Ohio Chatter DEV

enigmaax

dat dude;491912 wrote:Sorry the SOS factor doesn't work in your favor. Hence, your easy dismissal.

But that's the whole point - TB breezed through easy competition before coming up like a lame duck in his last 3 games of the season. He was a beneficiary of an easy schedule. Have you seen Boeckman's numbers in the "games that had the biggest impact on his legacy?" They are terrible.

And, my point still stands. Line those stat lines up together along with the SOS fact and its a no brainer. Literally the only thing in your favor is the back-in NC game. The same game in which he was absolutely miserable.

First, I don't assume your SOS argument is sound just because you said it. You've said other things that were incorrect. So, you compare the schedules and show how it was that much better and that might be a discussion point.

And I strongly disagree with your assessment of the "back-in". OSU was the only major conference champion that season who only had one loss. It was a tough year for everyone around the country. It isn't backing in when you won your last game and ended up with the best record.

So here's what we've hammered out when comparing the two:

Boeckman is a better passer.
Pryor is a better runner.
Boeckman played for an NC.
Pryor won a Rose Bowl.
Both looked really bad in major losses.

Accurate? Am I leaving anything out?

dat dude

enigmaax;491920 wrote:First, I don't assume your SOS argument is sound just because you said it. You've said other things that were incorrect. So, you compare the schedules and show how it was that much better and that might be a discussion point.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin-archive.htm

Do some research.

What have I said that was incorrect?

OSU ended their season at 11-1 after the Michigan win and ranked #5 in the county. Two weeks later, the four teams above OSU lost. Therefore, OSU made the NC game. Strongly disagree with a "back-in?"

Slight edge to Boeckman as a passer.
Major edge to Pryor as a runner. Major.
Boeckman played miserable in the biggest game of his career.
Pryor played great (MVP) of the biggest game of his career.
Both have looked bad in major losses.

Accurate? Am I leaving anything out?

enigmaax

dat dude;491928 wrote:
OSU ended their season at 11-1 after the Michigan win and ranked #5 in the county. Two weeks later, the four teams above OSU lost. Therefore, OSU made the NC game. Strongly disagree with a "back-in?"

Yeah, disagree. The season was still ongoing. When Oklahoma lost its conference title game and still made the NC, they backed in. They went into it with a loss. When OSU was #5, they still had the same number of losses as the teams ahead of them. The season is the same number of games long for everyone. The fact that OSU finished its season before other teams doesn't cheapen the fact that they finished with less losses than everyone else in contention.

dat dude;491928 wrote:
Slight edge to Boeckman as a passer.
Major edge to Pryor as a runner. Major.

And maybe I just don't put as much stock into this because the overall impact AND his effectiveness as a runner in his major losses (against poor defenses) makes this point almost worthless. It doesn't matter if he runs for 300 yards in a win against Ohio if he can only come up with 10 yards in a loss to Purdue.

dat dude;491928 wrote:Boeckman played miserable in the biggest game of his career. Pryor played great (MVP) of the biggest game of his career.

Boeckman played well enough in his other games to make his biggest game for the National Championship.

And do you mean Pryor's biggest win? Because his biggest game might have been the USC game, until he lost that one. The fact that his performances relegated his biggest game to the Rose Bowl instead of a National Championship game cannot be ignored.

Manhattan Buckeye

I can't believe people are still arguing with enigmaax, it is obvious no one is going to change his mind (who apparently discounts the importance of the convincing Rose Bowl win - OSU wouldn't be ranked #2 right now if it wasn't for that) and if he hasn't figured out he's the only person claiming Boeckman is better than Pryor yet, he probably won't.

enigmaax

dat dude;491928 wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin-archive.htm

Do some research.

It was your point, not mine. I'm going to say that there was very little difference in the strength of schedule - too minimal for you to use to strengthen your argument. So, show me your numbers (I'm going to guess OSU had around the 50th toughest schedule in the country in both of those years and I'll bet there was less than a point difference in the overall Sagarin SOS rating).

bucks36

believer;491879 wrote:OK OK OK I modified the list. There isn't much difference among the QB's from about #9 down anyways!

