Public vs. Private

• oozwaj

  How can you not say open enrollment allows for almost the same school changing oppurtunities as the Privates do? You don't like the football program you are in, change to another one. FREE. You don't even need to pay the private school tuition.
  
  Here is the list of schools that allow open enrollment in Cuyahoga county:
  Bay Village City
  Beachwood City
  Bedford City
  Berea City
  Brecksville-Broadview Hts. City
  Brooklyn City
  Chagrin Falls Ex. Village
  Cleveland City
  Cleveland -University Hts. City
  Cuyahoga Heights Local
  Cuyahoga Valley JVS
  East Cleveland City
  Euclid City
  Fairview Park City
  Garfield Heights City
  Independence Local
  Lakewood City
  Maple Hts. City
  Mayfield City
  North Olmsted City
  North Royalton City
  Olmsted Falls City
  Orange City
  Parma City
  Polaris JVS
  Richmond Heights Local
  Rocky River City
  Shaker Heights City
  Solon City
  South Euclid-Lyndhurst City
  Strongsville City
  Warrensville Heights City
  Westlake City
  
  And if you live in smaller communites, your area of school choices can easily be a 30+ mile diameter.
• oozwaj

  Ok I may have found the issue here.
  
  Looking at the state list of schools that allow some form of open enrollment....... 77% of schools statewide allow some form of open enrollment. Only 23% statewide do not.
  
  But looking at the ones that don't. They are all the large city suburbs of Cleveland, Columbus, Toledo and Cinci primarily. I never realized that. Any guess why that would be?
  
  Maybe that would help even the field for the large metropolitan area schools who feel slighted? If everyone state wide was allowed the same opportunity.
  Just a thought.
  
  Many of the smaller communities that allow open enrollment generally have an area 30+ miles in diameter to pull from, just with open enrollment with other adjoining school districts.
  
  Here is the link:
  http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/DocumentManagement/DocumentDownload.aspx?DocumentID=86584
• Paladin

  Years ago, I would have never been for changes in the system. Parochials in particular usually field teams that came from the town they were in. Competition was competitve but not overwhelming . The kids were Catholic, so no one could charge they were there for any reason but to get a religious education. But they were SELECTIVE. The expense usually kept the students to mostly from families with money.
  
  Fast forward -- public schools are forced to bus kids into the private schools in many areas. "Scholarships" are raised by the privates for "needy" kids( especially the 6'5, 250 or 4.4/40 ones). Kids come from multiple communities ( or states) and in many instances are the BEST athlete from their community to go to another city for a "private" education ( which includes athletics). By best athlete, I mean the player in question gets a D-I scholly, something that none of his friends from the town he leaves gets. They simply aren't the same ability -wise. Add 5-10 of these types of players from 5-10 other communities ( or states) and it quickly escalates the talent level at the "poor" private school. Many publics have rebeled because playing these private schools in Jr. High has lead to the players being "scouted" for the best talent and "helped" in making a transfer to the private school. Thus the Jr. High games are cancelled to stop this. Next, the influx of superior talent coming in from multiple communities ( or states) cause a gap in the competitve level between the public - privates and games cease being a level playing field. So, the publics stop scheduling the privates ( thats where we are now) but must continue to play them in playoffs. Something has to give. You can't have a few being rewarded by the system that makes it non-comptitive for the vast majority.
• queencitybuckeye

  skank;457099 wrote:Yeah, 50%, ain't bad is it? until you wake up and realize that this means the OTHER 50% were won by private schools. Now, try to realize that in Div I, there are 113 public schools, and only 7 privates.
  
  Go back and read the series of articles in the Cleveland PD about private school coaches and some of the things they do and see what you have to say then. And as far as your smart way of talking about excuses and opportunity, all anybody ever wants is a fair fight.

  
  The problem isn't the seven, it's that no more than a handful of the 113 are competitive.
• oozwaj

  Paladin;457180 wrote:Years ago, I would have never been for changes in the system. Parochials in particular usually field teams that came from the town they were in. Competition was competitve but not overwhelming . The kids were Catholic, so no one could charge they were there for any reason but to get a religious education. But they were SELECTIVE. The expense usually kept the students to mostly from families with money.
  
