Steubenville question

• pooter

  icskins;494505 wrote:Ok, I have a follow up question. Again, I do not mean this in a negative toward any school. I am just using Steubenville as an example because I saw their schedule. The OVAC has a rule that a school has to play a certain number of schools in order to qualify for the conference championship. Should the State have a similar requirement? Should a team have to play, maybe over half of their games against teams in their State in order to qualify for the playoffs?
  
  I know that the OVAC is not the best thing to use as a comparison. I, personally, have never been a fan of the way points are awarded for playing out of state schools. I think that either way it goes it is unfair. You either get too many points or too few.
  
  Anybody have any thoughts? Again, please do not take this as an attack on any school.

  Absolutely NOT!!! Big Red is my second favorite team in the Valley, but they can't get their Locals to play them.... I know somebody from up north will say schedule this team or that team.... They also blame Big Red for recruiting the way they do or something like that... Let's say this is somewhat true... Look where Big Red Pulls from, a small town with about 10,000 people and smaller communities around them.... They on the other hand have YTOWN and ALL the smaller communities around it.... Who has the Bigger drawing area??? This is what cracks me up from a lot of posters on these sites, they don't take that into consideration... Anyhow that being said, it's a lot harder for Big Red to schedule up compared to teams up north. Now with that being said, Big Red falls back into the same category with in state teams as they do valley teams... I'm sure Big Red would LOVE to play 5-7 valley teams per year and still have the room to bring in better competition... Remember, I'm not from Big Red BUT I don't have BLINDERS on like most....
• Thinthickbigred

  icskins;494505 wrote:Ok, I have a follow up question. Again, I do not mean this in a negative toward any school. I am just using Steubenville as an example because I saw their schedule. The OVAC has a rule that a school has to play a certain number of schools in order to qualify for the conference championship. Should the State have a similar requirement? Should a team have to play, maybe over half of their games against teams in their State in order to qualify for the playoffs?
  
  I know that the OVAC is not the best thing to use as a comparison. I, personally, have never been a fan of the way points are awarded for playing out of state schools. I think that either way it goes it is unfair. You either get too many points or too few.
  
  Anybody have any thoughts? Again, please do not take this as an attack on any school.

  
  Let me ask you a question . Do you think the state should impliment a policy saying a team has to pla X amount of Ohio teams? Fair question .
• Thinthickbigred

  It sounds to me icskins that you are leaning towards mandatory scheduling guidlines as to the amount of Ohio teams a Ohio school plays . I dont know why it bothers some people about how many Ohio teams we play . Its not like we are getting away with anything by playing out of state slouches . We are in a very unique situation McKeesport is only an hour drive . Morgantown is a little bit further , Wheeling Park is 20 minutes away DC team is 5 hours Inkster is about 5 hours NY teams are about 5 hours . We play 4 long distance teams this year . I do love it . I really enjoy showcasing our Ohio team to so many other states . Big Red does Ohio proud . We represent our state on the grid and we bring home solid wins against quality out of state opponents. Come playoff time we make more money for the OHSAA than anybody or close to it and that includes D-1 . So I dont think they will try and hurt us .
• Sykotyk

  

  I'm against mandatory scheduling and districting.
  
  As for the OVAC championship. Big Red isn't 'barred' from winning the title because of playing too many out-of-conference teams. They just fail to reach the threshold at which they'll get bonus points for those non-OVAC victories.
  
  As for the OHSAA and a minimum requirement. No. Again, the OHSAA is an association, not a league. They simply setup a point system to earn entry into the state playoffs. No mandatory scheduling. No requirement of who or how many. Just play, record the result, and let the points fall where they may.
  
  Sykotyk
• Thinthickbigred

  Can you imagine the problems that would arise ? Some teams might be only playing 7 and 8 games or just plain not getting credit for out of state foes . It would be like a political party nightmare mess . We dont need politics in HS sports and micro managing things would be disgusting.
• war_admiral

  

