so called "financial aid".
  
  And since I'm a tax payer, I have a real problem with vouchers, since my money is going to a religious institution.
  
  Ursuline and Mooney used to be a lot bigger schools...so they are capable of accepting a lot more students, so how come all of these other kids that are trapped in the Youngstown City Schools, you know the none athletes, are not being accepted??

  Yes Mooney has been handing out financial aid for years. I played football in the 90's and got no financial aid. My two sisters that were not 300 pound lineman nor did they run a 4.2 40, but they got financial aid all 4 years they were there.
• genghis dong

  ManO'War;1063329 wrote:You can't "transfer" from another state, you have to move into the state of Ohio and the school district.
  
  You can't stop people from moving and enrolling since Big Red is a public school and has to accept all comers.
  
  BTW, this isn't about Big Red...we do just fine playing the private schools. This is about the vast majority of public schools who the privates, with all their advantages, have the nerve to tell "just work harder".
  
  It's easy to work hard when you are constantly bringing in 300 lb lineman, and division 1 caliber skill players.
  
  You know as well as I do that for any school, let alone a lower division school, that it is impossible...but it happens every year in some of these schools.

  So let me get this right. It's ok for a kid to "move" from WV ie Brankco Busick, and choose to go to Steubenville. But if a kid from Youngstown decides to go to Mooney something illegal must be going on.
  
  I would like to see you back your claim up that Mooney only takes athletes on voucher with some facts. I know you won't, but just once it would be nice.
• sherm03

  

  ManO'War;1063323 wrote:Mooney doesn't need vouchers..they have always handed out so called "financial aid".

  Yes, they do have financial aid. I got a $500/year scholarship based on my grades in grade school. Sure as hell wasn't for my football prowess, considering I didn't crack 5'0" until after my sophomore year of high school. I also got a bunch of need based financial aid from the state.
  

  ManO'War;1063323 wrote:And since I'm a tax payer, I have a real problem with vouchers, since my money is going to a religious institution.

  Since I plan on sending my kids to a private school, I have a real problem with having to pay taxes to the public school that my kids and my family will never use. But you win some and you lose some, I guess. In other words, here's the world's smallest violin for you...
  

  ManO'War;1063323 wrote:Ursuline and Mooney used to be a lot bigger schools...so they are capable of accepting a lot more students, so how come all of these other kids that are trapped in the Youngstown City Schools, you know the none athletes, are not being accepted??

  True, they did used to be a lot bigger schools. I love your line of thinking here. Mooney and Ursuline must be keeping kids out. Their shrinking enrollment has nothing to do with the fact that NE Ohio is bleeding population right now. It has everything to do with Mooney and Ursuline trying to stay in low divisions.
  
  Do you even know how the voucher system works? Schools don't get to hand pick students that have applied for vouchers. If, as a Catholic school, you agree to accept voucher students...you agree to accept ALL voucher students. There is no "this kid is a great athlete, here's your voucher" and "that kid is small and can't hold on to the rock, he's not getting in." Students apply to the state of Ohio to receive the voucher. If the state approves them, they can then go to any private school provided they pass the entrance exam. Since neither Mooney, nor Ursuline, have an entrance exam...that condition does not apply. So basically, if a student in Youngstown wants to, and the state deems their financial situation warrants it, they WILL end up at Mooney or Ursuline.
• skank

  

  genghis dong;1063356 wrote:So let me get this right. It's ok for a kid to "move" from WV ie Brankco Busick, and choose to go to Steubenville. But if a kid from Youngstown decides to go to Mooney something illegal must be going on.
  
  I would like to see you back your claim up that Mooney only takes athletes on voucher with some facts. I know you won't, but just once it would be nice.

  
  
  Can Steubenville provide transportation for a student out of the area? Whether the school OR the parents pay for it?
• Bigdogg

  fish82;1063328 wrote:Of course they don't. Those are state programs. Yet what does any of that have to do with athletic success? At the school my eldest attends, (private) the top hitter on the State Champion VB team spent her Junior and Senior years flirting with expulsion for conduct violations. By the same token, a kid at the local alternative school damn near went to state in Wrestling. Yeah, there might not be "10% on probation," (which is at best an extreme minority situation or more likely a one-off) but if you think there aren't kids just "taking up space" at private schools, then you would be more than a little bit incorrect.
  
  
  
  You act like privates have a monopoly on parental involvement. Every parent in every district in the state has the obligation to be involved in their child's academic success. To try and turn that against them, when public school parents contribute financially in several ways to their kids education is at best disingenuous, and at worst just silly.
  
  
  
  If it was a factor worth any attention whatsoever, then Rosecrans and Roger Bacon would be polishing numerous trophies. The number of private schools who will never sniff a title in any sport pokes a bigazz hole in the "thin the herd" argument.

