Cleveland Browns Draft Talk 2010

• DaBrowns41

  iclfan2 wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote: if you can't get the big boys to take up space and eat blockers, then you won't succeed defensively in a 34.
  
  Suh is the most obvious choice, but there's no use in trading up for him when there's so much talent still left after him.

  You contradict yourself. If having big boys to take up space on the D-line is of upmost importance (which I agree) then Suh is not the choice whatsoever. He would be wasted as a "big man eating up blockers" and as a DE in a 3-4. Even if we went to a 4-3, trading up in this draft when we will have a top 10, maybe even 5 pick, would be useless. There will still be talent left in the draft.

  Oh, so you're telling me now that he doesn't get double teamed nearly every play?
  
  Oh, he does?
  
  Ok, I rest my case.
  
  Suh is the ideal candidate for a 34 DE, followed closely by Gerald McCoy.
  
  Both of these guys demand double teams because of their ability to penetrate, while both are also great laterally. Both are very strong, and can stop the run.
• DaBrowns41

  devil1197 wrote:

  pkebker wrote: I think the salary cap being gone is a terrible idea for the NFL...

  I agree, but if you have the money then you might as well spend it. The NBA has a salary cap but the great teams like LA, Cavs etc. continually go over the cap and pay the luxury tax. Having a cap means little to the big teams who have owners that will pay the money.
  
  But having no salary cap won't help Cleveland at all. They are still going to have to one up the better teams to even get interest. Unless the new HC is well liked by the NFL players.

  I'm in disagreement.
  
  I think it will help Cleveland, simply because Lerner isn't afraid to spend money.
  
  Not to mention, this isn't like baseball where all the winning teams can just sign whoever they want.
  
  The top 8 playoff teams will all be restricted to FA signings. They can only sign up to as many free agents as they lost. So if New England loses Randy Moss and Wes Welker to FA, then they can only sign 2 players in free agency.
  
  Cleveland is one of the few teams that would benefit from zero cap. And since we don't win, we can sign whoever we want!
• iclfan2

  

  DaBrowns41 wrote:

  iclfan2 wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote: if you can't get the big boys to take up space and eat blockers, then you won't succeed defensively in a 34.
  
  Suh is the most obvious choice, but there's no use in trading up for him when there's so much talent still left after him.

  You contradict yourself. If having big boys to take up space on the D-line is of upmost importance (which I agree) then Suh is not the choice whatsoever. He would be wasted as a "big man eating up blockers" and as a DE in a 3-4. Even if we went to a 4-3, trading up in this draft when we will have a top 10, maybe even 5 pick, would be useless. There will still be talent left in the draft.

  Oh, so you're telling me now that he doesn't get double teamed nearly every play?
  
  Oh, he does?
  
  Ok, I rest my case.
  
  Suh is the ideal candidate for a 34 DE, followed closely by Gerald McCoy.
  
  Both of these guys demand double teams because of their ability to penetrate, while both are also great laterally. Both are very strong, and can stop the run.

  I agree with your points on Suh. I just think for Cleveland we have bigger needs. I meant that there are other people to take up space in the draft that would come cheaper than Suh. He is an ideal candidate for a 3-4 DE on a team that only needs a DE. I think our secondary is hurting more than our D-line. JMO.
• DaBrowns41

  iclfan2 wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote:

  iclfan2 wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote: if you can't get the big boys to take up space and eat blockers, then you won't succeed defensively in a 34.
  
  Suh is the most obvious choice, but there's no use in trading up for him when there's so much talent still left after him.

  You contradict yourself. If having big boys to take up space on the D-line is of upmost importance (which I agree) then Suh is not the choice whatsoever. He would be wasted as a "big man eating up blockers" and as a DE in a 3-4. Even if we went to a 4-3, trading up in this draft when we will have a top 10, maybe even 5 pick, would be useless. There will still be talent left in the draft.

  Oh, so you're telling me now that he doesn't get double teamed nearly every play?
  
  Oh, he does?
  
  Ok, I rest my case.
  
