Ohio Chatter DEV

reclegend22

Head of Massachussetts state police:

Alben says police are convinced that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has left the neighborhood of Watertown, Massachusetts.

"He abandoned a car that was used in the car chase," Alben said. But he did not flee in a vehicle. "He did it on foot. He fled on foot. I don't know where he went specifically after that."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/19/boston-mit-police-dead-watertown

reclegend22

I think we are arguing over semantics at this point. And it's pointless.

OSH

His brother then drove over him, broke through police barricades, then ditched the vehicle and fled on foot into Watertown.

Reference

The police chief, Edward Deveau, describes how cops nearly apprehended the older suspect, and were placing handcuffs on him in the middle of the street Thursday night, when the younger suspect came at officers in a carjacked SUV. The cops were able “to dive out of the way,” and the younger suspect then continued to drive directly over his brother and dragging him through the street.

Reference

The younger suspect eventually dumped the SUV and ran into the darkness of the night, according to the police chief. It took nearly 18 hours and massive manhunt to find the younger suspect.

Reference

Tamerlan Tsarnaev was in the process of being handcuffed by two or three officers when his younger brother, 19-year-old Dzhokhar, jumped behind the wheel of a black SUV the two hand allegedly carjacked earlier and barreled toward the group.

Reference

Lemme guess, the 10,000 officers still shoulda stopped him?

We had just finished a shift, so two off-duty officers who were on their way home heard the call, so I have 6 police officers in this very tight area engaged in gun fighting. We estimate there was over 200 shots fired over a 5 to 10 minute period.

Reference

it was a very special situation, one of them yells “look out” and here comes the black SUV, the car-jacked car directly at them. They dive out of the way and he runs over his brother and drags him a short distance down the street…

Reference

OSH

reclegend22;1430816 wrote:I think we are arguing over semantics at this point. And it's pointless.

No, what is pointless is you continuously criticizing the agencies in their handling of the situation.

You basically have no idea how it was handled. You have no idea how to set up a perimeter and get the job done properly. You have no idea what it is like to be in a shootout, explosives being thrown at you, and then an SUV being driven at you.

You should be applauding these guys for doing the job they sought out to do...protecting the lives of the people in greater-Boston. They did it. No one else was harmed in the hours of the manhunt. Thankfully. Without the help of identifiers, the perps were apprehended (or killed) much quicker than many people expected. Thanks to Jeff Bauman, the subjects were identified and quickly tracked down.

Please, either start being a law enforcement consultant or just quit criticizing these public servants until the final reports come out and they potentially identify where some protocols could have been different.

reclegend22

OSH;1430817 wrote:Reference

Reference

Reference

Reference

Lemme guess, the 10,000 officers still shoulda stopped him?

Reference

Reference

So, all that it takes to evade six police officers who have three or four squad cars and six guns between them is to hop in a car and barrel through them? Maybe I will go out and rob a bank tonight. Sounds like the getaway will be a surefire thing as long as I'm in an SUV.

And do not say that these policeman weren't prepared for explosives being tossed at them. A terror bomber who just committed the worst act of terrorism in our country in 12 years had been on the loose in Boston for four days.

OSH

reclegend22;1430820 wrote:So, all that it takes to evade six police officers who have three or four squad cars and six guns between them is to hop in a car and barrel through them? Maybe I will go out and rob a bank tonight. Sounds like the getaway will be a surefire thing as long as I'm in an SUV.

And do not say that these policeman weren't prepared for explosives being tossed at them. A terror bomber who just committed the worst act of terrorism in our country in 12 years had been on the loose in Boston for four days.

You seriously won't quit thinking you know how to operate it will you?

You have been wrong on three extremely key instances: 1) the 2-day or 18-22 hour ordeal; 2) the SUV getaway or foot getaway; and 3) 10,000 police officers or 6 police officers in the shootout. And you think that these 6 officers, who were in the midst of a shootout with two individuals -- one being 5-10 feet away -- will be prepared for explosives and an SUV being driven at them? How exactly does an individual prepare or train for an SUV being driven at you? Can you instruct that course for me? You have no idea where the squad cars, officers, SUV, suspects, etc. were in the shootout. There's reports that say there were two vehicles that the suspects had, so that throws another kink in your foolproof plan.