Rex Kern

Troy Smith

Joe Germaine

Terrell Pryor

Art Schlichter

Cornelius Greene

Bobby Hoying

Stan Jackson

Craig Krenzel

Steve Bellisari

Kent Graham

Mike Tomczak

Greg Frey

Todd Boeckman

Kirk Herbstreit

Tom Tupa

Jim Karsatos

I refuse to take seriously any OSU QB list that has Stanley Jackson and Steve Bellisari ahead of ANY OSU quarterback. Do you not remember having to watch those guys play every Saturday!?!? Makes me cringe just bringing up their names. Cooper screwed up both of those situations. Jackson should have never seen the field with Germaine on the roster and Bellisari was one of the top HS safeties in the nation but Cooper promised him a shot at QB so he came to OSU and played QB like you would expect a safety to play QB!!

Mr. Russell

Justin Zwick should be half way up the list. If Hamby catches that pass, it is possible Smith doesn't play that entire year, maybe the next three.

jordo212000

Boeckman better than Pryor? haha. I really doubt that if you had the choice of the two, you'd take Boeckman. Boeckman had a nice start to his career but by the end it was like he caught whatever disease Rick Ankiel got in baseball. Boeckman had a mental block or something towards the end. He just didn't look like the same guy. I remember him saying in an interview that sometimes "it looks like more than 11 guys are out there on the field for opposing defenses" That tells me everything I need to know.

Tiernan

Mr. Russell;492076 wrote:Justin Zwick should be half way up the list. If Hamby catches that pass, it is possible Smith doesn't play that entire year, maybe the next three.

I've said this many times to many people. Justin Zwick should hunt Hamby down and kick him repeatedly in the balls. Troy Smith cost OSU not one but two NC's. Most undeserving Heisman winner ever. Yeah yeah yeah he beat Michigan three times...Zwick had so much more natural QB ability but the OL he was saddled with cost him an NFL career. His confidence was so shattered after playing behind the biggest faker in OSU history it destroyed the kid.

elbuckeye28

Tiernan;492130 wrote:I've said this many times to many people. Justin Zwick should hunt Hamby down and kick him repeatedly in the balls. Troy Smith cost OSU not one but two NC's. Most undeserving Heisman winner ever. Yeah yeah yeah he beat Michigan three times...Zwick had so much more natural QB ability but the OL he was saddled with cost him an NFL career. His confidence was so shattered after playing behind the biggest faker in OSU history it destroyed the kid.

Hmmmmmmm...Zwick, although an above average QB, was just not going to get it done, Hamby pass or not. He had plenty of opportunities over the years to prove he was better than Troy Smith, but he didn't.

wkfan

IMO, Pryor is behind as an overall......

Rex Kern
Troy Smith
Art Schlichter
Joe Germaine

and even-ish with.....

Craig Krenzel
Corny Greene

and better than all the rest.

FatHobbit

Manhattan Buckeye;491947 wrote:I can't believe people are still arguing with enigmaax, it is obvious no one is going to change his mind (who apparently discounts the importance of the convincing Rose Bowl win - OSU wouldn't be ranked #2 right now if it wasn't for that) and if he hasn't figured out he's the only person claiming Boeckman is better than Pryor yet, he probably won't.

IMHO it's really hard to compare QB's by looking just at stats, because they don't play on exactly the same teams with the same weapons. If Beanie doesn't get hurt agains YSU we have a completely different team against USC that year. Without any running game, USC pinned their ears back and rushed TB all day. Tressel put Pryor in and he didn't really do much better. (He did move the ball early, but USC adjusted and shut him down.)

I was looking back at the two quarterbacks and in 2007 Boeckman played in 3 big wins. (For the sake of argument I'm calling it a big win if the opposing team finished the year with 9 or more wins)

@ Penn State (ended the season 9-4) where he went 19/26 for 253 yards, 3 touchdowns and 1 interception
Wisconsin (ended the season 9-4) where he went 17/28 for 166 yards and 2 touchdowns
@Michigan (ended the season 9-4) where he went 7/13 for 50 yards with 1 interception

He also played in 3 big losses (2007 and 2008)

Illinois (ended the season 9-4) where he went 13/23 for 156 yards and 3 interceptions
LSU (ended the season 12-2) where he went 15/26 for 208 yards, 2 touchdowns and 2 interceptions
USC (ended the season 12-1) where he went for 84 yards and 2 interceptions

In the last 4 big games he played in, OSU went 1-3. TB turned the ball over 8 times and only had 4 TDs. And against Michigan it would seem that Tressel was losing confidence in him as we only threw the ball 13 times. (We also didn't have to throw it more because Michigan had no answer for Beanie and they couldn't move the ball.) He did get a chance to redeem himself against Texas, but we came up short again in that game. I'm not really counting that against him because he split time with Pryor and by that time he was no longer the starter.

