Do You Believe in Heaven and Hell?
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Heretic
How does that compare to the J.R.R. Tolkien's Silmarillion's version of the afterlife. Since they both are equally grounded in reality.Skyhook79;997944 wrote:The book of Revelations gives a glimpse of what Heaven will be like. It is not possible to understand the full nature of heaven from a human perspective. -
dlazz
DMT more like GHBjustincredible;997972 wrote:I wouldn't mind getting a hold of some DMT, I've heard the trips are pretty awesome. Just something I'd like to do once. -
Skyhook79
Heretic;997975 wrote:How does that compare to the J.R.R. Tolkien's Silmarillion's version of the afterlife. Since they both are equally grounded in reality.
Don't you mean Christopher Tolkeins the fantasy writers version? -
tcarrier32
sounds like a chatter gathering is in order.justincredible;997972 wrote:I wouldn't mind getting a hold of some DMT, I've heard the trips are pretty awesome. Just something I'd like to do once.
just kidding.
but seriously. -
jmog
I love the condescending tone, you are so much smarter and more advanced than those who happen to believe there is a Supreme Being of some sort huh?DeyDurkie5;997726 wrote:smh. i need to stop getting into these arguments. always leave me floored that people are so primitive in their beliefs. -
justincredible
wuttcarrier32;998019 wrote:sounds like a huddle gathering is in order.
just kidding.
but seriously. -
gut
In other words, Heaven as we would know it (not as we think we know it) could really kind of suck?Skyhook79;997944 wrote: It is not possible to understand the full nature of heaven from a human perspective. -
tcarrier32
excuse me. chatter.justincredible;998038 wrote:wut -
Heretic
Yes. One eternal church service. The collection plate just keeps coming and you've sung the same hymns 5348734723984 times while God drones on and on about crap in Leviticus than no one cares about. And the seats are too uncomfortable to even get a good nap in.gut;998136 wrote:In other words, Heaven as we would know it (not as we think we know it) could really kind of suck? -
tcarrier32
i've always wondered how heaven could truly be the greatest measurement of happiness if ones family members are absent from it. No amount of seeing some random dude drone on about how awesome he is could make me forget how much my family members kick ass.Heretic;998152 wrote:Yes. One eternal church service. The collection plate just keeps coming and you've sung the same hymns 5348734723984 times while God drones on and on about crap in Leviticus than no one cares about. And the seats are too uncomfortable to even get a good nap in. -
Skyhook79
From the partial descriptions in Revelations and other places in the Bible Heaven is going to definitely not "suck".gut;998136 wrote:In other words, Heaven as we would know it (not as we think we know it) could really kind of suck? -
Skyhook79
tcarrier32;998175 wrote:i've always wondered how heaven could truly be the greatest measurement of happiness if ones family members are absent from it. No amount of seeing some random dude drone on about how awesome he is could make me forget how much my family members kick ass.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.[SUP]2[/SUP]And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3[/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
‘See, the home[URL="javascript:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL] of God is among mortals.
He will dwell[URL="javascript:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL] with them;
they will be his peoples,[URL="javascript:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL]
and God himself will be with them;[URL="javascript:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL]
[SUP]4[/SUP] he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.’"
Rev: 21, 1-4
If you or your family members have not accepted Jesus then you will not see them in Heaven and imo you will not have that recollection of them because of what is said in these verses. -
DeyDurkie5
so jesus, who never lived before, was born a couple thousand years ago. he grew up performing no miracles, but when he became older he somehow knew about the heavens and gods word and how to heal things no one else could even comprehend. he was also born to a virgin, someone who didnt have sex to birth this dude. and the only proof we have, that he was resurrected, is a book 2000 years old, that has a bunch of tell tale stories from people who claim they witnessed these things.Skyhook79;998250 wrote:"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.[SUP]2[/SUP]And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3[/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
‘See, the home[URL="http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL] of God is among mortals.
He will dwell[URL="http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL] with them;
they will be his peoples,[URL="http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL]
and God himself will be with them;[URL="http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);"][SUP]*[/SUP][/URL]
[SUP]4[/SUP] he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.’"
