B1G 2012

• wildcats20

  

  se-alum;1404672 wrote:He wasn't close to the player that this suggests he was though.

  
  Still doesn't make him a long shot.
  
  Like I said. Just call it like it is. He hasn't panned out yet. And there is nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time with highly regarded recruits.
• se-alum

  

  wildcats20;1404680 wrote:Still doesn't make him a long shot.
  
  Like I said. Just call it like it is. He hasn't panned out yet. And there is nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time with highly regarded recruits.

  Oh, I know. I'm just saying a lot of project big men get high recruiting rankings, based on potential.
• vball10set

  wildcats20;1404651 wrote:Williams was a 4 star, top 100 player. He was not a long shot.

  wildcats20;1404657 wrote:That's fine but to say he was a long shot is 100% wrong.

  wildcats20;1404680 wrote:Still doesn't make him a long shot.
  
  Like I said. Just call it like it is. He hasn't panned out yet. And there is nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time with highly regarded recruits.

  Jesus Christ, I get it. I said long shot, and as you pointed out numerous times, I used the wrong terminology. Here you go: "He hasn't panned out yet" :rolleyes:
• Fly4Fun

  

  se-alum;1404683 wrote:Oh, I know. I'm just saying a lot of project big men get high recruiting rankings, based on potential.

  Mainly because there is only a limited amount of people that tall with athleticism. It's not necessarily based on their skill.
• reclegend22

  

  wildcats20;1404519 wrote:This team would not be in the tournament without Thomas, let alone a 2nd place finish in the B1G.

  To be fair, sleeper might be on to something regarding Thomas.
  
  I think Thomas is a great player for what he is -- a primetime scorer -- but it might be addition by subtraction next year if Ohio State is able to blend into more of a "team" with several guys that can be depended on to score, rather than just one. Duke last year, for example, might have lost 10 or 12 games without leading scorer Austin Rivers, and been in danger of missing the NCAA Tournament. But without him on the team this year, chucking up shots like he is playing in his own personal video game, Duke's returning players have developed into more of a collective unit. The ball movement and sharing is night and day compared to last year. Rivers was a black hole. No two ways around it. I think sleeper might be making that argument about Thomas.
• Fly4Fun

  

  reclegend22;1404987 wrote:To be fair, sleeper might be on to something regarding Thomas.
  
  I think Thomas is a great player for what he is -- a primetime scorer -- but it might be addition by subtraction next year if Ohio State is able to blend into more of a "team" with several guys that can be depended on to score, rather than just one. Duke last year, for example, might have lost 10 or 12 games without leading scorer Austin Rivers, and been in danger of missing the NCAA Tournament. But without him on the team this year, chucking up shots like he is playing in his own personal video game, Duke's returning players have developed into more of a collective unit. The ball movement and sharing is night and day compared to last year. Rivers was a black hole. No two ways around it. I think sleeper might be making that argument about Thomas.

  I agree that sometimes you can have someone that is just a chucker and this can lead to imbalances on offense, other guys not playing as hard at times on offense and defense. But I don't really see this out of OSU.
  
  For the most part they are all still really zoned in on defense, and Thomas has been pretty good about passing the ball if it isn't there for him unless the team is counting on him to score because no one else is.
• Prescott

  OSU does not have players who can score the ball like Curry, Kelly, and Plumlee. They need Thomas to do what he does, score the ball.Dan Dakich says it all of the time. Shooters shoot, rebounders rebound, and defenders defend.Basketball is not a democracy.
  
  If duke is more cohesive this year because of Rivers' absence maybe coach k should have had a talk with Austin about making his teammates better instead of shooting at every opportunity.Clearly, he had a green light.
• Heretic

  

  reclegend22;1404987 wrote:To be fair, sleeper might be on to something regarding Thomas.
  