Pryor on the other hand took the job from TB and I think he does get a pass on a lot of mistakes that year because he was a freshman. He did move the ball a little against USC, but for very long. So far I think Pryor played in 8 big wins and 4 big losses. (I'm going to count Miami although they could end up being over rated)

big wins
2008
Michigan State (ended the season 9-3) where he went 7/11 for 116 yards and 1 touchdown. He also ran 12 times for 72 yards and 1 touchdown
Northwestern (ended the season 9-4) where he went 9/14 for 197 yards and 3 touchdowns. He also ran 6 times for 33 yards

2009
Navy (ended the season 10-4) where he went 14/21 for 174 yards, 1 touchdown and 1 interception. He also ran 6 times for 30 yards and 1 touchdown
Wisconsin (ended the season 10-3) where he went 5/13 for 87 yards, 1 touchdown and 1 interception. He also ran 10 times for 35 yards (not really a great game for him statistically)
Penn State (ended the season 11-2) where he went 8/17 for 125 yards and 2 touchdowns. He also ran 5 times for 50 yards and 1 touchdown (not a great game, but he had 3 touchdowns)
Iowa (ended the season 11-2) where he went 14/17 for 93 yards. He also ran 8 times for 29 yards (really not a great game statistically)
Oregon (ended the season 10-3) where he went 23/37 for 266 yards, 2 touchdowns and 1 interception. He also ran 20 times for 72 yards.

2010
Miami where he went 12/27 for 233 yards and 1 touchdown while running 20 times for 113 yards and 1 touchdown.

Big losses
2008
Penn State where he went 16/25 for 226 yards and an interception while running 9 times for 6 yards (he also fumbled the ball away on what could have been the game winning drive)
Texas where he went 5/13 for 66 yards while running 15 times for 78 yards

2009
USC where he went 11/25 for 177 yards and 1 interception while running 21 times for 34 yards and 1 touchdown
Purdue where he went 17/31 for 221 yards, 1 touchdown and 2 interceptions while running 21 times for 34 yards and 1 touchdown. (This was his biggest loss IMO as Purdue was not really good)

To make a short story long TB started out hot and fizzled. He had some big games and he didn't really lose to bad teams, but he turned the ball over a lot and lost 3 out of 4 "big" games at the end. Pryor has had big wins and losses, but he has been young and appears to be learning from his mistakes. He also has the extra dimension of running the ball really well. Enigmax doesn't want to count that, but Pryor definitely can move the chains when he needs to. He also has won his last four "big" games, so right now he's on top of the world. (That will change quickly if we lose a game, even if he plays well.) It's really all about what he has done lately and Pryor seems to be improving every game.

FatHobbit

Tiernan;492130 wrote:Yeah yeah yeah he beat Michigan three times...

I went to OSU in the 90's. That's a big point in his favor!

elbuckeye28;492144 wrote:Hmmmmmmm...Zwick, although an above average QB, was just not going to get it done, Hamby pass or not. He had plenty of opportunities over the years to prove he was better than Troy Smith, but he didn't.

I agree. He had every chance to win the starting job and just didn't get it done. But I thought he handled the situation with class and he did play well when we needed him.

enigmaax

Hobbitt - Good info. A couple points:

It isn't that I don't want to count Pryor's ability to run. It is that a bunch of rushing yards out of context doesn't mean anything. There are two main things that are marks against his rushing - 1) for all his ability, he took more sacks than Boeckman (per pass attempt) and 2) he wasn't able to translate that ability to wins in those big games/bad losses. It is only a strength if you make it work when you need it. It can be just as much of a detriment (and has been in certain circumstances) if he's making bad decisions (running too much instead of hitting a receiver or taking a sack when he should've gotten rid of the ball). As I said before, it is fine to pile up rushing yards against inferior teams. But he didn't even average 2 yards per carry in at least three of his losses. If he can and has been shut down to that extent, that added dimension that he supposedly brings doesn't really exist.