  Plus teams that are on the state lines have rivalry's with out of state teams that go back years. e.g. North East Oh Vs North West Pa, North West Oh Vs North East Ind, South West Oh Vs North East Ky and Ohio Valley teams Vs WV teams.
• holdingout

  holdingout;494547 wrote:Why was it a "very below average week"? On the Sports Friday highlights, Don Sloane said it was a nice crowd. But, he was filming from the visiters side. He never once showed the visiters stands, only the home side. Since you don't figure in programs, 50/50, game ball, parking, does that 20k only come from the gate? If you charge 7.00 a ticket, 20k would get you less than 3000 people. Harding Stadium would be over half empty. That's not a good crowd at all for that stadium. When you say "Big Red cleared", do you mean the athletic dept., or the football program? Who pays for the lights? The city, or Steubenville City Schools. I know the officials can be very expensive also. Aren't the concession stands ran by the band boosters?...I'm done rambling...lol

  
  Hey Fairwood, can you try and answer this for me ? Or maybe some other Big Red poster.
• icskins

  war_admiral;495095 wrote:Plus teams that are on the state lines have rivalry's with out of state teams that go back years. e.g. North East Oh Vs North West Pa, North West Oh Vs North East Ind, South West Oh Vs North East Ky and Ohio Valley teams Vs WV teams.

  
  Very true, and I guess in my question, you wouldn't have to play all games against Ohio schools, just the majority. So, say 6 games in state and 4 out of state would be allowed. As I said, I was curious what everyone thought. I am not sure that I like this idea myself. I just do not like the way that Ohio does the points for playing out of state schools.
• icskins

  Thinthickbigred;494584 wrote:It sounds to me icskins that you are leaning towards mandatory scheduling guidlines as to the amount of Ohio teams a Ohio school plays . I dont know why it bothers some people about how many Ohio teams we play . Its not like we are getting away with anything by playing out of state slouches . We are in a very unique situation McKeesport is only an hour drive . Morgantown is a little bit further , Wheeling Park is 20 minutes away DC team is 5 hours Inkster is about 5 hours NY teams are about 5 hours . We play 4 long distance teams this year . I do love it . I really enjoy showcasing our Ohio team to so many other states . Big Red does Ohio proud . We represent our state on the grid and we bring home solid wins against quality out of state opponents. Come playoff time we make more money for the OHSAA than anybody or close to it and that includes D-1 . So I dont think they will try and hurt us .

  
  I do NOT care about your schedule. I might have said that I was just using them as an EXAMPLE about 6 times. I am from Wintersville originally. I try to keep up with the local schools. This is why I noticed Steubenville's schedule. If I was from Toledo, I would have used one of those schools in my example if there was a similar schedule.
• icskins

  Sykotyk;495025 wrote:I'm against mandatory scheduling and districting.
  
  As for the OVAC championship. Big Red isn't 'barred' from winning the title because of playing too many out-of-conference teams. They just fail to reach the threshold at which they'll get bonus points for those non-OVAC victories.
  
  As for the OHSAA and a minimum requirement. No. Again, the OHSAA is an association, not a league. They simply setup a point system to earn entry into the state playoffs. No mandatory scheduling. No requirement of who or how many. Just play, record the result, and let the points fall where they may.
  
  Sykotyk

  
  I know that the OVAC is not the best example to use. I have to be honest, I do not know much about they give points for their championship. I assumed that Steubenville never wins it due to the lack of OVAC schools on their schedule. If that is not the case, then I stand corrected.
• Bigred1995

  

  icskins;495122 wrote:Very true, and I guess in my question, you wouldn't have to play all games against Ohio schools, just the majority. So, say 6 games in state and 4 out of state would be allowed. As I said, I was curious what everyone thought. I am not sure that I like this idea myself. I just do not like the way that Ohio does the points for playing out of state schools.

  Would you please explain to me why you don't like the way OHSAA assigns points for out of state school? It is my understanding that OHSAA assigns points for out of state schools exactly the same for in state schools; all of the points assigned are based on the number of enrolled boys in the school.
  
  I'm willing to bet that you're of the crowd that thinks schools schedule these "weak" out of state Division I schools so they can get the points to make the playoffs. If that is the case then I pose these questions...
  If teams are indeed scheduling weak out of state schools for easy wins then what's the difference between scheduling weak out of state schools and weak in state schools. Does it really matter if a school schedules a Wheeling Park or a Cleveland John Hay?
  Also, if teams were doing this just to get a win and just to make the playoffs, wouldn't their playoff results be pretty much "one & done"?
  