  Suh is the ideal candidate for a 34 DE, followed closely by Gerald McCoy.
  
  Both of these guys demand double teams because of their ability to penetrate, while both are also great laterally. Both are very strong, and can stop the run.

  I agree with your points on Suh. I just think for Cleveland we have bigger needs. I meant that there are other people to take up space in the draft that would come cheaper than Suh. He is an ideal candidate for a 3-4 DE on a team that only needs a DE. I think our secondary is hurting more than our D-line. JMO.

  Our secondary is hurting why?
  
  Because we can't get pressure on the QB. Our secondary has to cover WR's for 6-9 seconds each play because the QB has all day.
  
  That starts with the DL. An elite DL gives our LB's a chance to get pressure on the QB, and stop the run. If the front 7 does that, then the secondary gets a big break.
  
  It doesn't matter if you put Ed Reed and Polamalu back in the secondary, they'll struggle if they have to cover WR's and TE's for 6-9 seconds.
• iclfan2

  

  B Mac is terrible. Elam and Furrey aren't really that talented safeties either. I would say Eric Wright and Pool are the only two (with a slight chance for Adams) to play on another team. They played awesome in the Steelers game because by actually covering receivers well it allowed the linebackers and DE's time to get in the backfield. I would also argue that our outside linebackers are as important as our DE's in a 3-4. I think we are arguing semantics here. If you have a good Dline you can cover better, however if you cover better you have a better chance of getting sacks. Additionally, if you have good outside LB's you can have worse DE's. Or you can have worse OLB's and better DE's.
• KnightRyder

  

  devil1197 wrote: So then your example for a good pick up is also worthless, just like your posting.
  
  Why will it change the FA market dramatically? Cleveland is still going to have to overpay the FA to come here because it isn't a great place to play right now. If the Patriots and Browns are offering the same guy 4 mil, who will he go to. A team that is proven to put you into the playoffs almost every year with a shot at the title or a team that is used to 3-5 win seasons? Cleveland is automatically going to have to tack on money just to even get the interest of the player, until proven otherwise Cleveland still has terrible luck in the FA market, and Cleveland is not appealing to come to outside of now having Holmgren in the FO. So yes the salary cap may be gone but that doesn't change the fact that Cleveland will be overpaying talent that have a track record of producing shit.
  
  Please, continue to act like you know everything. You have been wrong with about 50+ of your 73 posts. There hypocritical and flat out stupid.

  who says cleveland will be over paying for talent that that have a track record of producing, you? butch davis and phil savage are gone, do you get that? what they have done in tha past has no bearing on what they are gonna do in future. sure they might have to over pay but who says they will over pay for junk? and yes with the cap being gone it does change everything. especially if the owner wants to field a winner. the bottom line is money talks in sports world. you act like you can see the future who are you miss cleo?
• pkebker

  iclfan2 wrote: B Mac is terrible. Elam and Furrey aren't really that talented safeties either. I would say Eric Wright and Pool are the only two (with a slight chance for Adams) to play on another team. They played awesome in the Steelers game because by actually covering receivers well it allowed the linebackers and DE's time to get in the backfield. I would also argue that our outside linebackers are as important as our DE's in a 3-4. I think we are arguing semantics here. If you have a good Dline you can cover better, however if you cover better you have a better chance of getting sacks. Additionally, if you have good outside LB's you can have worse DE's. Or you can have worse OLB's and better DE's.

  Brodney Pool isn't that good either...he's been benched multiple times this season...
• Sonofanump

  I'd like to see Berry taken.
• DaBrowns41

  iclfan2 wrote: B Mac is terrible. Elam and Furrey aren't really that talented safeties either. I would say Eric Wright and Pool are the only two (with a slight chance for Adams) to play on another team. They played awesome in the Steelers game because by actually covering receivers well it allowed the linebackers and DE's time to get in the backfield. I would also argue that our outside linebackers are as important as our DE's in a 3-4. I think we are arguing semantics here. If you have a good Dline you can cover better, however if you cover better you have a better chance of getting sacks. Additionally, if you have good outside LB's you can have worse DE's. Or you can have worse OLB's and better DE's.

