Cleveland Cavaliers 11-12 season thread

• Pick6

  

  ohiobucks1;1191294 wrote:Ok 85%
  
  And look at Lamb. He was a hell of a lot better last year with Walker than this year

  Lamb still put up better numbers this season without Walker than Barnes did WITH Marshall. Everybody is going to benefit from playing alongside a great PG.
• KR1245

  

  Commander of Awesome;1191267 wrote:Who is this guy? I've never even heard of him.

  Big SF from Iowa State, he's listed at 6'8 270
  
  I was only able to watch him a few times but those games were against big time teams. I like guys that get up and play well against the the best
  
  In his two games against KU he went for 18 & 17 and 18 & 9
  He put up 23 & 9 vs Kentucky in the toruney.
• wes_mantooth

  

  Pick6;1191298 wrote:Lamb still put up better numbers this season without Walker than Barnes did WITH Marshall. Everybody is going to benefit from playing alongside a great PG.

  I honestly could care less about numbers when it comes to going from college to pros. It is a completely different game and you have to find the players that fit. If it went solely on numbers, that kid from BYU would be the best player in the NBA already.
• KR1245

  

  ohiobucks1;1191286 wrote:I don't understand this argument. We all agree that KI is better than Marshall right? And we must assume KI will be playing in 95% of the games HB plays in right? So by that logic HB should be fine since he has a PG with him. If anything we are the perfect situation for him.

  I guess my argument would be that a top 5 pick in the NBA draft shouldnt need a PG to help him out vs a team like OU. I dont want to take anything away from OU but he should have been able to do whatever he wanted to out there.
• ohiobucks1

  

  17.7 vs 17.1 PPG Lamb
  48% vs 44 % Lamb
  4.9 vs 5.2 Reb = Barnes
  34% vs 36% 3 point % = Barnes
  2.0 turnovers for both
  
  37.2 vs 29.2 Mins per game
  
  
  Those stats show Barnes to be the better player IMO. Give the man 8 more mins a game and youre looking at 4 more points and 1 more rebound per game putting him above Lamb in almost all categories.
  
  
  I just don't understand the hate for Barnes. It's almost as if because he was labeled an All American before coming in and didn't absolutely break records people are hating on him.
  
  
  I understand people say he is a little soft, but I'm sure with KI and Byron tutoring him he will be fine. I'd be perfectly happy getting him @4
• Pick6

  

  wes_mantooth;1191301 wrote:I honestly could care less about numbers when it comes to going from college to pros. It is a completely different game and you have to find the players that fit. If it went solely on numbers, that kid from BYU would be the best player in the NBA already.

  I agree. The only arguments I'm seeing for Barnes though are numbers,however those really aren't making him look better than other prospects. I'm not some diehard UNC fan, but what I have watched of them he seemed more of a spot up shooter...I want somebody who can create.
• ohiobucks1

  

  KR1245;1191306 wrote:I guess my argument would be that a top 5 pick in the NBA draft shouldnt need a PG to help him out vs a team like OU. I dont want to take anything away from OU but he should have been able to do whatever he wanted to out there.

  I agree they shouldn't have to, but it kind of is a moot point for us now isn't it? I also don't think 2 games as a sophomore in college necessarily shows what he is going to be like without a PG in the pros. He still has a lot of maturing to do, but his progress from what I saw from him his freshman year to his sophomore year was solid. I like his potential
• wes_mantooth

  

  Pick6;1191316 wrote:I agree. The only arguments I'm seeing for Barnes though are numbers,however those really aren't making him look better than other prospects. I'm not some diehard UNC fan, but what I have watched of them he seemed more of a spot up shooter...I want somebody who can create.

  I don't know what to think...I was sold on MKG until someone on here said he is a 20% jumpshooter...that is scary.
• Midstate01

  

  wes_mantooth;1191319 wrote:I don't know what to think...I was sold on MKG until someone on here said he is a 20% jumpshooter...that is scary.

  
  Agreed. Now I'm waiting to see how the draft workouts go. Maybe lamb or Barnes would be better.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  KR1245;1191300 wrote:Big SF from Iowa State, he's listed at 6'8 270
  
  I was only able to watch him a few times but those games were against big time teams. I like guys that get up and play well against the the best
  
  In his two games against KU he went for 18 & 17 and 18 & 9
  He put up 23 & 9 vs Kentucky in the toruney.