Not every police department has a bomb squad or bomb protection or explosive-proof armor with them. I think I even read where 2 off-duty officers were nearby and came to help out. I am sure most off-duty cops walk around prepared for explosives and such.

Give it up. I hate seeing personal attacks on a message board, but you have a really sad life if you continue to criticize how this situation was handled. ZERO people killed once the suspects were identified and chased, but yet the police sucked when it came to a perimeter and manhunt. Unfortunately, the MIT campus officer lost his life but since there was a terror bomber loose, I am sure you think he should've been prepared too...

Mulva

Sigh. I really tried to stay away, but your argument is just so god damn stupid.

“We estimate that over 200 shots were fired over a five-to-10 minute period,” Devau said, adding that the brothers also hurled a pressure cooker bomb and other homemade explosives.”We found a pressure cooker embedded in a car down the street” after it caused “a major explosion during this gunfight,” Devau said.

5 to 10 minutes. They either failed to get enough law enforcement to establish a reasonable perimeter, or the perimeter they established was breached.

Two homemade grenades exploded and two others failed to go off. Another device was found in an abandoned car, he said. Devau told how Tamerlan Tsarnaev suddenly emerged “and just starts walking down the street shooting at our police officers trying to get closer.”

When the suspected bomber ran out of ammunition, two or three police overpowered him and were trying to handcuff him when the other brother drove the carjacked black Mercedes at them, said the police chief. “One of them yells ‘look out,” said Devau. “They dive out of the way and he runs over his brother and drags him a short distance down the street.”

I'm sorry, but handcuffing a suspect in the middle of the street with a suspect still in the vehicle doesn't make me any more impressed with the cops.

Dzhokhar drove off amid more gunfire, but two or three streets down, “he dumps the car and runs into the darkness in the streets. Then we lost contact with him,” said Devau.

2 or 3 streets. After a 5-10 minute gun battle, they lost a wounded suspect on foot after 2-3 streets. Sorry OSH, not buying your law enforcement ****-sucking. Thankfully it all worked out.

OSH

reclegend22;1430820 wrote:And do not say that these policeman weren't prepared for explosives being tossed at them. A terror bomber who just committed the worst act of terrorism in our country in 12 years had been on the loose in Boston for four days.

Yet another mistake in your argument.

Boston Marathon bombers were identified on April 18 at 5:20pm -- if we go by the news conference that broke the news. No names were told then, just the photos of the men. By 9pm on April 19, both men were apprehended (or killed).

So, it took around 28 hours from initial news conference with photo IDs of the suspects until they were taken care of. We also know it took roughly 18-22 hours from the first death to the apprehension of the second suspect. So, that gives us 6-10 hours of potential "unknown" of the suspects. I'd say the authorities did a pretty good job in justice to find two guys in 4.2+ million people and 4,600+ square miles.

reclegend22

First off, I was not wrong about the suspect fleeing on foot. You were. I openly stated that he ran over his brother. In fact, I've made mention of that multiple times in this thread before we even began this conversation. Like the police, I said that the suspect fled on foot right after running over his brother and the policeman. You made it sound like he left the scene in a white Bronco and sped down the interstate.

As for the one or two day thing. Who cares. For the last time. I know how long a day is. As I said before, I said two days to exaggerate my point. As for the number 10,000 cops and agents, I used that number because some other poster in this thread used it, but, again, that was more just a random big number to spotlight that there were a shit ton of cops and military personnel searching for this kid in small area.

OSH

Mulva;1430822 wrote:Sigh. I really tried to stay away, but your argument is just so god damn stupid.

5 to 10 minutes. They either failed to get enough law enforcement to establish a reasonable perimeter, or the perimeter they established was breached.

I'm sorry, but handcuffing a suspect in the middle of the street with a suspect still in the vehicle doesn't make me any more impressed with the cops.