  I'm not saying that they aren't horrible, and certainly playing a WR at S isn't helping, but it doesn't matter who's back their if you can't stop the run, and can't get pressure on the QB.
  
  With the 34, you build from the trenches.
  
  Outside linebackers in a 34 can't get to the QB if the DL isn't doing their job and taking up space.
  
  The defensive line in the 34 is the most crucial part of the defense.
  
  The Patriots, Ravens, Cowboys, Steelers and Chargers have the best 34 defenses and they all have Pro-Bowl defensive lineman, or at least defensive lineman that are VERY talented.
  
  The Browns, 49ers, and some of the newer teams to run the 34 that don't succeed are struggling because they have no NT, and no DL.
• DaBrowns41

  pkebker wrote:

  iclfan2 wrote: B Mac is terrible. Elam and Furrey aren't really that talented safeties either. I would say Eric Wright and Pool are the only two (with a slight chance for Adams) to play on another team. They played awesome in the Steelers game because by actually covering receivers well it allowed the linebackers and DE's time to get in the backfield. I would also argue that our outside linebackers are as important as our DE's in a 3-4. I think we are arguing semantics here. If you have a good Dline you can cover better, however if you cover better you have a better chance of getting sacks. Additionally, if you have good outside LB's you can have worse DE's. Or you can have worse OLB's and better DE's.

  Brodney Pool isn't that good either...he's been benched multiple times this season...

  Pool is actually very talented. But he can't stay on the field. He doesn't get benched, he gets injured.
  
  Either way, we need 2 safeties and 1 corner.
• pkebker

  DaBrowns41 wrote:

  iclfan2 wrote: B Mac is terrible. Elam and Furrey aren't really that talented safeties either. I would say Eric Wright and Pool are the only two (with a slight chance for Adams) to play on another team. They played awesome in the Steelers game because by actually covering receivers well it allowed the linebackers and DE's time to get in the backfield. I would also argue that our outside linebackers are as important as our DE's in a 3-4. I think we are arguing semantics here. If you have a good Dline you can cover better, however if you cover better you have a better chance of getting sacks. Additionally, if you have good outside LB's you can have worse DE's. Or you can have worse OLB's and better DE's.

  I'm not saying that they aren't horrible, and certainly playing a WR at S isn't helping, but it doesn't matter who's back their if you can't stop the run, and can't get pressure on the QB.
  
  With the 34, you build from the trenches.
  
  Outside linebackers in a 34 can't get to the QB if the DL isn't doing their job and taking up space.
  
  The defensive line in the 34 is the most crucial part of the defense.
  
  The Patriots, Ravens, Cowboys, Steelers and Chargers have the best 34 defenses and they all have Pro-Bowl defensive lineman, or at least defensive lineman that are VERY talented.
  
  The Browns, 49ers, and some of the newer teams to run the 34 that don't succeed are struggling because they have no NT, and no DL.

  The Browns have a very effective NT for the 3/4 in Rogers
• Writerbuckeye

  

  The Browns actually have two fairly effective nose tackles right now. Amazing as that is. Their problem isn't a defensive line, it's linebackers (specifically a middle linebacker who isn't undersized) and at least one lockdown corner.
• pkebker

  Writerbuckeye wrote: The Browns actually have two fairly effective nose tackles right now. Amazing as that is. Their problem isn't a defensive line, it's linebackers (specifically a middle linebacker who isn't undersized) and at least one lockdown corner.