  The only reason people don't like when other teams schedule out of state schools is because for the most part they don't have a point of reference. It's easy when a team plays a John Hay team and beats them for other fans to say, "Yeah, you beat a Div. I school, but they were weak!" but it makes it harder to do that when a team beats an out of state opponent you know very little about other than the Ohio Team that scheduled them is getting a ton of computer points while the weak Ohio team your team schedule isn't giving you as many points as you'd hope!
• Darkon

  

  It does not matter if Big Red plays in or out of state teams. They will still be a top seed in their region.
  I would like them to play more Ohio teams so they would be more of a factor on who else makes the post season in Ohio. As a fan I am always looking at teams schedules and trying to figure out who will get enough points/ wins to make it. If Big Red was on more teams schedules it would make it more interesting. Same with other schools not just Big Red.
• Thinthickbigred

  icskins;495122 wrote:Very true, and I guess in my question, you wouldn't have to play all games against Ohio schools, just the majority. So, say 6 games in state and 4 out of state would be allowed. As I said, I was curious what everyone thought. I am not sure that I like this idea myself. I just do not like the way that Ohio does the points for playing out of state schools.

  Do you know how hard that would be for us? We are blackballed from everybody in the buckeye 8 . and EL let us go a few years ago . We would have to cow towl to one of these confrences and be under somebodies thumb . No thank you
• Thinthickbigred

  icskins;495127 wrote:I do NOT care about your schedule. I might have said that I was just using them as an EXAMPLE about 6 times. I am from Wintersville originally. I try to keep up with the local schools. This is why I noticed Steubenville's schedule. If I was from Toledo, I would have used one of those schools in my example if there was a similar schedule.

  I heard you say EXAMPLE and I know you are a Wintersville person ,and I see that you are not trying to show bias against Steubenville . I see in your previous post that 6 Ohio teams on schedule sounds right to you . I respectfully disagree with you and I think it bothers you that we in fact play so many out of state teams. You must remember this though IC backed out of the last year on their contract at the last minute and put us in a bind. Luckily Inkster was open that week . I dont want to start talking crap about locals but we cant make any of you guys play us . Our problem is unique but I wouldnt change it for the world . If we start sliding and become a mediocre team ,you guys will flock to us like bee's to honey .
• Thinthickbigred

  Darkon;495175 wrote:It does not matter if Big Red plays in or out of state teams. They will still be a top seed in their region.
  I would like them to play more Ohio teams so they would be more of a factor on who else makes the post season in Ohio. As a fan I am always looking at teams schedules and trying to figure out who will get enough points/ wins to make it. If Big Red was on more teams schedules it would make it more interesting. Same with other schools not just Big Red.

  I really enjoy our schedule . We dolay 3 OVAC teams all fromWVA and 2 Ohio teams . I love getting ink in NY ,DC, Michigan, Pttsburgh , Its great . If we pick up Warren which we were supposed to but they retracted thats cool doesnt matter to me one way or the other . I do enjoy the intrigue of the unknown. Parkersburgh is a team I want on .
• Thinthickbigred

  By the end of the year we plan on playing 7 Ohio teams total . That is about the same as most of the buckeye 8 teams play .
• icskins

  Bigred1995;495166 wrote:Would you please explain to me why you don't like the way OHSAA assigns points for out of state school? It is my understanding that OHSAA assigns points for out of state schools exactly the same for in state schools; all of the points assigned are based on the number of enrolled boys in the school.
  
  I'm willing to bet that you're of the crowd that thinks schools schedule these "weak" out of state Division I schools so they can get the points to make the playoffs. If that is the case then I pose these questions...
  If teams are indeed scheduling weak out of state schools for easy wins then what's the difference between scheduling weak out of state schools and weak in state schools. Does it really matter if a school schedules a Wheeling Park or a Cleveland John Hay?
  Also, if teams were doing this just to get a win and just to make the playoffs, wouldn't their playoff results be pretty much "one & done"?
  
  The only reason people don't like when other teams schedule out of state schools is because for the most part they don't have a point of reference. It's easy when a team plays a John Hay team and beats them for other fans to say, "Yeah, you beat a Div. I school, but they were weak!" but it makes it harder to do that when a team beats an out of state opponent you know very little about other than the Ohio Team that scheduled them is getting a ton of computer points while the weak Ohio team your team schedule isn't giving you as many points as you'd hope!

