Is it time for private schools to have theyre own playoffs in football
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skankAl Bundy;1001493[U wrote:]They lost to better teams[/U]. I can create a list of private schools that have losing records vs. public schools over that time period. All that we are showing is that wins are not evenly distributed in competitive sports. If they were evenly distributed, everyone would go 5-5 every year.
Exactly. -
skankGoChiefs;1001500 wrote:Well of course I'd feel included idiot, because I'm a mod. So you admit you're just a public school whiner then? Carry on.
And you admit that you're a terrible mod. Guess we're even. -
GoChiefsThinthickbigred;1001303 wrote:and what % of schools are private? Who is the math genius ? Oh my bad some dude with a big mouth who never even suited up before but played alot of Atari football so I guess that makes you an expert .. LOL Dont bother responding i wont be listening LOL
I'm 30 stupid. It was Nintendo. Maybe you should have spent a little less time on the practice field and a little more in the classroom. -
Al Bundy
I'm glad we agree that all we have done is show that wins aren't evenly distributed in sports.skank;1001508 wrote:Exactly. -
sherm03
I don't even think YOU know what you are arguing anymore skank. You're just throwing stuff at the wall hoping it sticks.skank;1001508 wrote:Exactly.
You agree that those schools listed just lost to better teams. So your whole argument this is that it isn't fair that the better teams are playing in the same playoffs?!
Come on, man. You're struggling here. -
Al Bundy
Bo Jackson must have been Catholic in Tecmo Superbowl.GoChiefs;1001521 wrote:I'm 30 stupid. It was Nintendo. Maybe you should have spent a little less time on the practice field and a little more in the classroom. -
GoChiefsskank;1001511 wrote:And you admit that you're a terrible mod. Guess we're even.
I've already showed where you have no merit on your moderating claims and are just crying like a 3 year old. Move along. -
skanksherm03;1001525 wrote:I don't even think YOU know what you are arguing anymore skank. You're just throwing stuff at the wall hoping it sticks.
You agree that those schools listed just lost to better teams. So your whole argument this is that it isn't fair that the better teams are playing in the same playoffs?!
Come on, man. You're struggling here.
No dumbass, I admitted they were better teams, I didn't add WHY they were better....Didn't think I had to, we all know why. -
Al Bundy
Probably because they scored more points. Pretty much the same way that Glenoak, Steubenville, and McKinley showed that they were better teams than Massillon.skank;1001539 wrote:No dumbass, I admitted they were better teams, I didn't add WHY they were better....Didn't think I had to, we all know why. -
Con_Alma
I asked several simple questions of you and you chose not to respond. ??? Why is that? Maybe calling someone a name is better than no response at all because at least it's a response. I don't know anymore.skank;1001478 wrote:You resort to namecalling when I ask a simple question....And I'M laughable? -
ThinthickbigredI know one thing everywhere you go everbody is always talking about how the catholic schools recruit . We are not in the minority . We may be on this thread but not overall .. Ive been to several games from Pittsburgh Central catholic ,to Ursulin and Mooney against other teams than the Big Red and I hear it alot everybody bitches about these illegaL UNIVERSITIES .. wE JUST NEED THE ohsaa TO STEP IN AND DO SOMETHING .
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Con_AlmaOf course private schools recruit. They wouldn't have any students if they didn't. They OHSAA isn't going to do anything significant to alter the way HS teams compete against each other.
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skank[h=1]Here is an article from just last year, I took the liberty of highlighting some arguing points. Enjoy
Bob Dyer: OHSAA's proposed playbook complex, incomplete[/h]By Bob Dyer
Beacon Journal columnist
Published: January 9, 2011 - 02:30 AM Bob Dyer: OHSAA's proposed playbook complex, incomplete June 18,2011 03:51 PM GMT Bob Dyer Beacon Journal Publishing Co. Copyright � 2011 Beacon Journal Publishing Co. Inc and Black Press. All Rights Reserved. Any copying, redistribution or retransmission of any of the contents of this service without the express written consent of the Akron Beacon Journal is expressly prohibited. Leave it to the Ohio High School Athletic Association to come up with a simple solution to the problem of unfair competition between public and private schools.
The OHSAA wants to start with the BADM . . . subtract the SF . . . add the BF . . . add the TF . . . and then apply the FAC.
You think I'm kidding?
I'll tell you what all those acronyms mean in a minute. For now, suffice it to say that a committee charged with developing a statewide referendum to address the public-private issue seems to be reinforcing the concept that designing things by committee isn't necessarily a great idea.