2 or 3 streets. After a 5-10 minute gun battle, they lost a wounded suspect on foot after 2-3 streets. Sorry OSH, not buying your law enforcement ****-sucking. Thankfully it all worked out.

Like I said earlier, I hope you and reclegend22 are this country's savior in law enforcement. Please prevent another bombing, school shooting, theatre shooting, or car theft. You know how to handle the situation, no matter what.

And really, you want to criticize a perimeter in a 5-10 minute shootout?! There was no perimeter! They were in a frickin' gunfight with the suspects. When was the last time you were in a gunfight? Did you make sure you had everything figured out? Stupid question...I know you had it all figured out. You didn't even have to fire because you apprehended everyone beforehand because your perimeter was so flawless.

reclegend22

OSH;1430824 wrote:Yet another mistake in your argument.

Boston Marathon bombers were identified on April 18 at 5:20pm -- if we go by the news conference that broke the news. No names were told then, just the photos of the men. By 9pm on April 19, both men were apprehended (or killed).

So, it took around 28 hours from initial news conference with photo IDs of the suspects until they were taken care of. We also know it took roughly 18-22 hours from the first death to the apprehension of the second suspect. So, that gives us 6-10 hours of potential "unknown" of the suspects. I'd say the authorities did a pretty good job in justice to find two guys in 4.2+ million people and 4,600+ square miles.

WTF are you talking about. I never said that the police on the scene of the shootout knew who they were dealing with right off the bat. I said that, because there was a terror bomber on the loose, their guard should have been up and they should have been aware that the city of Boston was on a Code Bright Orange Red Purple Whatever with more explosions highly possible.

gut

Mulva;1430793 wrote:...not because of stellar police work...

Hang-on...They got a report of a stolen vehicle, possible bombing suspects....and they found and engaged those people quickly. That really is no small feat.

And you're acting like the guy was going to get away if not for this homeowner. That's a bit of a stretch, even without life-threatening injuries.

Maybe it wasn't a picture perfect takedown....But the fact they caught the guys and there was only 1 friendly hurt, because they ambushed him. I don't think you'll see too much finger pointing saying they screwed it up and should have done better.

OSH

reclegend22;1430826 wrote:First off, I was not wrong about the suspect fleeing on foot. You were. I openly stated that he ran over his brother. In fact, I've made mention of that multiple times in this thread before we even began this conversation. Like the police, I said that the suspect fled on foot right after running over his brother and the policeman. You made it sound like he left the scene in a white Bronco and sped down the interstate.

As for the one or two day thing. Who cares. For the last time. I know how long a day is. As I said before, I said two days to exaggerate my point. As for the number 10,000 cops and agents, I used that number because some other poster in this thread used it, but, again, that was more just a random big number to spotlight that there were a **** ton of cops and military personnel searching for this kid in small area.

Nothing I stated ever resembled a "left the scene...sped down the interstate." Everything I stated was Suspect 2 left the firefight in an SUV. That's what I said. He only fled on foot after the gunfight, after he fled in an SUV, and then tucked it away in the darkness.

Instead of exaggerating your "point," why don't you quit thinking you know how to do law enforcement better than Boston's finest? These guys were taken care of in 18-28 hours from being identified!

I am sure it is rather easy to dig up other instances where a "kid in a small area" evades authorities for longer. And those instances are less severe than this one. Please, why don't you (reclegend22) and Mulva go hang out with Ender to solve the country's law enforcement problems.

reclegend22

Anyway, everybody else in the thread, you can carry on now.

OSH

reclegend22;1430828 wrote:WTF are you talking about. I never said that the police on the scene of the shootout knew who they were dealing with right off the bat. I said that, because there was a terror bomber on the loose, their guard should have been up and they should have been aware that the city of Boston was on a Code Bright Orange Red Purple Whatever with more explosions highly possible.

So, now the MIT campus officer is a moron and can't do his job properly because his "guard should have been up" and "he should have been aware that the city of Boston...had more explosions highly possible?"