  
  You would lose that bet.
  
  Maybe I am not understanding the way points are given for out of state then. Here is the way I understand it. I will use some teams for example again. Steubenville plays Wheeling Park. Wheeling Park counts as a Division 1 school for Ohio. So they get the points for beating a Division 1 school. That is fine. The problem, from my point of view, is what comes next. Wheeling Park beats Indian Creek, a division 3 school. However, because Wheeling Park is out state, it counts as them beating a division 1 school. So the level of points recevied is, or can be, dramatically higher for playing an out state team rather than an in state team with a diverse schedule.
  
  Now the same works in reverse. If you play an out of state team that would be Division 6 in Ohio, no matter who they beat, you only get division 6 points.
  
  I am not sure what the fix would be. Obviously, the easy answer is for someone to sit there and figure out the enrollment of every out state team in the country so that it would be reflected accurately. That is just not feasible though.
• icskins

  Thinthickbigred;495185 wrote:I heard you say EXAMPLE and I know you are a Wintersville person ,and I see that you are not trying to show bias against Steubenville . I see in your previous post that 6 Ohio teams on schedule sounds right to you . I respectfully disagree with you and I think it bothers you that we in fact play so many out of state teams. You must remember this though IC backed out of the last year on their contract at the last minute and put us in a bind. Luckily Inkster was open that week . I dont want to start talking crap about locals but we cant make any of you guys play us . Our problem is unique but I wouldnt change it for the world . If we start sliding and become a mediocre team ,you guys will flock to us like bee's to honey .

  
  I really do not care what your schedule is. I know that some of you guys don't believe me, but so be it. If you played all 10 games against local teams, I would still have to say that you are the favorite going into the playoffs.
  
  I just figured that this was a football forum and I thought this might be an interesting topic.
• Bigred1995

  

  icskins;495229 wrote:You would lose that bet.
  
  Maybe I am not understanding the way points are given for out of state then. Here is the way I understand it. I will use some teams for example again. Steubenville plays Wheeling Park. Wheeling Park counts as a Division 1 school for Ohio. So they get the points for beating a Division 1 school. That is fine. The problem, from my point of view, is what comes next. Wheeling Park beats Indian Creek, a division 3 school. However, because Wheeling Park is out state, it counts as them beating a division 1 school. So the level of points recevied is, or can be, dramatically higher for playing an out state team rather than an in state team with a diverse schedule.
  
  Now the same works in reverse. If you play an out of state team that would be Division 6 in Ohio, no matter who they beat, you only get division 6 points.
  
  I am not sure what the fix would be. Obviously, the easy answer is for someone to sit there and figure out the enrollment of every out state team in the country so that it would be reflected accurately. That is just not feasible though.

  Actually, that's not exactly how it's done. If Wheeling Park would play Indian Creek and win then Big Red would only receive Div. III points. Now if they played an out of state div. III sized school, then yes we'd still receive Div. I points. The issue is, as you stated, figuring out enrollment for every team that out of state team plays (that's not an Ohio team), but also as you stated, the opposite is also true, so if Big Red beats a lower division out of state school, lets say a Div V, and that school goes and beats a Div. I level out of state school, then Big Red would still only get the Div. V points.
  
  The thing is, the ability to schedule these out of state schools is open for any school in Ohio. Hell, if any one in the Valley would like to schedule Inkster next year I'm willing to bet they'd be more than happy to come down and play them! I'm sure they have opening in their schedule as they have a hard time finding games! I mean if you're looking for an "easy" out of state school!:rolleyes:
• icskins

  Bigred1995;495261 wrote:Actually, that's not exactly how it's done. If Wheeling Park would play Indian Creek and win then Big Red would only receive Div. III points. Now if they played an out of state div. III sized school, then yes we'd still receive Div. I points. The issue is, as you stated, figuring out enrollment for every team that out of state team plays (that's not an Ohio team), but also as you stated, the opposite is also true, so if Big Red beats a lower division out of state school, lets say a Div V, and that school goes and beats a Div. I level out of state school, then Big Red would still only get the Div. V points.
  