Aside from the Oregon win, Pryor hasn't been spectacular even while winning, which is the exact same thing people were trying to say about Boeckman. You pointed out six big wins this season and last season. In half of those games he didn't even complete half of his passes. In two of them, he didn't even throw for 100 yards. Half of those games he didn't even rush for 4 ypc. These are his big wins, but he's not even "average" in many regards in those wins.

Things may change. This may be his breakout season. As of right now, dude has been very ordinary with an excellent team around him. The Rose Bowl was a great performance and a big win, but it is one game. His inflated standing on some people's lists here is still completely based on the fact that they think he is learning and growing and he's now experienced. Even the Miami game was a mixed bag for him.

FatHobbit

enigmaax;492239 wrote:It isn't that I don't want to count Pryor's ability to run. It is that a bunch of rushing yards out of context doesn't mean anything. There are two main things that are marks against his rushing - 1) for all his ability, he took more sacks than Boeckman (per pass attempt) and

I'd be curious to see if his sacks/game have been improving. I'm not sure where to find that stat if it's available.

enigmaax;492239 wrote: 2) he wasn't able to translate that ability to wins in those big games/bad losses. It is only a strength if you make it work when you need it. It can be just as much of a detriment (and has been in certain circumstances) if he's making bad decisions (running too much instead of hitting a receiver or taking a sack when he should've gotten rid of the ball).

I think everyone (at least all the Buckeye fans) thinks his decision making is improving.

enigmaax;492239 wrote:Aside from the Oregon win, Pryor hasn't been spectacular even while winning,

I can agree with that. There was a stretch last year where all he had to do was hand off and not lose the game.

enigmaax;492239 wrote:which is the exact same thing people were trying to say about Boeckman. You pointed out six big wins this season and last season. In half of those games he didn't even complete half of his passes. In two of them, he didn't even throw for 100 yards. Half of those games he didn't even rush for 4 ypc. These are his big wins, but he's not even "average" in many regards in those wins.

The biggest problem I think TB had at the end (and I bet Tressel hated it more than I do) was the turnovers.

enigmaax;492239 wrote:Things may change. This may be his breakout season. As of right now, dude has been very ordinary with an excellent team around him. The Rose Bowl was a great performance and a big win, but it is one game. His inflated standing on some people's lists here is still completely based on the fact that they think he is learning and growing and he's now experienced. Even the Miami game was a mixed bag for him.

His completion % in the Miami game was not good. But I'll take throwing for 233 yards and a touchdown while rushing for 113 and a touchdown and not having any turnovers. (although a couple of his passes could have been picked off pretty easy.) I might be more impressed with that win once Miami has played a couple of decent teams so we can see how good (or bad) they might be. I am as optimistic as anybody, but I don't think Pryor is perfect and he has a lot of room for improvement.

trep14

Some of the points on this thread are absolutely laughable. Boeckman over Pryor? Zwick would have been a better QB than Smith had Hamby caught that pass? That last one really makes me laugh. You say that Smith cost OSU two national championships? Man I would have loved to have seen Zwick play against that Florida team. I'm pretty sure OSU probably would have had negative offensive yards in that game. If Zwick had half the natural ability you say he had he would have shown it. Zwick was handed the starting job in 2004, given every opportunity to succeed, even starting out with a few creampuffs in Cincy and Marshall. He didn't, case closed. Its already been debated in another thread, but in my opinion, he shouldn't have even been on the field vs. Texas, the job should have gone to Smith right when Smith came back.

enigmaax

trep14;492289 wrote:Zwick would have been a better QB than Smith had Hamby caught that pass?

I didn't post it, but I think the simple point there is that Zwick may have never been permanently benched if not for that play/game. If that were the case, we obviously don't know how history would've been written differently but its possible Smith never would have gotten his shot (or improved as much as he did by his last season).

trep14

enigmaax;492299 wrote:I didn't post it, but I think the simple point there is that Zwick may have never been permanently benched if not for that play/game. If that were the case, we obviously don't know how history would've been written differently but its possible Smith never would have gotten his shot (or improved as much as he did by his last season).