He died after the bombing. He knew who they were dealing with. The suspects were identified before he was killed. What a stupid cop. You truly are unbelievable.

reclegend22

OSH;1430832 wrote:So, now the MIT campus officer is a moron and can't do his job properly because his "guard should have been up" and "he should have been aware that the city of Boston...had more explosions highly possible?"

He died after the bombing. He knew who they were dealing with. The suspects were identified before he was killed. What a stupid cop. You truly are unbelievable.

Never once did I call him a stupid cop. Do not twist my words.

I do, however, believe that six trained professional policeman should have been able to stop a teenager from evading on foot.

reclegend22

I've stopped caring about whatever new way you are going to try to paint my words, though, so I'm done and will not respond to what comes next. So just save yourself the time.

Mulva

gut;1430829 wrote:Hang-on...They got a report of a stolen vehicle, possible bombing suspects....and they found and engaged those people quickly. That really is no small feat.

And you're acting like the guy was going to get away if not for this homeowner. That's a bit of a stretch, even without life-threatening injuries.

Maybe it wasn't a picture perfect takedown....But the fact they caught the guys and there was only 1 friendly hurt, because they ambushed him. I don't think you'll see too much finger pointing saying they screwed it up and should have done better.

Are we talking about the same thing here regarding the civilian? Suspect 2, in the boat, is what I was referring to. Not the stolen vehicle situation. Not at all bad police work to engage the suspects there. Just bad police work to let him escape. The "stellar police work" comment referred to the boat situation. Suspect was outside of the perimeter in that situation and wasn't going to be caught in the immediate future without the civilian calling the cops.

Also, again, the big concern I have is that he got away from that initial shootout. Not the pursuit thereafter (although I do find it a little troubling that the perimeter set wasn't big enough - I would think/hope that they would err on the side of caution in that situation and set the perimeter too large rather than too small, if anything).

OSH

reclegend22;1430833 wrote:Never once did I call him a stupid cop. Do not twist my words.

I do, however, believe that six trained professional policeman should have been able to stop a teenager from evading on foot.

I didn't twist your words, you claimed that police officers should be "on guard" and "aware of more explosions" since there was a terror bomber loose. The MIT cop was killed after the suspects were identified. He must not have been prepared if he died. So, in essence, he did not do his job.

And, yet again, you claim he "evaded on foot." It is clearly evident that he actually evaded in an SUV (from the shootout that killed Suspect 1) until he sensed he could run on foot. We only know he drove a few (2-3, or number unknown) streets until he ditched the SUV. We do not know how many cops chased him by car or cars. We do not know any route he may or may not have taken. How far is this? Oh, that we do not know either. But, according to you and Mulva, the perimeter (set by 6 cops, 2 possibly off-duty) should've been set better. Because they clearly knew they would come in contact with the suspect(s).

Oh, and I like how you tell me not to twist words -- only coming a few posts after you claim that I "sounded like" the suspect "fled in a Bronco and sped down the interstate." Strange...who is twisting?

Mulva

I thought this was pretty cool. In response to David Ortiz dropping the f-bomb today.

The FCC ‏<s>@</s>FCC <small class="time"> 9h </small> David Ortiz spoke from the heart at today's Red Sox game. I stand with Big Papi and the people of Boston - Julius

gut

Mulva;1430836 wrote:Are we talking about the same thing here regarding the civilian? Suspect 2, in the boat, is what I was referring to.

Yes, they were tipped off to the stolen vehicle by the hostage they temporarily held. Although I also saw that they viewed 1 of the suspects on the 7-11 security cam around where the officer was shot. My point was you're being very critical of 1 specific scene and are missing the big picture - they got an ID, they had both within 24 hours and no friendlies killed. That's pretty damn good police work, you can nitpick but that's job exceptionally well done.

Mulva;1430836 wrote: Also, again, the big concern I have is that he got away from that initial shootout. Not the pursuit thereafter (although I do find it a little troubling that the perimeter set wasn't big enough - I would think/hope that they would err on the side of caution in that situation and set the perimeter too large rather than too small, if anything).