  I think Thomas is a great player for what he is -- a primetime scorer -- but it might be addition by subtraction next year if Ohio State is able to blend into more of a "team" with several guys that can be depended on to score, rather than just one. Duke last year, for example, might have lost 10 or 12 games without leading scorer Austin Rivers, and been in danger of missing the NCAA Tournament. But without him on the team this year, chucking up shots like he is playing in his own personal video game, Duke's returning players have developed into more of a collective unit. The ball movement and sharing is night and day compared to last year. Rivers was a black hole. No two ways around it. I think sleeper might be making that argument about Thomas.

  I think the key to what you said, though, is the "several guys that can be depended on to score" part, as so far, Ohio State doesn't have that. Craft has been great recently, but during their worst period of the season, he seemed to be really fond of 2-9 (or similar) shooting lines; Smith is the kind of guy who'll go for 24 one day and 5 the next; none of their post players are consistent offensive threats; Scott and Thompson contribute a lot in different parts of the game, but neither is a consistent scorer...and so on.
  
  To me, Thomas is the difference between the team having 7 losses and the team probably being NIT bound this season. He's not perfect and he is a bit of a chucker, but he's been the only consistent offense-minded player on the floor much of the year.
• reclegend22

  

  I agree with all above. This year's Ohio State team is unique, because there really isn't any other available -- or at least reliable -- scoring outside of Thomas. That's why I added that caveat of "if Ohio State is able to blend into more of a "team" with several guys that can be depended on to score, rather than just one," then Ohio State might be better next year without Thomas. I think that is more to sleeper's point. I could be wrong, but I think he's looking ahead to Ohio State next season by presenting the idea that the Buckeyes would probably be even better without the ball-hoarding Thomas as long as other guys step up and develop their games.
  
  If that happens, then there is definitely the possiblity of that proving true. As great a scorer as Thomas is, he does not make any of his teammates better.
• Prescott

  reclegend22;1405070 wrote:I agree with all above. This year's Ohio State team is unique, because there really isn't any other available -- or at least reliable -- scoring outside of Thomas. That's why I added that caveat of "if Ohio State is able to blend into more of a "team" with several guys that can be depended on to score, rather than just one," then Ohio State might be better next year without Thomas. I think that is more to sleeper's point. I could be wrong, but I think he's looking ahead to Ohio State next season by presenting the idea that the Buckeyes would probably be even better without the ball-hoarding Thomas as long as other guys step up and develop their games.
  
  If that happens, then there is definitely the possiblity of that proving true. As great a scorer as Thomas is, he does not make any of his teammates better.

  First of all, Thomas absolutely makes his teammates better. His presence on the floor and the attention he draws makes their jobs easier, which makes them better. He had a great step through move and pass on a double team against Illinois that gave one his teammates an open 3-pointer.
  
  I don't agree with the premise that the current OSU roster will become a much better shooting team over the summer. At this point in their development they are pretty much what they are going to be as basketball players. Can the individual shooting improve? Sure, but not dramatically. If Matta doesn't find a reliable scorer for next year, the Buckeyes are in for a difficult season.
• reclegend22

  

  Prescott;1405097 wrote:He had a great step through move and pass on a double team against Illinois that gave one his teammates an open 3-pointer.

  And yet, he only has 2 assists in his last five games. That's 0.4 per game. A player who draws that much attention to himself should be able, as you say, to help make the job for his teammates easier by finding them in good scoring position through passing. Perhaps Thomas was absent on that day of basketball school.
  
  I do agree that he creates spacing and opens up the floor for the offense with his ability to shoot and drive. I also get that getting five or six assists per game on as poor a shooting team as Ohio State is tantamount to shooting deer with a squirt gun. You might be able to hit the deer, but it's not going to result in anything. But perhaps Thomas should work on using that attention he recieves to better set up his teammates in higher-percentage areas where they can score.
  
  The bottom line is that Thomas is not a creator, in the general sense. He's a scorer.
• se-alum

  

  Bottomline...saying this team would be better without Thomas is just foolish.
• sleeper

  

  se-alum;1405121 wrote:Bottomline...saying this team would be better without Thomas is just foolish.