A draft copy of the group's ''Competitive Balance Proposal,'' provided to me by a person involved, shows the OHSAA will pitch a solution that mixes three factors to determine which schools will play in which divisions: socioeconomics, geographic reach and athletic tradition.
As we have reported extensively during the past several years, private schools enjoy an enormous competitive advantage over public schools. Although only 8 percent of the state's high school students attend private schools, those schools account for 70 percent of the 20 schools with the most state championships.
During the fall sports season, counting all of the boys and girls divisions in all six sports, 19 of the 27 statewide winners were private. That's 70 percent of the trophies collected by 8 percent of the students.
In the Division VI football title game, a private school with five previous championships sneaked past the state's best small public school by a score of 77-6.
Yes, 77-6. In the state final.
The reasons for the disproportionate
success rate are many, but the primary one is that private schools can assemble virtual all-star teams from five- and six-county areas, while public schools generally must make do with whoever happens to live in or near their district.
The reasons this happens are less important than the fact it happens. Clearly, given the OHSAA's stated mission to ''administer interscholastic athletic competition in a fair and equitable manner,'' the OHSAA has not been doing its job.
That's why an ever-growing percentage of public school coaches and administrators has been clamoring for change.
Last year, a dozen Wayne County superintendents announced the results of a statewide poll of their peers that showed three out of four Ohio superintendents want to revamp the playoff system.
Given that mandate for change, the next question becomes more difficult: What's the fairest way to make things more fair?
Complex formula
In some states, public and private schools play each other during the regular season but are split into separate divisions during the playoffs. That makes perfect sense, because it eliminates apples-and-oranges tournaments.
A half-dozen other states use an enrollment ''multiplier'' that forces smaller private schools into bigger divisions. In Illinois, for example, if you have 200 boys in your private school, you must multiply that by 1.65, giving you an enrollment of 330 for the purpose of determining your playoff division.
If you think that complicates matters, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.
The nascent OHSAA proposal — to be voted on by member schools and, if passed, implemented for the 2012-13 or 2013-14 school year — looks like something from an algebra class.
You start with a school's Beginning Average Daily Membership, a fancy way of saying ''student enrollment.'' Then you subtract the Socioeconomic Factor, which the committee says has a major impact on sports success. The SF is determined by using state data about free lunches provided at each school.
Then, the OHSAA would add a ''Boundary Factor,'' a measure of how easily schools can draw students from outside their immediate area. The BF weighting would come in four categories, from heaviest to lightest:
• Private schools with no restrictions.
• Private schools that limit students to certain boundaries.
• Public schools with statewide open enrollment.
• Public schools that limit open enrollment to contiguous districts.
Finally, the OHSAA would calculate the ''Tradition Factor,'' an acknowledgment that good athletes often go out of their way to attend schools with championship traditions.
The TF would be calculated over a four-year period, on a sport-by-sport basis, in the following way, from highest to lowest importance:
• State championship game appearances.
• State tournament appearances.
• Regional finals appearances.
Mix all of these factors together and you get the ''Final Athletic Count.''
Problems remain
The OHSAA committee was made up of 30 representatives from both public and private schools across the state.
Now, let's give the group major kudos for trying to fix the problem. But in attempting to make changes that are palatable to every conceivable interest group, the plan ignores some of the worst inequities.
Many of the most uneven playing fields exist in Division I. And if a school is already in the highest division, no formula on Earth will push it any higher.
How bad is the imbalance in our state's biggest division? Private schools have won seven of the past 10 titles in football . . . 12 of the past 13 in volleyball . . . 11 of 12 in field hockey . . . four of seven in boys soccer . . . and five of seven in girls soccer.
You can add as many factors to the formula as you want, and places like Lakewood St. Edward and Cleveland St. Ignatius are going to continue to be equated with schools like Twinsburg and Green.
In addition, a school would not be forced to jump more than one division. So if you take the semipro football program at Youngstown Ursuline and move it from D-V to D-IV — pitting it against schools such as Manchester, Orrville and Garrettsville — what have you accomplished?
Geography question
The committee certainly deserves credit for creativity. Introducing a socioeconomic factor is unheard of.
Is socioeconomics a significant factor in athletic success? In sports like golf and baseball, certainly. In most sports? Probably. In track and boys basketball? Not so much.
Geographic reach remains the key. But rather than simply examining each school's general policy, you'd have to see what percentage of its athletes come from far-flung areas.
The assertion made by some parochial schools that open enrollment has nullified the private-school geographic advantage is laughable. With precious few exceptions (Glenville football and Buchtel basketball come to mind), the trickle of open-enrollment athletes at mainstream public schools pales in comparison.