  Fast forward -- public schools are forced to bus kids into the private schools in many areas. "Scholarships" are raised by the privates for "needy" kids( especially the 6'5, 250 or 4.4/40 ones). Kids come from multiple communities ( or states) and in many instances are the BEST athlete from their community to go to another city for a "private" education ( which includes athletics). By best athlete, I mean the player in question gets a D-I scholly, something that none of his friends from the town he leaves gets. They simply aren't the same ability -wise. Add 5-10 of these types of players from 5-10 other communities ( or states) and it quickly escalates the talent level at the "poor" private school. Many publics have rebeled because playing these private schools in Jr. High has lead to the players being "scouted" for the best talent and "helped" in making a transfer to the private school. Thus the Jr. High games are cancelled to stop this. Next, the influx of superior talent coming in from multiple communities ( or states) cause a gap in the competitve level between the public - privates and games cease being a level playing field. So, the publics stop scheduling the privates ( thats where we are now) but must continue to play them in playoffs. Something has to give. You can't have a few being rewarded by the system that makes it non-comptitive for the vast majority.

  You are stereotyping all the private schools based on what the vast minority of only the largest private schools do. I would say that 90% of the state's private schools do not recruit in any way shape or form. And that 90% of these same schools have student players who do go there for religious/academic reasons. And that these same student players also attended the same school from elementary.
  
  Examples: Delphos St John's, Newark Catholic, Elyria Catholic, CVCA, Norwalk St Paul's
  
  Where playing for your school is a privilege and an honor and they all know none of them are getting a Div 1 college scholarship.
• Paladin

  No stereotypes. Based on schools in Youngstown, Cleveland, Cincy, Dayton, Columbus, etc that AREN't D-I, but I'm not excusing them either.
  
  Fact -- public schools are not scheduling parochials in Jr. Hi because thats where the scouting & comparasions begin that lead to "assisting" with a transfer. So most of those games are no longer played.
  
  Fact -- most public schools no longer schedule parochials which forces those teams to play out of state or come up short with 9 game schedules. Happens often. Even the smaller parochials can't get games with bigger schools because of the talent diffence.
  
  Fact -- both parochials in Youngstown ( small division schools) get players from 5-10 different communities and out of state at times.
  
  Fact -- the best athlete from those other communities ( 5-10 or other states) go to smaller division parochials. Youngstown is classic.
  
  No stereotype. REAL. Coaches & ADs are taking into their hands to control what the OHSAA won't or can't. And the numbers don't lie. The system is seriously flawed. I never would have said that decades ago.
• Paladin

  This is also leading to where publics refuse to play parochials, forcing them to play a schedule of other parochials and out of state teams or end up with 9 game or shorter seasons.Often this means playing other out of state parochials. This will continue because the coaches/ ADs have had enough. All thats left now is what to do about the playoffs. The answer will probably be coming soon, as its well past due.
  
  While a few public/parochial leagues remain, most have been broken up over the years because of the growing disparity between them. Competitive balance has lead to many of the public schools to leaving those leagues to form new ones absent the parochials.
  
  The shame belongs on the "administrators" in the OHSAA that fail to see or act while the carnage continues. Regular schedules and league alignments have been addressed. All that remains is the playoffs. That isn't far off.
• believer

  