  Watch how the team plays when Thomas is on the bench. You'll be impressed. :thumbup:
• Prescott

  reclegend22;1405105 wrote:And yet, he only has 2 assists in his last five games. That's 0.4 per game. A player who draws that much attention to himself should be able, as you say, to help make the job for his teammates easier by finding them in good scoring position through passing. Perhaps Thomas was absent on that day of basketball school.
  
  I do agree that he creates spacing and opens up the floor for the offense with his ability to shoot and drive. I also get that getting five or six assists per game on as poor a shooting team as Ohio State is tantamount to shooting deer with a squirt gun. You might be able to hit the deer, but it's not going to result in anything. But perhaps Thomas should work on using that attention he recieves to better set up his teammates in higher-percentage areas where they can score.
  
  The bottom line is that Thomas is not a creator, in the general sense. He's a scorer.

  You are contradicting yourself. First, you claim Thomas does not make his teammates better because he doesn't have enough assists, but you say you understand that getting assists on a poor shooting team isn't the easiest thing to do. Add this to the fact that OSU has ZERO inside presence and the lack of assists is easily explained.
• vball10set

  se-alum;1405121 wrote:Bottomline...saying this team would be better without Thomas is just foolish.

  /thread
• reclegend22

  

  se-alum;1405121 wrote:Bottomline...saying this team would be better without Thomas is just foolish.

  I'm certainly not saying Ohio State would be better this year. What I am saying is that if there are improvements over the off-season and other players step up their game offensively, Ohio State could be better without Thomas and the vortex he creates by being more of a team a year from now. I agree that he probably has to do that this year out of necessity. He's a great scorer and that's what he's been asked to provide for his offensively-inept teammates. I get that.
• se-alum

  

  reclegend22;1405190 wrote:I'm certainly not saying Ohio State would be better this year. What I am saying is that if there are improvements over the off-season and other players step up their game defensively, Ohio State could be better without Thomas and the vortex he creates by being more of a team a year from now. I agree that he probably has to do that this year out of necessity. He's a great scorer and that's what he's been asked to provide for his offensively-inept teammates. I get that.

  Players would have to make unbelievable strides in their offensive games for that to be true. Not saying it's out of the realm of possibility, but it certainly isn't anything you could count on.
• Prescott

  se-alum;1405206 wrote:Players would have to make unbelievable strides in their offensive games for that to be true. Not saying it's out of the realm of possibility, but it certainly isn't anything you could count on.

  Exactly!! Before the season started we all heard about the work that Craft had done to improve his shot.We were encouraged by the 6/9 effort versus Albany. That was fool's gold. In spite of his extensive work with Jent Craft's shooting numbers are way below last year's numbers and his freshman numbers.He has improved his free throw shooting, which is great, but his shooting percentages have not risen.
  
  It is possible for a player to improve his shooting, but not dramatically. It is true that if Sam Thompson turns into Jon Diebler or Shannon Scott turns into Jamar Butler the Buckeyes could be a better team next year.
• reclegend22

  

  Prescott;1405133 wrote:You are contradicting yourself. First, you claim Thomas does not make his teammates better because he doesn't have enough assists, but you say you understand that getting assists on a poor shooting team isn't the easiest thing to do. Add this to the fact that OSU has ZERO inside presence and the lack of assists is easily explained.

  I was simply pointing out the absurdity of you implying that Thomas is a great creator for his teammates based on the fact that he made a good chest pass for a three-pointer the other game. That play accounted for one of two assists over a five-game stretch. Let's not act as if he is openly trying to find his teammates. He is a great scorer, one of the best in the country, but he is a black hole.
  
