2013/14 NBA season chatter - let the LBJ hating begin!
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sleeper
20 a night and won't win a playoff series like he did in Toronto. Any idiot in the NBA can score 20 a night if given enough shots.robj55;1629389 wrote:Yes because that's his role with that team, but him back as a number one or two option and he gets 20 a night no problem. -
Dr. KnOiTaLL
Everyone is overpaid. With the greed that comes with being a professional athlete anymore, if one team won't pay you, another will. That's professional sports.sleeper;1629408 wrote:You know who else is a great shooter? Tim Duncan. He makes about $10M a year and is a key piece to the current NBA champions. Are you sure this is something you want to pin your current illogical position to?
Bosh is overpaid. This is not a debate, this is a lecture. -
sleeper
Name another player on the Raptors during Bosh's time. You can't, he played with trash an was their only option. How many playoff series did he win? Zero.Dr. KnOiTaLL;1629405 wrote:You guys are silly if you don't think Bosh could still drop 20 a game. Look at his career stats.
In 7 seasons with Toronto, he averaged 20.2 ppg on 14.4 shot attempts and 7.4 FT attempts per game with 9.4 rebounds per game. In 4 seasons with Miami, he's averaged 17.3 ppg on 13.0 shot attempts and 4.6 FT attempts per game with 7.4 rebounds per game. He's not guilty of anything but accepting his role and adapting to the system. He took on a lesser (yet more efficient) role in order to win. -
robj55
You couldn't be more wrong, have you seen some of these NBA contracts? To say Bosh is only worth 10 million a year is laughable. Oh and Tim Duncan is 37 years old, Bosh is 30 and he was 26 when he went to Miami.sleeper;1629408 wrote:You know who else is a great shooter? Tim Duncan. He makes about $10M a year and is a key piece to the current NBA champions. Are you sure this is something you want to pin your current illogical position to?
Bosh is overpaid. This is not a debate, this is a lecture. -
sleeper
Lebron is overpaid? Tim Duncan is overpaid?Dr. KnOiTaLL;1629411 wrote:Everyone is overpaid. With the greed that comes with being a professional athlete anymore, if one team won't pay you, another will. That's professional sports. -
sleeper
The NBA market isn't always rational and doesn't always equal production. It's perceived production that dictates contract values in relation to other FA's on the market. Bosh is worth $10M tops if the market was rational. Again, which team correctly allocated their cap space and won an NBA championship and which team overpaid for perceived production and couldn't get the job done?robj55;1629413 wrote:You couldn't be more wrong, have you seen some of these NBA contracts? To say Bosh is only worth 10 million a year is laughable, oh and Tim Duncan is 37 years old, Bosh is 30 and he was 26 when he went to Miami. -
lhslep134
You haven't actually put forth any facts substantiating your argument: all you've done is proffer opinion couched as fact. Some examples:sleeper;1629408 wrote:You know who else is a great shooter? Tim Duncan. He makes about $10M a year and is a key piece to the current NBA champions. Are you sure this is something you want to pin your current illogical position to?
Bosh is overpaid. This is not a debate, this is a lecture.
1) "production doesn't back up salaries". Care to elaborate? until you do, this first statement is worthless without anything to back it up.
2) "suboptimal to winning a championship". Suboptimal in what way? The way that they won the previous two championships? Once again, without elaboration, worthless fluffery.
If you guys haven't noticed, this is Sleeper's preferred form of arguing when he doesn't have any substantiated fact to back up his claims: he couches his opinions in fluff statements that he calls "facts"
Sleeper, if you ever want to join the "big leagues" of this conversation, come back with some hard evidence. Otherwise, stick to the minors on this topic. -
robj55
Except that he wasn't a volume shooter.sleeper;1629410 wrote:20 a night and won't win a playoff series like he did in Toronto. Any idiot in the NBA can score 20 a night if given enough shots. -
robj55
We aren't going off Sleeper's rational market, we are going off what the market dictates he is worth and what it actually is.sleeper;1629415 wrote:The NBA market isn't always rational and doesn't always equal production. It's perceived production that dictates contract values in relation to other FA's on the market. Bosh is worth $10M tops if the market was rational. Again, which team correctly allocated their cap space and won an NBA championship and which team overpaid for perceived production and couldn't get the job done? -
lhslep134
For anyone who would like some hard evidence that Bosh is still a fantastic playerlhslep134;1629367 wrote:And here sleeper, if you don't want to take my word for it, take his:
http://grantland.com/features/chris-bosh-2014-miami-heat-career-scoring/ -
pmoney25
Bosh was a good player on a bad team. Not hard to pad your stats. Two playoff appearances, best season was 47 wins other playoff season was .500. Yea he could go to the Bucks and average 20 but they still would suck. -
robj55
That's 99% of the league, there are less than 5 guys in the game who can make the type of impact individually that dictates winning and losing by themselves.pmoney25;1629426 wrote:Bosh was a good player on a bad team. Not hard to pad your stats. Two playoff appearances, best season was 47 wins other playoff season was .500. Yea he could go to the Bucks and average 20 but they still would suck. -
pmoney25
fantastic? you don't believe that. good or adequate, maybe.lhslep134;1629424 wrote:For anyone who would like some hard evidence that Bosh is still a fantastic player -
lhslep134
Read the article and tell he he's good at best. I'll have a good chuckle. He's an perennial all star. Perennial all stars = fantastic players (not star, not superstar, but fantastic).pmoney25;1629430 wrote:fantastic? you don't believe that. good or adequate, maybe.