  ^^^Paladin,
  
  I can't believe this but you and I agree on something! lol
• ijustwanttopost

  The things that get me is the overall "blanket" that is being put on each group, whether you're talking about public or private schools. Until the end of time, there is always going to be people that try and cheat the system by trying to "recruit." This is true whether you're public or private. Is it easier to take advantage of the RULES at a private school? In general, absolutely. However, getting students into the building is a little bit more difficult. So before anyone groups the private schools in to one, you should really look a little more closely at the facts of an average private or parochial school. Paladin, while there are some private school's that can afford to give "scholarships" for "needy" kids as you say, this is absolutely not the case for a majority of the schools. Think about it, these schools recieve VERY little funding from the government, yes they do receive money and yes they are tax exempt but think about the amount of money it cost to maintain each student. I know you're thinking they shouldn't receive any government money and they're lucky for what they've got and I think you are exactly right. However, that still doesn't answer the problem on how to pay for everything. What's my point? It's highly unlikely that a MAJORITY of the parochial schools would be able to hand out scholarships left and right and still be able to staff teachers, buy text books, and building repairs, etc. etc. and still be financially stable. You are seeing many schools suffer from this already and are closing. Also, just to throw another wrench into the mix, Gov. Strickland takes away hundreds of thousands of dollars away from private schools at the end of July of 2009. That's got to mess up your budget a little bit, right? Where am I going with this? ABSOLUTELY NO, and i'll emphasize that again, NO private school will turn down a student. That's an $8,000+ a year for a Columbus Parochial (Hartley, Ready, DeSales, St. Chucks, Watt). Don't get me wrong, very special needs students will get turned away (down syndrome students, blind, etc.) but this is NOT because they don't want them for a count in their numbers, it's because they don't have the resources to help these children. You will see a decent amount of students not asked to come back if they start to become a problem socially or even academically.
  Speaking on what I know about the Columbus Parochials, they are a little different and maybe this would be the way to go...
  Unlike the Catholic schools in Cincinnati and Cleveland, the Columbus Parochials are ran by the Diocese of Columbus. Schools in the NE and SW part of the state are ran by different sects of the Catholic Church (Jesuits, Dominicans, etc.) What this means is that they are independently run and have no boundries. Because the Diocese of Columbus runs the Columbus Catholics, they have set boundries. A student that lives in Reynoldsburg will not be able to attend St. Francis DeSales. Although these schools do have boundaries among themselves, their boundaries are, in fact, larger than the neighborhoods in the surrounding schools. Again, if people could maybe consider the fact that it's not possible financially for these schools to give scholarships left and right, than they might see how it could be difficult to get some parents to pay an $8,000 tution especially in these times.
  
  I know I'm rambling on, but I might root for a specific hs team or such but I root for Ohio all over. You could argue what states field the best sports but I'll argue with anyone from anywhere that we have the best football, basketball, wrestling, etc. Why am I bringing this up? I have numerous friends that I've had that have lived in Ohio and experienced Ohio High School sports and moved to states that had privates and publics together and then seperated them in the future. They all continually have commented at the quality of competition. Not only has the quality stopped gaining but it has regressed. I would hate to see that happen in my home state.
  
  Seperate divisions is absolutely not the way to go. And neither is a straight up multiplier for private schools. Explain the St. Paris Graham's of Ohio (10 consecutive wrestling team state titles, god knows how many individual titles), the St. Henry's, the Northlands, the Glenvilles, the Iggy's, and the Newark Catholics. Have they all been of accused of recruiting? I'm sure at one point or another. Do I believe they did? I don't think so. The fact is that GOOD PROGRAMS RECRUIT THEMSELVES. Whether it's public or private. They get so established where kids just start saying I want to go there. I want to play for a winner. It's not that far fetched to believe. What do you want these coaches to do? Turn these kids away?
  
  Also, if you want to look at the overall tournament results of private and public schools, it is skewed towards privates as far as percentages go. Think about the day to day things that coaches at public schools deal with. Whether it's parents or lack there of, dealing with behavioral issues with kids etc., you just don't get that at private schools. Ok, every once in a while you get it but no where near the extreme of public schools. Private school administration supports the teachers 100% and they won't let parents run the show as sometimes you see in public schools and worrying about different law suits etc. The discipline and responsibility at most private schools is amazing. Which leads them to get more things done and be more successful. For a lot of public schools, just think about the attendance at practice on a day to day basis. Paladin, I could see how this represents your point of being unfair because of private schools being able to choose what kids they want. The thing I'll say to that is then, your problem is not with the private schools recruiting, the problem is with the quality and effectiveness of the public educational system. Heck, it's been unconstitutionally funded for almost 20 years!
  