  Take Erick Green, for example. He leads Va Tech and the nation in scoring. He also leads Va Tech in assists per game. Va Tech finished last place in the ACC this season so it's not like he is playing alongside shooters galore. Yet he actively searches for them and tries to get them involved, which has led to the Hokies, despite their poor overall record, being competitive in many games they should not be. Ohio State has better players than Virginia Tech. I wonder if Thomas really tried to create more for his teammates and put them in better positions to score if it would have a positive effect on the team and make his teammates better offensively as a result? Maybe, maybe not. But that's not the type of player he is. He is a shoot first, ask questions later player.
• Laley23

  

  Im just confused. Did anyone have an issue with Thomas his first 2 years? When he had capable players around him? I dont recall any. Well, his offense isnt any better now. Its the same. He has always had the ability to score 20+ a night in the B1G...all 3 years. So to say he cant be a team player, when he was for 2 years, is foolish. Its simple...no one else on this team can do anything, so Matta has told him he needs to get his 20 shots a game for them to win.
• Heretic

  

  Laley23;1405276 wrote:Im just confused. Did anyone have an issue with Thomas his first 2 years? When he had capable players around him? I dont recall any. Well, his offense isnt any better now. Its the same. He has always had the ability to score 20+ a night in the B1G...all 3 years. So to say he cant be a team player, when he was for 2 years, is foolish. Its simple...no one else on this team can do anything, so Matta has told him he needs to get his 20 shots a game for them to win.

  Well, as a freshman, I did, but that was because it seemed like every single time he touched the ball, he'd auto-shoot it. But he matured as far as shot selection went his sophomore year and has stayed the same offensive-minded player. Which the team needs, especially this year, considering how everyone else is either a defender first and foremost or an athlete who still needs to develop their actual game.
• Midstate01

  

  sleeper;1405130 wrote:Watch how the team plays when Thomas is on the bench. You'll be impressed. :thumbup:

  
  You mean when he goes there and 2 minutes later matta has him hurrying back in??
• Prescott

  reclegend22;1405241 wrote:I was simply pointing out the absurdity of you implying that Thomas is a great creator for his teammates based on the fact that he made a good chest pass for a three-pointer the other game. That play accounted for one of two assists over a five-game stretch. Let's not act as if he is openly trying to find his teammates. He is a great scorer, one of the best in the country, but he is a black hole.
  
  Take Erick Green, for example. He leads Va Tech and the nation in scoring. He also leads Va Tech in assists per game. Va Tech finished last place in the ACC this season so it's not like he is playing alongside shooters galore. Yet he actively searches for them and tries to get them involved, which has led to the Hokies, despite their poor overall record, being competitive in many games they should not be. Ohio State has better players than Virginia Tech. I wonder if Thomas really tried to create more for his teammates and put them in better positions to score if it would have a positive effect on the team and make his teammates better offensively as a result? Maybe, maybe not. But that's not the type of player he is. He is a shoot first, ask questions later player.

  I did not imply he was a great creator. My example showed that he draws defenders which opens up the game for his teammates. The ERic Green comparison isn't valid. He is a guard who has the ball in his hands 90% of the time and has a much better handle. Ridiculous comparison!!!!!
• se-alum

  

  Not sure how anyone could like Tom Crean.
  

  Indiana coach Tom Crean showed some testiness with a Michigan assistant as they shook hands after a game on Sunday, but it wasn’t his first incident during the final week of the Big Ten season.
  Crean also had some words for Ohio State guard Aaron Craft after the Buckeyes’ win in Bloomington on March 5. Craft won’t say what Crean said as they passed each other in line but did not deny it was something other than congratulations.
  “Heat of the battle,” Craft said this week. “Nothing crazy. Obviously, he was upset and we were excited, but I just kind of brushed it off and moved on. I was just really kind of focused on getting back with (my teammates). I wanted to jump up and down with those guys.”
  Craft said all he said to Crean as they passed was, “Good game, Coach. Good luck next week.”
  With 27.6 seconds left and Ohio State’s Deshaun Thomas at the free throw line, Craft and Crean were about 10 feet apart on the court and facing each other, but it was unclear whether either was saying anything to the other. Craft said no, that he was trying to steal a call from Crean to his players on the floor.
  “I do that every game ... especially late in the game. Try to figure out what they’re going to do,” he said.
  

• vball10set

  se-alum;1406113 wrote:Not sure how anyone could like Tom Crean.

  This just confirms what I've said all along, that he can coach, but he's a pos ahole. Period.