Cleveland Cavaliers 11-12 season thread
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Y-Town Steelhound
Yep, don't let things like facts get in the way...robj55;1078592 wrote:Lebron gets almost 8 assists a game from the sf position, Magic was a pg and Lebron's vision is just as good as Magic's. Magic is not a better shooter than Lebron, that is a joke, I don't care what FG% says. Lebron is a better ball handler, scorer and defender by far. IMO he is just as versatile as well.
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Y-Town Steelhound
Also you said Magic did NOTHING better than LeBron. So what's your excuse again for free throw percentage?
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robj55
Of course they matter, but did you ever see Magic shoot the ball, ugly and was never a great shooter. Also, NBA today>>NBA of the 80's.Heretic;1078598 wrote:Ah, stats don't matter...just a fan's love of one player. Got you. -
hoops23
LOL. Just stop this nonsense.robj55;1078588 wrote:He won them by himself? Didn't know the NBA was a one on one league, interesting.
The NBA isn't a 1-on-1 league, but 1 man can make a hell of a difference... (See DWade in the 2006 Finals for a recent example)
Magic made the biggest differences when it mattered most. He didn't shy away from the pressure... He didn't continually lay eggs in the 4th quarter of NBA Finals games like LeBron has in seemingly all of his.
LeBron surrounded himself with two elite players and they still failed. -
Commander of Awesome
lol talk about faith. Belief despite the facts starring you in the face. Fairly moronic.robj55;1078592 wrote: Magic is not a better shooter than Lebron, that is a joke, I don't care what FG% says.
Magic was a top 3 passer of all time, he is a better distributor than LBJ, just the facts. -
robj55
You can have the ft percentage, Magic was 84% which is great, Lebron is 75%.Y-Town Steelhound;1078602 wrote:Also you said Magic did NOTHING better than LeBron. So what's your excuse again for free throw percentage? -
hoops23
No. NBA 80's >> NBA today. If not for Magic and Bird, then MJ, the NBA is probably dead.robj55;1078603 wrote:Of course they matter, but did you ever see Magic shoot the ball, ugly and was never a great shooter. Also, NBA today>>NBA of the 80's.
The 80's turned out to be one of the better eras of NBA basketball. And, teams were allowed to play PHYSICAL defense. It certainly didn't cater to the offensive player like it does now. -
lhslep134
Elite PG. Look what happened last year in the playoffs between the Lakers and the Hornets. With David West out, the Hornets had no business competing in that series, let alone winning 2 games. Chris Paul singlehandedly kept them in the series.Y-Town Steelhound;1078593 wrote:That's true, which begs the question is would you rather have an elite wing or (potentially) elite point guard as the foundation of your team?
But that doesn't mean I'd take Kyrie over Lebron. I would, however, take Chris Paul over Lebron. -
robj55
Dude you're probably like 23 and never saw Magic play in these "clutch" moments.hoops23;1078604 wrote:LOL. Just stop this nonsense.
The NBA isn't a 1-on-1 league, but 1 man can make a hell of a difference... (See DWade in the 2006 Finals for a recent example)
Magic made the biggest differences when it mattered most. He didn't shy away from the pressure... He didn't continually lay eggs in the 4th quarter of NBA Finals games like LeBron has in seemingly all of his.
LeBron surrounded himself with two elite players and they still failed. -
hoops23
repsCommander of Awesome;1078582 wrote:Win titles. -
robj55
Bigger, faster, stronger, more sophisticated defenses and scouting.hoops23;1078609 wrote:No. NBA 80's >> NBA today. If not for Magic and Bird, then MJ, the NBA is probably dead.
The 80's turned out to be one of the better eras of NBA basketball. And, teams were allowed to play PHYSICAL defense. It certainly didn't cater to the offensive player like it does now. -
Y-Town Steelhound
Not to mention the hand checking rules made it a lot harder to score in the lane back then than it is today. Back then you could beat guys up a bit more when they drove, now you touch someone and it's a foul. Also consider the quality of centers back then compared to now and it's not even close. Right now you have 1 elite center in Dwight Howard...back then you had guys like Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon, etc...hoops23;1078609 wrote:No. NBA 80's >> NBA today. If not for Magic and Bird, then MJ, the NBA is probably dead.
The 80's turned out to be one of the better eras of NBA basketball. And, teams were allowed to play PHYSICAL defense. It certainly didn't cater to the offensive player like it does now. -
robj55
They are both great passers.Commander of Awesome;1078605 wrote:lol talk about faith. Belief despite the facts starring you in the face. Fairly moronic.
Magic was a top 3 passer of all time, he is a better distributor than LBJ, just the facts. -
Commander of Awesome
That's an opinion again. Depends on what you want. The 80s NBA ball was much tougher, better defense. If you want tough defensive play the 80s are where its at. You want high flying offensive ball, than today's game is for you. I'm not sure which I prefer, though I do get annoyed at players like Amare or Melo being called elite players because they don't play defense at all. I'll never call a player who doesn't give effort on both sides of the floor elite players.robj55;1078603 wrote:Of course they matter, but did you ever see Magic shoot the ball, ugly and was never a great shooter. Also, NBA today>>NBA of the 80's.
