Public vs. Private

• wkfan

  Red_Skin_Pride;454823 wrote:I am in agreement with keeping them together, as my previous post states...however, you make a point in this post that I hope you can address. You say "top public schools" are equal to or greater than many private schools...and I agree. However, what are the other 95% of public open enrollment schools supposed to do, that are not equal to many private schools on a yearly basis because of the reasons you listed above? Are we supposed to just suck it up and be ok with having a great year, making the playoffs and then promptly getting beat by a school that pulled all of the best athletes from their county/area on to 1 team so they could beat teams like ours? Obviously, that does not happen at every private school, and I think locally, Newark Catholic is NOT a terrible school in terms of recruitment, BUT we've all seen schools, pretty much year in and year out where this happens. I guess my question is, do you think there's some proper way of finding some sort of middle ground, where there might be a little bit of overlap and both sides could compromise?

  Basically, while the current system is not fair in terms of 'enrollment area', recruiting, etc.....those schools at a disadvantage need to work harder with what they have and let the chips fall where they may.
  
  Now, that being said, I would not be opposed to a 'multiplier' being applied to hte private schools in terms of division assignment. This would not help the D1 public schools, but so be it.
• clickclickboom

  Here's a question.. if we seperate them then there will be 7 schools in the private school playoffs? how would that work? there's not enough private schools to seperate them from the public
• oozwaj

  skank;453273 wrote:No comparison, edge goes to the privates.

  
  I'm curious, In what way are you saying the privates have an advantage over the publics?
  
  You guys are all crazy! In these very hard economic times all schools will take any warm blooded kid into their system for the $$$. You're delusional if you think any different. Period. No school would deny an average athlete from coming to their school. Now they may cut them from the team or not play them, but that's a coaches decision not the schools. And as far as recruiting, it just does not happen that much anymore, and certainly not at all at the small school divisions. And 90% of kids transferring to the bigger school programs are the PARENTS shopping their own kids around to the better programs. And if you deny this you are once again delusional. So the good programs, private or public sell themselves. The better athlete's approach the school, not the other way around. Oh I'm sure there's exceptions, just like with anything. But in general talent flocks to talented programs with no recruiting going on. Good example Glenville. Not private and I would bet most transfers there went to play for Coach Ginn and where never recruited by Coach Ginn. Does Glenville turn down new students because they are not a star football player? I highly doubt it.
  
  So if you are going to make a general statement that a separate division (or multiplier) is needed for private schools, just because they win so they must recruit...... well I guess you should also have one for publics who win too (because they also must recruit).
  
  The differential between programs that win and programs that lose is coaching and all the player's personal work ethics.
• wkfan

  oozwaj;455925 wrote:The differential between programs that win and programs that lose is coaching and all the player's personal work ethics.

  Whatever helps you sleep at night......
• Bigdogg

  oozwaj;455925 wrote:
  The differential between programs that win and programs that lose is coaching and all the player's personal work ethics.

  
  And the fact that they don't have to take the kids who really don't want to be in school.
• oozwaj

  wkfan;455933 wrote:Whatever helps you sleep at night......

  
  I sleep well thank you I am not the one on here whining about unfair playing fields. And we we ask you to give proof you make 5th grader comments.
  
  Bigdogg you must not have read my post whatsoever???
• general94

  How many "special needs" or "learning disability" students do privates have to take? Answer: none. I'm sure there are some privates that take these students with open arms. (and it is probably better for them because they have a better chance to have success with more one on one attention) But publics do not (nor should they) get to deny these students the right to go to school. However, these students are still counted in enrollment numbers for school size, and I'm sure that a vast majority of these students attend public schools. So you could say the difference is between the overall student body, or in otherwords, privates usually have many more athletes to pick from before the first whistle is ever blown. Some people just want to keep burying their head in the sand I guess.
• oozwaj

  general94;456250 wrote:How many "special needs" or "learning disability" students do privates have to take? Answer: none. I'm sure there are some privates that take these students with open arms. (and it is probably better for them because they have a better chance to have success with more one on one attention) But publics do not (nor should they) get to deny these students the right to go to school. However, these students are still counted in enrollment numbers for school size, and I'm sure that a vast majority of these students attend public schools. So you could say the difference is between the overall student body, or in otherwords, privates usually have many more athletes to pick from before the first whistle is ever blown. Some people just want to keep burying their head in the sand I guess.