  I agree, I'm interested. He going to slip into the 2nd?
• ohiobucks1

  

  Pick6;1191316 wrote:I agree. The only arguments I'm seeing for Barnes though are numbers,however those really aren't making him look better than other prospects. I'm not some diehard UNC fan, but what I have watched of them he seemed more of a spot up shooter...I want somebody who can create.

  I'm not all knowing either by any means but every time I watched he showed more than just a "spot up shooter". He is very good at slashing. Much better than Lamb IMO
• Pick6

  

  wes_mantooth;1191319 wrote:I don't know what to think...I was sold on MKG until someone on here said he is a 20% jumpshooter...that is scary.

  Think Bradley Beal.
  
  According to ESPN...MKG shot 49%. I think the poster's catch was that layups or whatever inflated his % and he shoots 20% in actual jump shooting. My argument is a guard made nearly 50% of his shots taken. Why does it matter if they are layups or jump shots?
• KR1245

  

  Commander of Awesome;1191331 wrote:I agree, I'm interested. He going to slip into the 2nd?

  doubtful. There's a chance he might be there at 24 though
• ohiobucks1

  

  Pick6;1191339 wrote:Think Bradley Beal.
  
  According to ESPN...MKG shot 49%. I think the poster's catch was that layups or whatever inflated his % and he shoots 20% in actual jump shooting. My argument is a guard made nearly 50% of his shots taken. Why does it matter if they are layups or jump shots?

  My guess is the answer you will hear most is that in the pros guards aren't going to be able to physically dominate like MKG did at UK
• KR1245

  

  Who knows what the hell is going to happen. All of these guys have question marks.
  
  Can Barnes create his own shot?
  Will Beals size be a problem?
  Can MKG hit a jumper?
  Will Drummond be Lasagna Flop 2.0?
• Pick6

  

  From the end of last season, I was.. Davis if we get #1, if not Beal or MKG. Nothing has happened since then, so my opinion hasn't changed.
  
  I will be looking forward to workouts, though.
• KR1245

  

  Pick6;1191355 wrote:From the end of last season, I was.. Davis if we get #1, if not Beal or MKG. Nothing has happened since then, so my opinion hasn't changed.
  
  I will be looking forward to workouts, though.

  That's where I'm at.
  
  I would rank MKG 2 and Beal 3
• ohiobucks1

  

  CLEVELAND -- Go ahead. Bet against MKG
  Call him offensively challenged. Dissect his shooting hitch. Wring your hands over his ballhandling.
  Wonder aloud about the sanity of using the No. 2 pick on a player with his weaknesses.
  The NBA draft is a game of labels, and Kidd-Gilchrist doesn't fit many of the ones NBA scouts and draft analysts love to use on top-tier picks. But be careful.
  Ask anyone who knows anything about basketball what label should adorn Michael Kidd-Gilchrist as he prepares for the 2012 NBA draft and they all, to a man, say the same thing.
  Winner.
  "Michael is a flat-out winner," his head coach John Calipari said. "Not because he's one of the nation's best scorers but because of his intangibles, intensity and passion."
  Kidd-Gilchrist won a high school state championship as a 15-year-old sophomore. As a 16-year-old, he took home a gold medal as part of Team USA in the FIBA Under-17 World Championships. As an 18-year-old freshman, he was the heart and soul of a Kentucky Wildcats team that won the national championship in April.
  In a day and age when NBA scouts, GMs and stat geeks try to quantify everything -- are labels such as "winner" or "intangibles" worthy of the same lofty draft status we attach to "long," "upside" or "scoring machine"? -- we are about to find out.
  Kidd-Gilchrist's numbers certainly won't wow you. Scorer won't work as a label. He averaged 11.9 ppg his freshman year. Neither will shooter. He shot 25 percent from 3. He's worn the defender label well the past few years, but he averaged just one block and one steal per game at Kentucky this year. Efficient? His college PER was middling at best.
  Neither will Kidd-Gilchrist's vitals: He measured a little under 6-foot-7 with an above-average 6-11 wingspan. Neither will give him a major advantage at the next level. While he's a very good athlete, he's not exactly elite, either.
  And neither will his comps aid his stock. Ron Artest without the drama. All very good NBA players. Not All-Stars. Not No. 2 picks in the draft.
  Why would anyone take Kidd-Gilchrist with a high lottery pick when he doesn't check off the typical boxes we associate with elite draft picks?
  "All of my scouts love him," one GM said. "Actually, 'love' isn't a strong enough word. Our coaches, when they watch him play, beg me to go get him. I've stood back for the past few months saying, 'What about his jump shot?' 'Can he create his own shot?' 'Is he big enough to thrive in the NBA?' I've given up. I love him now more than they do. He has the ability to dramatically affect a game with and without the ball in his hands. Whenever he steps on or off the court, everything changes. He's a winner. He's a leader. That motor he has, the toughness he has, the intensity that he has … those are NBA skills, too."
  Winner. Leadership. Motor. Toughness. Intensity. They all pop when you see him on the court. He also is a terrific defender who can guard multiple positions. And while he struggled as a jump-shooter, he was a very effective scorer in transition and cutting to the basket. Scouts who love him also point out that he's the youngest player in the draft. Oh, and a few old-timers say that MKG's best pro comparison may be another versatile forward named Scottie Pippen. But that's not why a team will use a high draft pick on Kidd-Gilchrist.
  