Rev: 21, 1-4
If you or your family members have not accepted Jesus then you will not see them in Heaven and imo you will not have that recollection of them because of what is said in these verses.
ill take the dirt over that any day of the week. Let me ask you this skyhook, if for whatever reason you die and there is no heaven, and everything you believed when you were alive was just a complete waste of time and a complete lie, how will y oufeel? -
xKoToVxSyNdRoMe
Probably won't feel anything. He will just be dead, remember?DeyDurkie5;998858 wrote:so jesus, who never lived before, was born a couple thousand years ago. he grew up performing no miracles, but when he became older he somehow knew about the heavens and gods word and how to heal things no one else could even comprehend. he was also born to a virgin, someone who didnt have sex to birth this dude. and the only proof we have, that he was resurrected, is a book 2000 years old, that has a bunch of tell tale stories from people who claim they witnessed these things.
ill take the dirt over that any day of the week. Let me ask you this skyhook, if for whatever reason you die and there is no heaven, and everything you believed when you were alive was just a complete waste of time and a complete lie, how will y oufeel? -
DeyDurkie5
religion is basically a feel good story for people to help get them through their lives. then when they die, they can't call jesus out on being a lying bitch.xKoToVxSyNdRoMe;998867 wrote:Probably won't feel anything. He will just be dead, remember? -
xKoToVxSyNdRoMe
FascinatingDeyDurkie5;998870 wrote:religion is basically a feel good story for people to help get them through their lives. then when they die, they can't call jesus out on being a lying bitch. -
Skyhook79
Religion? Who is talking about religion? Jesus does help you get thru life but I accepted him because of what will happen to me after my life on Earth is over.DeyDurkie5;998870 wrote:religion is basically a feel good story for people to help get them through their lives. then when they die, they can't call jesus out on being a lying bitch. -
Heretic
Yes to this. Especially when you consider how some religions throw in laws of the time into their "holy" books (like how the bible tossed in Leviticus to regurgitate 5 million rules and laws for people of that time to live by). Sort of a "here's how we expect you to live...and here's the potential for afterlife salvation or damnation depending on how closely you adhere to our rules, YOU SUPERSTITIOUS RABBLE!!" thing.DeyDurkie5;998870 wrote:religion is basically a feel good story for people to help get them through their lives.
The way I look at things is that since I don't have a broken leg or torn ACL, I don't use a physical crutch to get from point A to point B. And since I tend to be a happy, upbeat person, I don't need an emotional crutch like religion to get through life because I don't spend hours on end moping about how horrible this world is and hoping for a better one in the afterlife. -
Jughead
I saw hell last night for about 8 minutes. It was located at Ford Field and it involved 2 football teams.
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jmog
You know there is a standard for historical books to be accepted as fact. The standard involves many things from eye witness accounts to tests on the language/syntax used in the region/time.DeyDurkie5;998858 wrote:so jesus, who never lived before, was born a couple thousand years ago. he grew up performing no miracles, but when he became older he somehow knew about the heavens and gods word and how to heal things no one else could even comprehend. he was also born to a virgin, someone who didnt have sex to birth this dude. and the only proof we have, that he was resurrected, is a book 2000 years old, that has a bunch of tell tale stories from people who claim they witnessed these things.
ill take the dirt over that any day of the week. Let me ask you this skyhook, if for whatever reason you die and there is no heaven, and everything you believed when you were alive was just a complete waste of time and a complete lie, how will y oufeel?
You know the New Testament has passed these tests with higher scores than most historical books that we readily accept as fact. The problem is that is has to do with God/Jesus so people are so ready to denouce it immediately and ACT like they are smarter than other people because they don't believe. Just remember, it's just an act, you are not smarter than people who happen to believe in a Supreme Being. -
Heretic
Sadly, you're right.Jughead;999817 wrote:I saw hell last night for about 8 minutes. It was located at Ford Field and it involved 2 football teams.
You know its bad when you're watching high school football games and they're being played at a higher level than a college conference championship. -
tcarrier32
can you provide links for the results of these types of test? As a student of history, I would be laughed out of my research group if I attempted to use the bible as a source for anything except for religious thought. In fact, we had an anthropology course lecture specifically about how the exodus is either a figure of speech or made up entirely, I suppose the new testament might stand a better chance, but I doubt it.jmog;1000282 wrote:You know there is a standard for historical books to be accepted as fact. The standard involves many things from eye witness accounts to tests on the language/syntax used in the region/time.