You're misconstruing fantastic to mean superstar, or even a top 10 player. -
sleeper
You are under the assumption that the NBA market is rational. It's not. Otherwise, explain how Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis were once the highest paid players in the NBA.robj55;1629422 wrote:We aren't going off Sleeper's rational market, we are going off what the market dictates he is worth and what it actually is. -
lhslep134
To illustrate my point, these are also players that I deem fantastic but aren't superstars or in some cases, not even stars:pmoney25;1629430 wrote:fantastic? you don't believe that. good or adequate, maybe.
Mike Conley
Serge Ibaka
Al Jefferson
John Wall
Demarcus Cousins
all of those players were around, slightly above, or slightly below Bosh in win shares this year. -
sleeper
Statistics can be manipulated and marginalized. Logic can neither be manipulated or marginalized, just misunderstood.lhslep134;1629417 wrote:You haven't actually put forth any facts substantiating your argument: all you've done is proffer opinion couched as fact. Some examples:
1) "production doesn't back up salaries". Care to elaborate? until you do, this first statement is worthless without anything to back it up.
2) "suboptimal to winning a championship". Suboptimal in what way? The way that they won the previous two championships? Once again, without elaboration, worthless fluffery.
If you guys haven't noticed, this is Sleeper's preferred form of arguing when he doesn't have any substantiated fact to back up his claims: he couches his opinions in fluff statements that he calls "facts"
Sleeper, if you ever want to join the "big leagues" of this conversation, come back with some hard evidence. Otherwise, stick to the minors on this topic.
To answer your second question, they had a sub-optimal resource allocation THIS year with a waste of production from the overpaid players of Bosh and Wade. Perhaps last year Bosh and Wade produced enough to justify their salary, but since they did not win THIS year they are not operating as efficiently as they need to for the amount of cap space they eat up. Lebron understands this and that is why he has opted out to put pressure on the Heat to do something about their poorly allocated cap situation. -
Dr. KnOiTaLL
Pretty sure he played with DeRozen, Kyle Lowry, and Andrea Bargnani (before the injuries).sleeper;1629412 wrote:Name another player on the Raptors during Bosh's time. You can't, he played with trash an was their only option. How many playoff series did he win? Zero. -
Dr. KnOiTaLL
There was a span of about 3 years where Gilbert Arenas was a STUD. Not saying that he should have ever been the highest paid player in the NBA, but after averaging 27+ ppg over the course of a season, a dude's gonna get paid. Washington was just dumb enough to take it to the extreme.sleeper;1629433 wrote:You are under the assumption that the NBA market is rational. It's not. Otherwise, explain how Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis were once the highest paid players in the NBA. -
sleeper
Lol. Exactly! Bosh padded numbers by being the #1 option on a shitty team and never won anything. He's overpaid on the Heat for essentially being a mediocre 3-point shooter. He's going to opt in because he won't get $20 elsewhere and if he does there's no chance Lebron stays with zero percent chance of the Heat making any significant roster upgrades. Do people not realize how shitty Miami's bench is? The Big 3 can get you far but not with Bosh and Wade being 2/3 of that Big 3.Dr. KnOiTaLL;1629443 wrote:Pretty sure he played with DeRozen, Kyle Lowry, and Andrea Bargnani (before the injuries). -
sleeper
This of course is irrational. 27 PPG and zero playoff series wins. The guy is the definition of a chucker and was overpaid substantially. Thank you for proving my point that the NBA FA market is not rational.Dr. KnOiTaLL;1629451 wrote:There was a span of about 3 years where Gilbert Arenas was a STUD. Not saying that he should have ever been the highest paid player in the NBA, but after averaging 27+ ppg over the course of a season, a dude's gonna get paid. Washington was just dumb enough to take it to the extreme. -
Dr. KnOiTaLL
Actually in 2004-2005, they advanced to the second round of the playoffs after beating Chicago in 6. Good fail, though.sleeper;1629457 wrote:This of course is irrational. 27 PPG and zero playoff series wins. The guy is the definition of a chucker and was overpaid substantially. Thank you for proving my point that the NBA FA market is not rational. -
lhslep134
Sleeper you and I are both in agreement the Heat 's current model (2013/14) didn't work. However, I vehemently stand by my assertion that Bosh had nothing to do with it, both on the court with his vastly expansive game and off the court, with his $19M salary. Again, Bosh earned his money, or at the very least, most of it.
The problem is very simple, and his name is Dwayne Wade. Wade's massively disproportionate salary to performance ratio, when combined with them being "hamstrung"* by the limited space available, contributed way more to the Heat's demise this year than Bosh.
Disagree?
*I'm sorry but if you're a billionaire owner, I'm not going to feel sorry you don't want to pay a few extra million dollars in salary cap penalties. -
Dr. KnOiTaLL
I agree with this statement completely. Not to mention, over the course of the big 3 era, DWade has only been on the court 75% of the time.lhslep134;1629461 wrote:Sleeper you and I are both in agreement the Heat 's current model (2013/14) didn't work. However, I vehemently stand by my assertion that Bosh had nothing to do with it, both on the court with his vastly expansive game and off the court, with his $19M salary. Again, Bosh earned his money.
The problem is very simple, and his name is Dwayne Wade. Wade's massively disproportionate salary to performance ratio, when combined with them being "hamstrung"* by the limited space available, contributed way more to the Heat's demise this year than Bosh.
Disagree?
*I'm sorry but if you're a billionaire owner, I'm not going to feel sorry you don't want to pay a few extra million dollars in salary cap penalties. -
sleeper
Congrats. Bosh had very little to do with the team at that point and was paid an appropriate $3.1. Cut his current salary around that and you'd get some value out of him.Dr. KnOiTaLL;1629460 wrote:Actually in 2004-2005, they advanced to the second round of the playoffs after beating Chicago in 6. Good fail, though.