  Paladin, I know it seems I was picking on you, didn't mean for it to come out that way. You just had the most recent post.
• Paladin

  Without pointing fingers & naming names, how could a star player transfer to a parochial that came from a family on food stamps & pay the tuition ? "Scholarships" come from Booster clubs who fund raise, not the parochial, but the results are the same -- a star player trasnfers in. Wealthy alumni fund players to come & go to the parochials. This has gotten so common at many schools that no one will schedule local parochials or admit them to the leagues. In fact, two area leagues who couldn't resolve the problems simply started dropping out leaving only the parochials(s) and re-organizing into two new leagues. The Mahoning Valley League totally disbanded leaving only Warren JFK and a public school deemed( suspected of recruiting) as the only ones left. The Steel Valley had ALL D-I schools ( Boardman, Fitch , Warren Harding) leave the two smaller Youngstown parochial schools. Look around the state at leagues & how they changed. Notice anything familiar? I'm an ex-coach, so am close with many coaches today and the story is the same -- they have had it with the worthless OHSAA . AD will refuse to join with parochials in leagues and will not schedule them. PERIOD. The dam has burst on this. There would be a HUGE change in this state if the players played at their OWN home town schools and didn't play at the Parochials , the way it was decades ago. I still have contacts in the Columbus area. The Columbus diocese only set up boundaries because the schools were raiding each others neighborhoods. Surely you know the stories on DeSales. Cincinnati Moeller several years ago was caught with the coaches hand in the cookie jar recruiting players. They also looked into boundaries. This isn't about school funding or education system,s. Its about INTEGRITY in athletics and competitve athletics, something that is seriously out of whack. The coaches & AD have moved to address it for leagues & regular season schedules. But the playoffs are the last stop in creating something that fundamentally is fair
• Paladin

  BTW, I don't feel like I'm being "picked on". I'm just a messenger. The coaches & ADs of the public schools are who you have to talk to as they are the ones now who are making the conscious decisions. In some quarters, the fact that many of the OHSAA administrators are products of parochial schools leaves some with major suspicions but they can only control playoffs at this point. League & season schedules still belong to the individual schools and those are being structured accordingly. Some will continue to hide their heads in the sands and say "what problems" with the playoffs. Based on what I'm hearing, the situation is going to change.
• ijustwanttopost

  I'm not disagreeing that there are people out there paying for a student's tuition. This is absolutely wrong. But there is a possibility that an athlete could pick up a waiver from the state government to attend a private school. This depends on the school district the student lives in... whether it's a low income school or not.
  
  Also, about the boundaries for the columbus catholic schools...yes, they were created so the schools couldn't "steal" each other's students. Do you think though that this helps prevent one or two schools from being extremely loaded with athletes?
  
  Paladin, I only said "picked on" because I didn't want you to feel like I was directing my post towards you, just the topic in general. And I agree as well, something is going to change. And a change is probably necessary. I just feel that the entire problem is not private schools.
• general94

  Is it true that over half the board at OHSAA are graduates of Private Schools? I have heard this and was just wondering. If true, this would seem to stink to high heaven. They are making athletic policy for the 80% of schools in the state of Ohio (public) that they did not attend themselves. I have heard many people compare the OHSAA board to a "good ol boys club" and I believe more and more every day that this idea may be correct. Maybe it is time for a good house cleaning there.
• ijustwanttopost

  General94, absolutely not. It's the other way around.
• general94

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Thanks. Does anybody know what the breakdown is?
• FairwoodKing

  In Steubenville, we take a different approach. Instead of avoiding the privates, we do our best to beat them. Over the past five years, we are 26-3 against private schools. We beat DeSales and Alter in the state finals in 2005 and 2006, and we beat Mooney in the semifinal in 2008. This year we play four Catholic schools in the regular season from three states. One of those is Ursuline, the 2-time defending state champ.
  