  The thing is, the ability to schedule these out of state schools is open for any school in Ohio. Hell, if any one in the Valley would like to schedule Inkster next year I'm willing to bet they'd be more than happy to come down and play them! I'm sure they have opening in their schedule as they have a hard time finding games! I mean if you're looking for an "easy" out of state school!:rolleyes:

  
  Are you sure about the points? I could have sworn that all wins by an out of state school were based on that schools size regardless of whether they play an Ohio school or not. Again, I could be wrong.
  
  Please show me where I said any of these schools were "easy". I think I went out of my to say that I was not questioning strength of schedule or anything. That is the problem with asking anything. Some posters have to take everything as an attack. I have to say, that I am surprised there hasn't been more of this with this thread.
• Bigred1995

  

  icskins;495273 wrote:Are you sure about the points? I could have sworn that all wins by an out of state school were based on that schools size regardless of whether they play an Ohio school or not. Again, I could be wrong.
  
  Please show me where I said any of these schools were "easy". I think I went out of my to say that I was not questioning strength of schedule or anything. That is the problem with asking anything. Some posters have to take everything as an attack. I have to say, that I am surprised there hasn't been more of this with this thread.

  I am pretty sure about the points. Maybe someone more "in the know" can chime in, but the points for in state school are already in "the formula" so to edit it just because they're playing an out of state school wouldn't make sense.
  
  The "easy" comment wasn't directed at you, but to the plethora of Valley fans that think the teams Big Red bring in are easy. I was merely informing those that Inkster is always in need of games and it's obvious they're willing to travel. They made three trips to Ohio last year!
• Thinthickbigred

  icskins;495229 wrote:You would lose that bet.
  
  Maybe I am not understanding the way points are given for out of state then. Here is the way I understand it. I will use some teams for example again. Steubenville plays Wheeling Park. Wheeling Park counts as a Division 1 school for Ohio. So they get the points for beating a Division 1 school. That is fine. The problem, from my point of view, is what comes next. Wheeling Park beats Indian Creek, a division 3 school. However, because Wheeling Park is out state, it counts as them beating a division 1 school. So the level of points recevied is, or can be, dramatically higher for playing an out state team rather than an in state team with a diverse schedule.
  
  Now the same works in reverse. If you play an out of state team that would be Division 6 in Ohio, no matter who they beat, you only get division 6 points.
  
  I am not sure what the fix would be. Obviously, the easy answer is for someone to sit there and figure out the enrollment of every out state team in the country so that it would be reflected accurately. That is just not feasible though.

  How would Wheeling Park beating IC count as secondary D-1 points for Steubenville? There is no way it works like that . I mean school enrollment is public knowledge. Why in the world would the OHSAA have an OVAC type point system ?
• Thinthickbigred

  See the true crux of this conversation is slowly coming out. There is no problem with the point system. and most of the time when Ohio teams play out of state teams they are juggernauts not bums. Check out Cincy Moeller and Elder and St X and Collerain . They all pplay top teams from Indiana and Kentucky and throw in a florida or texas team . I dont think there is a problem at all with the scheduling of out of state teams . You are always going to have people who if they could make it more difficult for Steubenville at any turn they would do so that is it in a nutshell.
• icskins

  Thinthickbigred;495322 wrote:How would Wheeling Park beating IC count as secondary D-1 points for Steubenville? There is no way it works like that . I mean school enrollment is public knowledge. Why in the world would the OHSAA have an OVAC type point system ?

  
  The way the OHSAA website reads is pretty confusing. Look at page 2 - 5.3
  
  http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/ftrglt.pdf
• icskins

  Thinthickbigred;495334 wrote:See the true crux of this conversation is slowly coming out. There is no problem with the point system. and most of the time when Ohio teams play out of state teams they are juggernauts not bums. Check out Cincy Moeller and Elder and St X and Collerain . They all pplay top teams from Indiana and Kentucky and throw in a florida or texas team . I dont think there is a problem at all with the scheduling of out of state teams . You are always going to have people who if they could make it more difficult for Steubenville at any turn they would do so that is it in a nutshell.

  
  Where in the heck are getting this from? What true "crux" is coming out? How am I trying to make it more difficult for Steubenville?
  
  Everyone is playing by the same rules. I have no problem with that. All I am saying is that the rules are slanted when it comes to out of state teams. This could be good or bad, depending on the size of the out of state school.
  
  I should have come up with a different title to the thread and then just used Steubenville in my example. This really wasn't a question about them. It just jumped out at me when I saw their whole schedule.