  Our LB core is very weak. LB is our biggest need right now. Then any DB position.
• Sonofanump

  pkebker wrote: The Browns have a very effective NT for the 3/4 in Rogers

  Every other play they do, he takes more time off than anyone.
• Sonofanump

  What is DQ52's status?
• pkebker

  Sonofanump wrote:

  pkebker wrote: The Browns have a very effective NT for the 3/4 in Rogers

  Every other play they do, he takes more time off than anyone.

  haha there is some truth to that. But as previously stated from another user, we have other effective DT's on the roster. LB's and DB's should be the teams area of focus...
• Sonofanump

  I think the LB are OK. Not great, but serviceable.
• DaBrowns41

  pkebker wrote:

  DaBrowns41 wrote:

  iclfan2 wrote: B Mac is terrible. Elam and Furrey aren't really that talented safeties either. I would say Eric Wright and Pool are the only two (with a slight chance for Adams) to play on another team. They played awesome in the Steelers game because by actually covering receivers well it allowed the linebackers and DE's time to get in the backfield. I would also argue that our outside linebackers are as important as our DE's in a 3-4. I think we are arguing semantics here. If you have a good Dline you can cover better, however if you cover better you have a better chance of getting sacks. Additionally, if you have good outside LB's you can have worse DE's. Or you can have worse OLB's and better DE's.

  I'm not saying that they aren't horrible, and certainly playing a WR at S isn't helping, but it doesn't matter who's back their if you can't stop the run, and can't get pressure on the QB.
  
  With the 34, you build from the trenches.
  
  Outside linebackers in a 34 can't get to the QB if the DL isn't doing their job and taking up space.
  
  The defensive line in the 34 is the most crucial part of the defense.
  
  The Patriots, Ravens, Cowboys, Steelers and Chargers have the best 34 defenses and they all have Pro-Bowl defensive lineman, or at least defensive lineman that are VERY talented.
  
  The Browns, 49ers, and some of the newer teams to run the 34 that don't succeed are struggling because they have no NT, and no DL.

  The Browns have a very effective NT for the 3/4 in Rogers

  No shit.
  
  Did I ever say we didn't? No.
  
  Either way, we still need 3 effective defensive lineman. Not to mention, even Rogers is getting older and getting injured more often.
  
  Anybody thinking we don't need DL help is an idiot, because that's the biggest problem with this defense.
• iclfan2

  

  Dl needs help? Yes. DL biggest problem with defense? I disagree, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
• DaBrowns41

  iclfan2 wrote: Dl needs help? Yes. DL biggest problem with defense? I disagree, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

  It's clear you don't understand how the 34 is ran, then.
  
  Show me a team that's thrived with the 34 and didn't have an elite, or great DL.
  
  Then, we'll talk.
• pkebker

  We all agree that the entire D needs help, but most on this site would also agree that DL is not the biggest concern on D. Our LB core and secondary are bigger needs. Let's hope the new boss agrees with us...
• DaBrowns41

  So if we grab Eric Berry, we still need another safety and another corner.
  
  If we grab McClain, we still need 1, maybe 2 OLB's.
  
  If we grab Suh/McCoy, we just need depth at DL.
  
  We've got a NT, and a solid backup NT.
  
  We've got Kenyon Coleman, who's very solid as a starter, along with Robaire (maybe) for depth. We have Corey Williams who's strictly situational.
  
  We need a DE on this team, badly.
  
  I would LOVE Berry or McClain though. I'm just saying that anybody who understands how the 34 defense is run, understands how rare it is to find 34 DE's that play at a high level, and how big the defensive line in a 34 effects the rest of the defense.
  
  Unfortunately, we may all get screwed because the new Boss may reach for Spiller when the time comes, assuming he's going to run the WCO.
• KnightRyder

  

  you need to keep in mind that the holmgren ran a 4-3 defense in green bay and seattle. so dont be surprised if the browns switch. plus they would be the only team in the afc north running a 4-3, that would be a advantage
• DaBrowns41

  We don't have the personnel for either the 43, or 34, so it doesn't matter.
  
  Either way, our draft needs to be focused on the defense with all of this talent.
  
  If we go with the 43 defense, then I'd gladly take McClain or Berry over Gerald McCoy, if Suh isn't available. If we run the 43, I'd even take Berry over McClain because Berry is a play maker, and McClain is meant for the 34, sort of like Patrick Willis, IMO.
• KnightRyder

  

  this guy seems to think otherwise http://bleacherreport.com/articles/313854-switching-to-a-4-3-defense-would-do-wonders-for-the-browns-holmgren