LBJ tends to favor his jumper when he is defended physically. Thus I can make the argument that LBJ wouldn't be as highly thought of if he played in the 80s. Highly doubt he'd put up similar numbers. Magic would be even better in today's modern NBA. -
hoops23
I'm 25, actually, and have seen Magic because I watch old school games.robj55;1078611 wrote:Dude you're probably like 23 and never saw Magic play in these "clutch" moments.
So yes, I can have an opinion on it. Besides, you can always just look at stats in those said games to give you a rough guess on who was better in big game scenarios. -
Y-Town Steelhound
That's fair. Do you understand what my point is (not saying you have to agree with it)? By saying Kyrie I'm not saying he's the better player now or ever, I'm simply stating that taking Kyrie:lhslep134;1078610 wrote:Elite PG. Look what happened last year in the playoffs between the Lakers and the Hornets. With David West out, the Hornets had no business competing in that series, let alone winning 2 games. Chris Paul singlehandedly kept them in the series.
But that doesn't mean I'd take Kyrie over Lebron. I would, however, take Chris Paul over Lebron.
1. Gives me a young, talented player at perhaps THE key position (PG)
2. Gives me a longer window of opportunity to both win a title and have said player playing at an elite level
3. Gives me more options in terms of who I can surround him with because Kyrie doesn't need to be the primary scorer in the offense.
That is all... -
Commander of Awesome
Wrong, he was 85% shooting 90% twice. His worst FT% year was 76%, which is still better than LBJ.robj55;1078606 wrote:You can have the ft percentage, Magic was 84% which is great, Lebron is 75%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html
also LBJ is a 74% FT shooter. His worst season he was under 70%. Pretty pattetic for "the better shooter".
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html -
hoops23
Yes, man has evolved so much in the last 30 years. I mean, I'm like 2.5 times as tall, fast, and strong as my father...robj55;1078614 wrote:Bigger, faster, stronger, more sophisticated defenses and scouting. -
robj55
The way I look at it is that there is more talent in today's game and far superior athletes. I know the 80's was tougher defensively because of the rules. But you saying Magic would be better in today's game is an opinion, just as mine was.Commander of Awesome;1078619 wrote:That's an opinion again. Depends on what you want. The 80s NBA ball was much tougher, better defense. If you want tough defensive play the 80s are where its at. You want high flying offensive ball, than today's game is for you. I'm not sure which I prefer, though I do get annoyed at players like Amare or Melo being called elite players because they don't play defense at all. I'll never call a player who doesn't give effort on both sides of the floor elite players.
LBJ tends to favor his jumper when he is defended physically. Thus I can make the argument that LBJ wouldn't be as highly thought of if he played in the 80s. Highly doubt he'd put up similar numbers. Magic would be even better in today's modern NBA. -
robj55
You're delusional if you don't think the athletes are superior today.hoops23;1078625 wrote:Yes, man has evolved so much in the last 30 years. I mean, I'm like 2.5 times as tall, fast, and strong as my father... -
sleeper
This is a tired argument. The 80's players would be bench warmers in today's game. These kids are playing basketball competitively from age 5 and are getting an extra 2-3 years earlier experience in the NBA than the 80's players too.
Magic would ride the bench on the Cavs this year. -
hoops23
What does that have to do with anything? You're pulling shit out of your ass...robj55;1078628 wrote:You're delusional if you don't think the athletes are superior today.
If athletes are superior today then it's all fair game, is it not? Magic played in the 80's with athletes similar to him (though Magic was a freak) and LBJ is playing in today's game with athletes similar to him (though he is a freak as well)...
That point is seriously stupid. -
robj55
So we base shooting on free throw shooting now? Lebron is a far better jump shooter than Magic ever was and is one of the best finishers around the rim this game has ever seen. 85 is Magic's career%. Magic is 19,11, and 7 for his career. Lebron is 27,7 and 7.Commander of Awesome;1078624 wrote:Wrong, he was 85% shooting 90% twice. His worst FT% year was 76%, which is still better than LBJ.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html
also LBJ is a 74% FT shooter. His worst season he was under 70%. Pretty pattetic for "the better shooter".
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html -
Y-Town Steelhound
Ok, but you can also play the other side of that argument. I would argue if the 80s players had access to the supplements, workouts, equipment (shoes, uniforms), travel amenities, and other technological advantages today's athlete has that they would pretty much close that gap. It's all relative.robj55;1078628 wrote:You're delusional if you don't think the athletes are superior today. -
Heretic
To counterpoint that argument: If LeBron was a player in that era, he wouldn't have access to all the physical training techniques and improvements that players of today had. And if Magic played now, he would have access to all that.robj55;1078627 wrote:The way I look at it is that there is more talent in today's game and far superior athletes. I know the 80's was tougher defensively because of the rules. But you saying Magic would be better in today's game is an opinion, just as mine was.
So I don't know that you can say a player is better because of their era, as it ignores the fact that everyone in a particular era is playing by the same rules and if they were transplanted to another era, they'd be using the techniques of that era.