Actually, I think the play that sealed Zwick's fate was the fumble on the 20 yard line with the game on the line. Tressel obviously still had the confidence in him after the dropped pass to put him out there and Zwick didn't deliver and that's on Zwick. Dropped passes happen to the best of QB's, its not really an excuse.

Mr. Russell

Yeah but the whole game changed when he dropped the pass. He catches it, momentum is different.

trep14

Mr. Russell;492331 wrote:Yeah but the whole game changed when he dropped the pass. He catches it, momentum is different.

Come on, the guy had a chance to start in 2004 and blew it big time. The guy was given another chance by the football gods and fumbled it (literally) away. He clearly didn't have the mental make-up of a big time quarterback. I'm sure momentum was on Texas' side, but if you are as good as everyone is making you out to be, you gotta make a play in that situation, being down 1 with timeouts left and two minutes to go. I can't believe there are people out there (not saying you, but the guy who made the initial comments about Smith being a fraud) that believe that Smith wasn't the more talented QB and the only reason Zwick never turned into the QB everyone though he would be is all on Hamby and not on Zwick.

enigmaax

trep14;492306 wrote:Actually, I think the play that sealed Zwick's fate was the fumble on the 20 yard line with the game on the line. Tressel obviously still had the confidence in him after the dropped pass to put him out there and Zwick didn't deliver and that's on Zwick. Dropped passes happen to the best of QB's, its not really an excuse.

True. I can't imagine Smith wouldn't have seen the field again anyway - one way or the other he was going to win the job.

It is really hard to argue against Smith as the #1 QB ever at OSU. I would probably still take Schlichter, but there's a good case for either guy. Kern is probably in the talk, though a lot of people would knock him for his passing totals (fair or not). I think Hoying is often underrated in this conversation.

believer

wkfan;492147 wrote:IMO, Pryor is behind as an overall......

Rex Kern
Troy Smith
Art Schlichter
Joe Germaine

and even-ish with.....

Craig Krenzel
Corny Greene

and better than all the rest.

I agree. Kern wasn't particularly athletic but he's what I would call a "Quarterback's quarterback." When he was under center he oozed confidence and leadership and the team responded to that.

Smith was a great combination of leader and pure athlete.

Schlichter and Germaine were similar to Kern except from time to time they'd make a boneheaded play that sort of took away from that confidence level.

Krenzel and Greene were no-nonsense "git r dun" types of QB's in my opinion.

Pryor has the potential of being the best overall QB in OSU history...a lot rides on how well he performs this year. He is without a doubt the most athletic QB but does he exude leadership and instill confidence? Ummmmmmm....I'll get back to you on that one come this January.

Tiger2003

FatHobbit;492275 wrote:I'd be curious to see if his sacks/game have been improving. I'm not sure where to find that stat if it's available.

Pryor was sacked 21 times his Freshman year and 22 times his sophomore year and 5 times this year.
Boeckman was sacked 18 times his Junior year and 8 times his senior year, lost his job to Pryor.

jordo212000

Tiernan;492130 wrote:I've said this many times to many people. Justin Zwick should hunt Hamby down and kick him repeatedly in the balls. Troy Smith cost OSU not one but two NC's. Most undeserving Heisman winner ever. Yeah yeah yeah he beat Michigan three times...Zwick had so much more natural QB ability but the OL he was saddled with cost him an NFL career.

haha. This is rich. C'mon man. Justin Zwick got a look from the NFL and he wasn't good enough. The Colts brought him in and gave him a chance; then they didn't sign him. Please don't tell me that Zwick isn't in the NFL because he didn't get to play either. Matt Cassel is living proof that you don't have to start to play in the NFL. The guy that beat him out at USC is collecting moss on the bench in Houston.

Also.. Smith plays for the 49ers right now. Where is Zwick? He's not in the league and he is probably pimping out his name to some insurance agency in the greater Columbus area

enigmaax

Tiger2003;492504 wrote:Pryor was sacked 21 times his Freshman year and 22 times his sophomore year and 5 times this year.
Boeckman was sacked 18 times his Junior year and 8 times his senior year, lost his job to Pryor.

Yes, Pryor has done significantly better from his first year to now. He went from being sacked once in every 7.8 pass attempts to 13.4 last year to 16.2 so far this year. Overall career = 11.2.

Boeckman's number was 11.6 overall.

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