  Splitting the privates and publics for the playoffs would taint the process. If Big Red had won the public playoff in 2005 and DeSales had won the private playoff, neither team could really claim to be state champ.
• ijustwanttopost

  General94, I justr re-read the post. I'm not sure. I thought you were talking about the committee that were discussing if changes need to be made to create a more level playing field. Sorry about that
• Paladin

  I think the concern is that most of the administrators in OHSAA have private school backgrounds. The committees I have no idea about.
  
  Big Red. Another problem child, this time in public schools. Kids are there from across the river in Weirton & Follansbee in W.V. and Winterville, Mingo Jct, Toronto and other districts in Ohio over the years. Except for the Pope, there hasn't been much diference between parochials and Big Red. Two peas in the same pod.
• oozwaj

  Paladin;458721 wrote:I think the concern is that most of the administrators in OHSAA have private school backgrounds. The committees I have no idea about.
  
  Big Red. Another problem child, this time in public schools. Kids are there from across the river in Weirton & Follansbee in W.V. and Winterville, Mingo Jct, Toronto and other districts in Ohio over the years. Except for the Pope, there hasn't been much diference between parochials and Big Red. Two peas in the same pod.

  
  You whiner's kill me......... So Steubenville has open enrollment and is a traditional winner and you label them as recruiting cheaters?
  
  I don't get it guys. What do you want? Besides everyone else to lay down so your team can win? Will that finally shut you up, if we all forfeited so that you can now win?
  
  Maybe channel more effort into your kids and program and not so much time bashing everyone else's successful programs.
  
  I can name dozens of good private and parochial programs that are winners without recruiting, so stop labelling everyone in with the few who bend the rules.
  
  How is private school scholarships any different then state open enrollment vouchers? Isn't a free education the same no matter what you call it?
  
  And I have many many examples of OHSAA not being a biased private school backer, if you would like to hear them?
• dlazz

  OHSAA should split them up due to the fact that private schools aren't required to push the OGT's/proficiency tests on their students.
• oozwaj

  dlazz;459543 wrote:OHSAA should split them up due to the fact that private schools aren't required to push the OGT's/proficiency tests on their students.

  
  But yet the private schools still take them and usually score higher then the publics. What does that have to do with football skills anyhow? You implying that they have less time to practice or something?
• FairwoodKing

  Paladin;458721 wrote:I think the concern is that most of the administrators in OHSAA have private school backgrounds. The committees I have no idea about.
  
  Big Red. Another problem child, this time in public schools. Kids are there from across the river in Weirton & Follansbee in W.V. and Winterville, Mingo Jct, Toronto and other districts in Ohio over the years. Except for the Pope, there hasn't been much diference between parochials and Big Red. Two peas in the same pod.

  
  Big Red is the poster child for how to do things right. We don't recruit because we don't have to. The success of our program attracts players from all over the valley. If a player choses Big Red, he will get the best coaching, he will play in front of huge crowds and against the toughest competition, and he can expect to play long into November and even December. That is why players and their parents chose Steubenville.
• dlazz

  oozwaj;459575 wrote:But yet the private schools still take them and usually score higher then the publics. What does that have to do with football skills anyhow? You implying that they have less time to practice or something?

  
  I'm implying that you're comparing apples to oranges. Kids in public high schools are held to different education standards than their private school counterparts.
• oozwaj

  dlazz;459624 wrote:I'm implying that you're comparing apples to oranges. Kids in public high schools are held to different education standards than their private school counterparts.

  
  I'm not sure how?
  
  My experience with most private schools is that they raise the bar as far as OGT/SAT/ACT testing scores. As well as % of student population who go on to attend secondary education. Not sure how you feel publics are held to a "higher" standard? I would say lower. So then they should have more time to practice football right!?!?
• dlazz

  oozwaj;460212 wrote:I'm not sure how?
  
  My experience with most private schools is that they raise the bar as far as OGT/SAT/ACT testing scores. As well as % of student population who go on to attend secondary education. Not sure how you feel publics are held to a "higher" standard? I would say lower. So then they should have more time to practice football right!?!?

  
  I didn't say it was a higher standard, I said a DIFFERENT standard.
  
  If you'd actually read my post, you'd understand.