  Once again you take a complicated issue and only focus on one extreme. Of course thinning the heard has very little effect with the super large schools. If your trying to sell that Youngstown Mooney and Ursuline get no benefits by not having "State specialized education programs" and selective admission then you are a fool.
  
  In the ideal world every student would have two parents who are actively involved in their children's education. It appears you do not live in reality. The public schools are full of students who would rather be somewhere else. As for the school I mentioned with the 10% of the students on probation. It's is a medium size public school in a rural area. St. Marys Memorial. If they have 10% of their students on probation, imagine what a inter city has.
• fish82

  

  Bigdogg;1063840 wrote:Once again you take a complicated issue and only focus on one extreme. Of course thinning the heard has very little effect with the super large schools. If your trying to sell that Youngstown Mooney and Ursuline get no benefits by not having "State specialized education programs" and selective admission then you are a fool.

  I guess you didn't read sherm's post above. Selective admission? If the kid has a voucher from the state, he/she gets in...non-negotiable. They don't even have an admission test at either school. So no, I'm not "selling" anything...just setting you straight.
  

  Bigdogg;1063840 wrote:In the ideal world every student would have two parents who are actively involved in their children's education. It appears you do not live in reality. The public schools are full of students who would rather be somewhere else.

  And there are none of those at private schools. Sure thing. :rolleyes:
  
  The fact remains, public school parents have the exact same option as private school parents to involve themselves at whatever level they see fit. To claim a disadvantage for those who simply choose not to involve themselves is just stupid.
  
  
  Edit: Can you link the article you referenced? I see no hits for Jerry Skiver making any such statement.
• skank

  

  fish82;1063883 wrote:I guess you didn't read sherm's post above. Selective admission? If the kid has a voucher from the state, he/she gets in...non-negotiable. They don't even have an admission test at either school. So no, I'm not "selling" anything...just setting you straight.
  
  
  
  
  
  And there are none of those at private schools. Sure thing. :rolleyes:
  
  The fact remains, public school parents have the exact same option as private school parents to involve themselves at whatever level they see fit. To claim a disadvantage for those who simply choose not to involve themselves is just stupid.
  
  
  Edit: Can you link the article you referenced? I see no hits for Jerry Skiver making any such statement.

  
  
  What happens when the kid starts causing disruptions in class and failing his courses?
• Bigdogg

  skank;1064010 wrote:What happens when the kid starts causing disruptions in class and failing his courses?

  You know that answer, they kick them out. Private schools do not have to take every kid with a voucher. Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is not true. They can choose to set admission standards and conduct standards. Most have a admission review committee to look over applicants.
• Con_Alma

  j_crazy;1062493 wrote:My school district covers about 50 sq miles. Can't recruit. No one who doesn't love in the district wants to commute an hour one way no matter how good the football/basketball is.

  That's about my morning commute to take my daughter to her high School. You sure that no would do that? There are multiple families up here that commute a ridiculous amount to get their kids to a school of their choice.
• Con_Alma

  Bigdogg;1064101 wrote:You know that answer, they kick them out. Private schools do not have to take every kid with a voucher. Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is not true. They can choose to set admission standards and conduct standards. Most have a admission review committee to look over applicants.

  You do realize that if a child is expelled from school even their local public school doesn't have to accept them. Getting "kicked out" is a pretty big deal with significant ramifications.
• Bigdogg

  fish82;1063883 wrote:I guess you didn't read sherm's post above. Selective admission? If the kid has a voucher from the state, he/she gets in...non-negotiable. They don't even have an admission test at either school. So no, I'm not "selling" anything...just setting you straight.
  
  
  
  And there are none of those at private schools. Sure thing. :rolleyes:
  
  The fact remains, public school parents have the exact same option as private school parents to involve themselves at whatever level they see fit. To claim a disadvantage for those who simply choose not to involve themselves is just stupid.
  
  
  Edit: Can you link the article you referenced? I see no hits for Jerry Skiver making any such statement.

  I don't know where you are getting your information but private schools are not required to take all students with vouchers. They may choose to have selected admission standards and a very stiff code of conduct. All have admission committees to review applications. I have one brother who has taught for 20 years and another that is a retired school psycholigist with over 40 years of experence. I will trust they have picked up a few things over the years. This is where I get my information, at lest about the schools in my area.
  
  The paper I got my information from is not on-line. You will just have to trust me on this one or you can call Jerry Skiver at the school at 419-394-4312 and ask him yourself.
• Bigdogg

  Con_Alma;1064122 wrote:You do realize that if a child is expelled from school even their local public school doesn't have to accept them. Getting "kicked out" is a pretty big deal with significant ramifications.