  
  Wow you guys are really stretching it with this special needs kids excuse. Are you serious? Last time I looked there were 11 on 11 on the field. So what you are saying is that as an example say Glenville has 1000 boys in the school, but maybe 50 special needs kids. So they should be Div 2 because the special needs kids are not athletes? You mean to tell me that they can not find some good players from the other 950 boys? Give me break
  
  So if that's your beef then fine, redo the div's minus the # of special needs boys. It will change nothing except that you will be knocked out of the Div 2 playoffs now instead of D1 and we will be at the same place...... blaming the Div 2 catholic school who beat you. If you want to beat the privates, stop coming up with excuses and start looking within your program and at your own kids. That's the solution
• Tiger2003

  

  Wasn't last years state title games about 50/50 for Private and Public schools. I know Division 1 was all Public
• skank

  

  oozwaj;455925 wrote:I'm curious, In what way are you saying the privates have an advantage over the publics?
  
  You guys are all crazy! In these very hard economic times all schools will take any warm blooded kid into their system for the $$$. You're delusional if you think any different. Period. No school would deny an average athlete from coming to their school. Now they may cut them from the team or not play them, but that's a coaches decision not the schools. And as far as recruiting, it just does not happen that much anymore, and certainly not at all at the small school divisions. And 90% of kids transferring to the bigger school programs are the PARENTS shopping their own kids around to the better programs. And if you deny this you are once again delusional. So the good programs, private or public sell themselves. The better athlete's approach the school, not the other way around. Oh I'm sure there's exceptions, just like with anything. But in general talent flocks to talented programs with no recruiting going on. Good example Glenville. Not private and I would bet most transfers there went to play for Coach Ginn and where never recruited by Coach Ginn. Does Glenville turn down new students because they are not a star football player? I highly doubt it.
  
  So if you are going to make a general statement that a separate division (or multiplier) is needed for private schools, just because they win so they must recruit...... well I guess you should also have one for publics who win too (because they also must recruit).
  
  The differential between programs that win and programs that lose is coaching and all the player's personal work ethics.

  
  Private school coaches have advantages that publics don't as far as contacting families.
  
  I love when watching college football, and they're introducing the players during the first drive, you know, with the players pictures, and they have Ignatius kids on the team, they list their hometowns, ones from Strongsville, one from Solon, one from Willoughby, one from Parma, one from Sandusky, you get the point.
• skank

  

  Furthermore, I doubt the OHSAA would take the time to even explore this if there weren't some validity to it.
• Bigdogg

  I am not even including special needs kids, just the ones taking up space and hanging out in the bathroom. It would be interesting to compare the percentage of public school kids involved in extracurricular activities vs privates.
• general94

  I was mainly talking about the lower divisions. Some schools in Appalachia have 15-20% of their kids that are special needs. Not a big deal when you are talking about a school with 1,000 boys, but when you are talking about a Div. V or VI school with 100-150 boys, that is a BIG deal. Bottom line is the system that is in place now will always favor the privates because public schools are required by law to take EVERY student that lives in their school district.
• queencitybuckeye

  skank;456476 wrote:Private school coaches have advantages that publics don't as far as contacting families.
  
  I love when watching college football, and they're introducing the players during the first drive, you know, with the players pictures, and they have Ignatius kids on the team, they list their hometowns, ones from Strongsville, one from Solon, one from Willoughby, one from Parma, one from Sandusky, you get the point.

  
  And yet seven times in the last 14 years in the big school division, a public school has overcome this supposedly insurmountable disadvantage and taken home the title. Guess those of us whose schools are part of those titles have done a lousy job of teaching our kids about seeing excuses rather than opportunity. Our bad.
• Tiger2003

  

  Who cares.....this convo is getting no where.....
• oozwaj

  skank;456476 wrote:Private school coaches have advantages that publics don't as far as contacting families.
  
  I love when watching college football, and they're introducing the players during the first drive, you know, with the players pictures, and they have Ignatius kids on the team, they list their hometowns, ones from Strongsville, one from Solon, one from Willoughby, one from Parma, one from Sandusky, you get the point.

  
  I don't see how private coaches have an advantage to contact the players? Please explain.
  