  
  
  In all my years of covering the draft, I've never scouted a player quite like him. There's an "X factor" about him that you just have to experience.
  The X factor apparently translates into workouts. Kidd-Gilchrist roared through a workout in Cleveland on Friday. The toughness and intensity were all there. So was that hitchy jump shot. But on Friday, at least it was going in. Kidd-Gilchrist shot about 85 percent from the field in the shooting drills. He's also doing a lot of work on his ball handling.
  Shooting well in a workout doesn't mean you can shoot in a game. No NBA scout will be fooled by a good shooting day in a workout, especially with MKG's unorthodox shooting form. It's the effort that goes into fixing his jump shot that will impress them.
  Trainer Jerry Powell, breathing heavily from the workout, sat down on the court afterward and summed it up. "With most of my clients, my job is to push them. I think Gillie pushes me. He brings it seven days a week. He brings it to every drill. Every part of the workout. He only has one speed and it's 'Go.'"
  Kidd-Gilchrist's legendary work ethic is part of the reason NBA teams are less concerned with some of the weaknesses in his game.
  "He clearly needs to improve as a shooter, and he needs to tighten his handle," one NBA scout told ESPN.com. "But I've never been more confident that he'll improve those things than I am with Kidd-Gilchrist. To me, he was the most improved player in college basketball last year. He made major strides from what I saw in high school. He's so committed to his game, he's going to put the sweat equity into it. I totally believe that, and it's why I'm comfortable saying he's worthy of the second pick in the draft and that he's going to be an All-Star someday. And more important to him, I think, he's going to win a championship some day."
  Right now, the next championship seems miles away.
  Kidd-Gilchrist is miffed by most of the draft process. He told me he was shocked when we put him at No. 3 on our Big Board in late June. He asked me Friday whether he was really going to be the second pick in the draft. Workouts like this are a bit foreign to him.
  He's anxious to get back to doing what he loves -- playing basketball. Like most top prospects, he's being held out of 5-on-5 pickup games to keep him injury-free during the process. It's the longest basketball drought he's ever experienced, and it's driving him crazy.
  "I miss it," he says. "I just love to play. Basketball is my life. The training is good and I feel like it's helping me. But I'm itching to play a game."
  He's also anxious about who will draft him. Unlike players who care about market size, endorsements, the weather or proximity to family or friends, Kidd-Gilchrist has just one concern.
  Winning.
  "I know I don't want to go to a team that's going to lose," Kidd-Gilchrist said. "I don't care about that other stuff. I just want to win. I've won my whole life. That's what fuels me. Drives me. I can't imagine what it feels like to lose all those games."
  
  
  