While acknowledging that several states have always split their tournaments and at least five other states have a system that involves a partial split, the committee's draft proclaims, ''No state association in modern history has separated its tournaments into public-only and private-only.''
So what? Ohioans don't have the guts to do the right thing on their own?
Pitting the parochial powerhouse Delphos St. John's against 198-student Shadyside High in the state football final was like lining up the Ohio State Buckeyes across from the Ohio Wesleyan Battling Bishops.
The outcome is predetermined, because the two programs are completely different.
Different types of programs should compete in different tournaments — just as OSU and OWU do. -
Al Bundy
Everyone complains about Big Red recruiting too. People like to take shots at successful programs even if there isn't any evidence that a rule was broken. Just because people are jealous of successful programs, it doesn't mean that they cheat. By the way, did you find any good recruits for Big Red in Pittsburgh?Thinthickbigred;1001564 wrote:I know one thing everywhere you go everbody is always talking about how the catholic schools recruit . We are not in the minority . We may be on this thread but not overall .. Ive been to several games from Pittsburgh Central catholic ,to Ursulin and Mooney against other teams than the Big Red and I hear it alot everybody bitches about these illegaL UNIVERSITIES .. wE JUST NEED THE ohsaa TO STEP IN AND DO SOMETHING . -
Thinthickbigred
Isnt Mogadore in Stark county? or is it just outside? anyway they are part of the Canton / Massillon metro area and they like Glen Oak, North Canton Hoover, Louisville,Louisville St Thomas Aquinas,Canrton Central,McKinley,Uniointown Lake,Jackson,Perry the list goes on and on and on . Stark county has an outstanding public school football area. If Massillon was Mooney Your Mogadore would maybe only have one state title and those other schools would not be near as successful as they are . public school people who stick up for these illegal activities from Mooney and Ursulin are part of the problemlandshark0731;1001418 wrote:Oh Mr. Stank ! They don't have to,They have an actual State championship trophy,I mean four Trophies,my bad! -
skankAl Bundy;1001556 wrote:Probably because they scored more points. Pretty much the same way that Glenoak, Steubenville, and McKinley showed that they were better teams than Massillon.
Ok, I can play this game too, why did they score more points. -
Thinthickbigred
They have a pipline to PCC according to several McKeesport and Woodland Hills peopleAl Bundy;1001586 wrote:Everyone complains about Big Red recruiting too. People like to take shots at successful programs even if there isn't any evidence that a rule was broken. Just because people are jealous of successful programs, it doesn't mean that they cheat. By the way, did you find any good recruits for Big Red in Pittsburgh? -
skankCon_Alma;1001561 wrote:I asked several simple questions of you and you chose not to respond. ??? Why is that? Maybe calling someone a name is better than no response at all because at least it's a response. I don't know anymore.
Those were soft ball questions, and any answer I gave, NO MATTER WHAT, you were going to try and hit em out of the park. -
ThinthickbigredWent to Boardman ,Mooney game a few years ago and it was interesting to hear the hatred towards Mooney for stealing.. Eating in Chi Chi's before the game and watching the game and listening to all the complaints
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Con_AlmaSkank...that's a nice article and opinion but it doesn't matter if the voters don't want the impact proposed.
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landshark0731Thinthickbigred;1001593 wrote:Isnt Mogadore in Stark county? or is it just outside? anyway they are part of the Canton / Massillon metro area and they like Glen Oak, North Canton Hoover, Louisville,Louisville St Thomas Aquinas,Canrton Central,McKinley,Uniointown Lake,Jackson,Perry the list goes on and on and on . Stark county has an outstanding public school football area. If Massillon was Mooney Your Mogadore would maybe only have one state title and those other schools would not be near as successful as they are . public school people who stick up for these illegal activities from Mooney and Ursulin are part of the problem
actually they are outside of akron located in summit county -
skankAt least read the highlighted portions....Hmm, looks like Bob Dyer is a #$$&*!* too.
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Al Bundy
They probably scored more points because Massillon sucked this year.skank;1001594 wrote:Ok, I can play this game too, why did they score more points. -
Con_Alma
As were some of yours but I still answered them. Were you not trying to "hit them out of the park"??skank;1001605 wrote:Those were soft ball questions, and any answer I gave, NO MATTER WHAT, you were going to try and hit em out of the park.
Should I not try and do that?
Was, "Can we continue our discussion" a softball question?" -
Con_Alma
How can you tell such a thing? I can't tell based on his article. He might be but that article doesn't give any indication that he is.skank;1001619 wrote:At least read the highlighted portions....Hmm, looks like Bob Dyer is a #$$&*!* too.