I'll reserve judgement until I hear more details about the shootout. I am not of the same opinion as you that they can mobilize an army of officers to the quiet suburbs of Boston within minutes. Monday's events have little to do with that - you can't just hire more officers and buy more squad cars. You can put a few more cars out and maybe double patrols with overtime.

So until I hear otherwise I'm not criticizing him escaping the shootout. I don't think they had the resources at the scene to engage two HEAVILY armed suspects AND then also go form a perimeter in case they escape. I don't think in that situation that you would even sacrifice a gun to go block off the street.

OSH

reclegend22;1430835 wrote:I've stopped caring about whatever new way you are going to try to paint my words, though, so I'm done and will not respond to what comes next. So just save yourself the time.

GOOD! Because you sound ridiculous. Your claims and criticisms are too much. At least, I hope I did the job of shutting you up because many people are probably tired of your know-it-all attitude of law enforcement. I hope this thread can go back to positive contributions of information surrounding this whole tragedy.

Start up your own Law Enforcement 101 thread so you, Mulva, and Ender can inform the rest of the ignorant society (and law enforcement agencies) of proper protocol.

Mulva;1430836 wrote:Are we talking about the same thing here regarding the civilian? Suspect 2, in the boat, is what I was referring to. Not the stolen vehicle situation. Not at all bad police work to engage the suspects there. Just bad police work to let him escape. The "stellar police work" comment referred to the boat situation. Suspect was outside of the perimeter in that situation and wasn't going to be caught in the immediate future without the civilian calling the cops.

Also, again, the big concern I have is that he got away from that initial shootout. Not the pursuit thereafter (although I do find it a little troubling that the perimeter set wasn't big enough - I would think/hope that they would err on the side of caution in that situation and set the perimeter too large rather than too small, if anything).

It does suck he got away from the initial shootout. I agree with you there.

But, what perimeter will be set by 6 police officers (2 off-duty)? The MIT campus officer was shot 5+ miles away. How big of a perimeter should there be? When police come up on the suspects, how much time should the suspects give the [6] officers to set up a perimeter?

Time of events there: MIT campus officer was shot around April 18 10:30pm; police locate SUV around 1:30am on April 19 in Watertown; sometime around 2:00am Suspect 1 dies in the shootout; 4:30am has a statement that all Watertown residents remain indoors; 5:50am states that Suspect 2 is the surviving suspect from the shootout; and 8:45pm Suspect 2 is captured.

Mulva

gut;1430840 wrote:Yes, they were tipped off to the stolen vehicle by the hostage they temporarily held. Although I also saw that they viewed 1 of the suspects on the 7-11 security cam around where the officer was shot. My point was you're being very critical of 1 specific scene and are missing the big picture - they got an ID, they had both within 24 hours and no friendlies killed. That's pretty damn good police work, you can nitpick but that's job exceptionally well done

I don't think the answer is yes. I'm talking about the civilian finding suspect 2 bleeding in his boat. Not the guy who was carjacked. I'm not trying to criticize the response to the carjacking at all, and I feel terrible for the cop that was killed doing his job on patrol there.

gut

Also, some of the cops ran out of ammo in the shootout. How exactly are they supposed to pursue an armed suspect?

Que the "should have been carrying extra ammo" non-sequiter

gut

Mulva;1430842 wrote:I don't think the answer is yes. I'm talking about the civilian finding suspect 2 bleeding in his boat. Not the guy who was carjacked. I'm not trying to criticize the response to the carjacking at all, and I feel terrible for the cop that was killed doing his job on patrol there.

No, you're criticizing the job they did in capturing him. And you're hung up on this civilian - like I said, it's highly unlikely he was going anywhere, or getting far on foot even if he's not injured. He would have been spotted. It's not so much they lost him as he was pinned down, and suffering from life threatening injuries. You're whole "without the civilian..." argument is a strawman.

I'm saying from getting an initial tip on a stolen car, they had these guys within 24 hours. Forget all the other bullshit you're trying to debate - ID to Capture in less than 1 day. That's actually pretty damn tough to criticize.

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MIT Shooting/Bombing Suspect Manhunt - Suspect 1: DEAD, Suspect 2: In Custody