  He's about to find out. The Bobcats, one of the worst teams in NBA history, own the second pick and are interested. It would be a tough fit. While Kidd-Gilchrist is an elite player, he's not the type of guy who carries a team on his shoulders by himself. With a dearth of talent on the roster, it's going to be a pretty slow road back to the playoffs.
  The Wizards are in a much better position and would likely benefit from the leadership and toughness he brings to the table. Playing with John Wall and Neneshould make them dangerous.
  But if there's a team that fits Kidd-Gilchrist's game, it's the Cavs. With Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson,Anderson Varejao, the 24th pick, two picks in the early second round and cap space, they are a team on the rise. It also doesn't hurt that Irving, Kidd-Gilchrist's former teammate in high school, is a close friend.
  For the Cavs to get their hands on him one of two scenarios will have to happen. The first is that the Bobcats opt to go with a power forward and takeThomas Robinson, and then the Wizards decide to grab Bradley Beal instead of Kidd-Gilchrist. That's possible, though the odds are stacked against it.
  The other scenario is for the Cavs to package the No. 4 pick and either their 24th pick or their two seconds to move up two spots to get Kidd-Gilchrist. For a team like the Bobcats that need lots of assets, it might be worth it.
  For Kidd-Gilchrist, it would be a chance to win some basketball games and maybe, just maybe, turn owner Dan Gilbert into a prophet.
  Two summers ago, Gilbert, in a rant after losing LeBron James to the Miami Heat, proclaimed in an email to season-ticket holders: "I personally guarantee that the Cleveland Cavaliers will win an NBA championship before the self-titled former 'King' wins one."
  Other than Anthony Davis, the only player in this draft who could plausibly make that happen is Kidd-Gilchrist.
  So call him offensively challenged. Dissect his hitch. Wring your hands over his ballhandling.
  Me? I'm not betting against Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.
• wes_mantooth

  

  Pick6;1191339 wrote:Think Bradley Beal.
  
  According to ESPN...MKG shot 49%. I think the poster's catch was that layups or whatever inflated his % and he shoots 20% in actual jump shooting. My argument is a guard made nearly 50% of his shots taken. Why does it matter if they are layups or jump shots?

  i guess I just question if he will be able to get into the lane as much in the NBA...against better athletes every night. I am not saying I wouldn't want him...it just really caught me by surprise
• Wooball

  

  Commander of Awesome;1191331 wrote:I agree, I'm interested. He going to slip into the 2nd?

  Because of his off-the-court issues it is tough to say where he will go. Mock's are all over the board with him. I've heard rumors of teams 7-10 that may be interested in him, but I'd be shocked for him to go that high. See his draft video. Probably would be worth the risk at the end of round 1:
  
  [video=youtube;usQJQi3IiE0][/video]
• ohiobucks1

  

  ^^^
  
  Saw somewhere that he has big anxiety issues which are turning people off from him... Isn't there medication for that lol
• hoops23

  

  Pick6;1191339 wrote:Think Bradley Beal.
  
  According to ESPN...MKG shot 49%. I think the poster's catch was that layups or whatever inflated his % and he shoots 20% in actual jump shooting. My argument is a guard made nearly 50% of his shots taken. Why does it matter if they are layups or jump shots?

  Because in the NBA you want a guy who can do both, especially of you're picking top 5. MKG was a horrible jump shooter and almost as bad as a ball handler. How's he breaking his guy down in te NBA if he can't dribble or shoot? UK had several fastbreaks a game and MKG lived on the break. He's a fantastic finisher, rebounder and defender, but he didn't show the elite ball handling or scoring. He could be Getald Wallace 2.0 or bottom out as a guy like Tony Allen.
  
  20% is a BAD number.
• Mulva

  

  ohiobucks1;1191332 wrote:I'm not all knowing either by any means but every time I watched he showed more than just a "spot up shooter". He is very good at slashing. Much better than Lamb IMO

  Lamb is better off the ball than Barnes could ever dream of being. Probably a better defender too because of his ridiculous wingspan.
• wes_mantooth

  

  hoops23;1191397 wrote:Because in the NBA you want a guy who can do both, especially of you're picking top 5. MKG was a horrible jump shooter and almost as bad as a ball handler. How's he breaking his guy down in te NBA if he can't dribble or shoot? UK had several fastbreaks a game and MKG lived on the break. He's a fantastic finisher, rebounder and defender, but he didn't show the elite ball handling or scoring. He could be Getald Wallace 2.0 or bottom out as a guy like Tony Allen.
  
  20% is a BAD number.

  OR he might develop a solid jumper...it is just such a crapshoot. I don't know how many of you followed Lebron in high school, but his shot was absolute garbage, but now it is very improved for the first 3 quarters of ballgames.
• hoops23

  

  wes_mantooth;1191445 wrote:OR he might develop a solid jumper...it is just such a crapshoot. I don't know how many of you followed Lebron in high school, but his shot was absolute garbage, but now it is very improved for the first 3 quarters of ballgames.

  Very true. By all accounts he's a good kid and a very hard worker...
  
  I'm not opposed to drafting him, but he has his cons as well.