  Sure do, but they also lose the funding, so it is a last resort. Even then, Opportunity school and home tutoring is used so the grad rate is not negativity affected. Don't see the privates doing much of this.
• Con_Alma

  Bigdogg;1064143 wrote:Sure do, but they also lose the funding, so it is a last resort. Even then, Opportunity school and home tutoring is used so the grad rate is not negativity affected. Don't see the privates doing much of this.

  I sure hope the privates wouldn't do it...at least at my kids school.
• Bigdogg

  Con_Alma;1064147 wrote:I sure hope the privates wouldn't do it...at least at my kids school.

  Here is the Lima Central Catholic student handbook. Check out all the ways you can be dismissed from the school. Quite a bit different than a public school.
  
  http://www.lcchs.edu/home/academics/138.html
• Con_Alma

  That's not surprising at all. The greater expectation with regards to conduct is a good thing.
  
  A public school can have high conduct requirements also. If the student is expelled and you loose the apprx $6000 State funding you would still have a better school.
• fish82

  

  Bigdogg;1064216 wrote:Here is the Lima Central Catholic student handbook. Check out all the ways you can be dismissed from the school. Quite a bit different than a public school.
  
  http://www.lcchs.edu/home/academics/138.html

  Which of those reasons in your opinion (or one of your brother's lol) is not legitimate? What's stopping public schools from adopting similar policies?
• sherm03

  

  Bigdogg;1064101 wrote:You know that answer, they kick them out. Private schools do not have to take every kid with a voucher. Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is not true. They can choose to set admission standards and conduct standards. Most have a admission review committee to look over applicants.

  Correct. Private schools do not have to accept every kid with a voucher if the school has admission standards. If the school does not have admission standards...like Mooney and Ursuline...they cannot turn away a student with vouchers.
  
  Once in the school, yes a student can be expelled for violating the rules. Just like they can be expelled for violating the rules at a public school. I find it funny that you point to the public schools not wanting to expel students for fear of losing the money from the state. You do realize that if a student is expelled from a private school...the school loses tuition money/state money via vouchers, right? Why do you think it's an absolute last resort at public schools, but not an absolute last resort at private schools?
• Bigdogg

  sherm03;1064374 wrote:Correct. Private schools do not have to accept every kid with a voucher if the school has admission standards. If the school does not have admission standards...like Mooney and Ursuline...they cannot turn away a student with vouchers.
  
  Once in the school, yes a student can be expelled for violating the rules. Just like they can be expelled for violating the rules at a public school. I find it funny that you point to the public schools not wanting to expel students for fear of losing the money from the state. You do realize that if a student is expelled from a private school...the school loses tuition money/state money via vouchers, right? Why do you think it's an absolute last resort at public schools, but not an absolute last resort at private schools?

  Correct on the admission standards. But still can expel on a lot more strenuous conduct policy. Mooney and Ursuline attract good students for lots of reasons other than sports. Clearly they operate their football programs at a D-1 level. No way in hell should they be classified by the number of students attending.
  
  Very simple, private schools don't want to deal with the problem students, and the do not have to. Public schools have to take everyone and it is a lot harder to expel a student. All the parents have to do is get an attorney. The law makes it almost impossible for public school to permanently expel a student.
• Bigdogg

  fish82;1064231 wrote:Which of those reasons in your opinion (or one of your brother's lol) is not legitimate? What's stopping public schools from adopting similar policies?

  Public law for one, lol
• fish82

  

  Bigdogg;1064392 wrote:Public law for one, lol

  So get some signatures and do another one of your referendum thingys if it's so important, instead of whining about it.
  

  Bigdogg;1064388 wrote:Correct on the admission standards. But still can expel on a lot more strenuous conduct policy. Mooney and Ursuline attract good students for lots of reasons other than sports. Clearly they operate their football programs at a D-1 level. No way in hell should they be classified by the number of students attending.

  LMAO...so just the privates with good programs should be penalized? I assume those that don't "operate on a D1 level" can keep the status quo? Keep digging.
  

  Bigdogg;1064388 wrote:Very simple, private schools don't want to deal with the problem students, and the do not have to.

  And you have this on who's authority? I'd hate to think you're just generalizing again.
  

  Bigdogg;1064388 wrote: Public schools have to take everyone and it is a lot harder to expel a student. All the parents have to do is get an attorney. The law makes it almost impossible for public school to permanently expel a student.

  1. No, they don't. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, if a kid is expelled from private school, the public is under no obligation to admit them.
  
  B. Horsecrap. My local HS has had 6 kids given the boot already this year. I know of zero cases of any parents here in the past 4 years successfully challenging an expulsion.