  I guess my point on seeing the Ignatius kid on Sat playing college ball, why is your first thought SOB lives in Strongsville? That's the problem that is channeled down to our youth. All of our first thoughts should be great for him he worked his tail off and has a free ride. No it's the fact that he's a private school kid from a different city. You really don't think this same major college player would not still be playing if he stayed at Strongville high? They will find the talent wherever it is. What is your feeling when the kid on TV from Strongsville is listed as hometown Brunswick, since they have open enrollement (example)? Why is that any different?
• wkfan

  oozwaj;456112 wrote:I sleep well thank you I am not the one on here whining about unfair playing fields. And we we ask you to give proof you make 5th grader comments.
  
  Bigdogg you must not have read my post whatsoever???

  
  There are many. many, MANY public schools who have excellent coaching and extremely hard working and dedicated players. The difference that I am pointing out....and let's hear you dispute it....is that private schools pull student/athletes from a much larger geographical area than do public schools.
  
  To assert that the only difference between winning and losing programs is coaching and the players 'personal work ethic' is lame and preposterous....not to mention arrogant and just plain wrong.
• wkfan

  Bigdogg;456484 wrote:I am not even including special needs kids, just the ones taking up space and hanging out in the bathroom. It would be interesting to compare the percentage of public school kids involved in extracurricular activities vs privates.

  I would bet it is much higher in Private schools.
  
  Private schools don't have special needs classrooms and they can be selective in who they admit. Public schools don't have that luxury...in fact, public schools are admitting more and more special needs kids to 'mainstream' them....a duty and responsibility that private schools do not have to take on.
  
  That being said.....this is not a bad thing, but is part of the game for each.
• Bigdogg

  A couple of years ago I was told that Delphos St. John had every boy in the high school but three on the football teams.
• oozwaj

  wkfan;456953 wrote:There are many. many, MANY public schools who have excellent coaching and extremely hard working and dedicated players. The difference that I am pointing out....and let's hear you dispute it....is that private schools pull student/athletes from a much larger geographical area than do public schools.
  
  To assert that the only difference between winning and losing programs is coaching and the players 'personal work ethic' is lame and preposterous....not to mention arrogant and just plain wrong.

  
  DISPUTED = OPEN ENROLLMENT.
  Which means that you can pull students from any school district that touches yours.
  
  Yes I must have missed the spelling class that day, maybe I was accepting my state football championship ring that day!?
• clickclickboom

  privates have an advantage by having better schooling and better traditions to attract the parents into putting their kids into those schools but the one thing the private schools miss out on is having a town behind them and looking behind them on friday night and seeing the whole community cheering them on.. all the private schools really have is students parents and alum... which is nice but it doesnt compare.. I'd take the feeling of a community on my side over 5 state championships in 10 years any day.. which sounds a little crazy but its true
• skank

  

  queencitybuckeye;456584 wrote:And yet seven times in the last 14 years in the big school division, a public school has overcome this supposedly insurmountable disadvantage and taken home the title. Guess those of us whose schools are part of those titles have done a lousy job of teaching our kids about seeing excuses rather than opportunity. Our bad.

  
  Yeah, 50%, ain't bad is it? until you wake up and realize that this means the OTHER 50% were won by private schools. Now, try to realize that in Div I, there are 113 public schools, and only 7 privates.
  
  Go back and read the series of articles in the Cleveland PD about private school coaches and some of the things they do and see what you have to say then. And as far as your smart way of talking about excuses and opportunity, all anybody ever wants is a fair fight.
• skank

  

  oozwaj;457070 wrote:DISPUTED = OPEN ENROLLMENT.
  Which means that you can pull students from any school district that touches yours.
  
  Yes I must have missed the spelling class that day, maybe I was accepting my state football championship ring that day!?

  
  You must have been awesome.
• thereddragin

  Skank.... I'm at work and can't do the research myself.. and it seems that you like to dig up #'s so i'll ask you to do me a favor... get the numbers for d3 and lower and see the percentanges... in my line of thinking the big boys can hang with the privates its the small schools that suffer... take a local school around here... Caldwell High school... last year they were DVI made the playoffs... this year they got bumped up to D-V by 2 boys.... I know personally 4 special needs kids that go to the school... if they were not counted (i think they should be) then Caldwell would stay DVI.... if they were a Private school... they could have told those 4 kids... thanks but no thanks... get my drift?
  
  ps i really don't care if you get the numbers or not... just thought they'd be intersting to know
• oozwaj

  skank;457104 wrote:You must have been awesome.

  
  You're implying that I'm still not?
  
  The very large public school's need to stop looking at everything else as an excuse and look inside their own walls, that's all I'm saying. What percentage of the schools boys play or go out for football in many public schools? I bet you search the halls and your missing athlete's are there.