You know the New Testament has passed these tests with higher scores than most historical books that we readily accept as fact. The problem is that is has to do with God/Jesus so people are so ready to denouce it immediately and ACT like they are smarter than other people because they don't believe. Just remember, it's just an act, you are not smarter than people who happen to believe in a Supreme Being. -
HitsRus
I'm jumping in here late in the thread and I don't have time to read thru all the posts, but it should be noted that almost all religions have a concept of the afterlife, and that they have some general concept of reward or punishment in the hereafter(whatever that may be). Many of these religions have arisen independent of each other, yet they have common themes.
I think it's wrong to categorize religion as an opiate or 'feel good'. In almost all religions, it is anything but 'feel good'. -
HitsRus
Buddhists also believe that the state of your being at the time of death, greatly influences your next state of existence. Hence, the Catholic concept of having your soul at peace at death thru forgiveness is not all that unique. This comes from two distinctly different religions arising from dinstinctly seperate origins.Mulva;995586 wrote:
If there is something after life, then why wouldn't you do all of those things and then simply ask for forgiveness and have your sins absolved. It's a two way street of equal stupidity.
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O-Trap
dlazz;994875 wrote:ib4 Otrap comes in here and tells us how smart he is because he studied religion in college.
Oh good. Glad to see I'm being ripped on for something I'm not doing.
I don't care what someone studies. It doesn't make them smart, and I've never claimed to be smart. Hell, I don't really bring up my education much (only reason I ever have was when asked about it).
Honestly, I hate when this topic comes up anymore. It's just a bunch of soundbite arguments and potshots.
jmog;996430 wrote:O-Trap would be better to give examples here, but there are many logical proofs/reasons for a belief in a supreme being and/or heaven/hell. You just gave your opinion that it doesn't "sound logical" not actual logical reasons.
"Proofs" would be a stretch, as the word itself is often applied to things confined to natural law. "Evidences" would probably be more appropriate.
From a purely philosophical perspective, there are actually some that can contend for one that is, at the very least, interested in the functioning of his creation, much like an inventor whose passion is his invention may pay attention to even the smallest detail and whether or not it is running as it was invented to run. That view, like many in philosophy, is not without some presupposition, though.tcarrier32;997504 wrote:im not going to try to start shit. but most logical proofs for belief in a god can only argue to the existence for a deistic god, not a personal one.
Certainly. Quite honestly, it is frustrating to discuss the philosophy of something that, at the end of the day, has power to be vastly different than one may postulate. I think this is considered to be the reason Aristotle placed more importance on philosophy of things on earth than things otherworldly.tcarrier32;997504 wrote: there is a reason something like 73% of Philosophers lean towards Atheism/Agnosticism.
tcarrier32;997508 wrote:logical proof? there are plenty of attempted philosophical arguments for the existence of god. the most famous might be St. Thomas Aquinas' Five Ways.
here is a sample. its called the Kalam Cosmological Argument.
1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause for its existence;
2) The Universe has a beginning of its existence. Therefore
3) The Universe has a cause of its existence.
4) If the Universe has a cause of its existence, then that cause is God;
5) Therefore, God exists.
like I stated earlier, these types of arguments really only posit the existence of a Causal Agent. Which could really be anything.
Naturally, the Kalam argument doesn't even necessitate sentience. More or less, the philosophy of the existence of a Judeo-Christian God is concluded in steps:
I think the most widely accepted difference is that one, being able to be studied as an entity that is subject to natural law, is likely to follow the rules of finity. The other, already alleging to exist outside the bounds of such law, isn't necessarily subject to the same.FatHobbit;997640 wrote:That is what I have an issue with. Why does the universe have to have a beginning? If you can accept that god has always been there, what's so different about saying the universe has always been there? If the universe has to have a beginning, then why doesn't god?
dlazz;997714 wrote:Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
I seriously do look for this in every topic on this issue.
Skyhook79;999079 wrote:Religion? Who is talking about religion? Jesus does help you get thru life but I accepted him because of what will happen to me after my life on Earth is over.
Ah, so if there is no heaven, you'd have no reason to believe?
What of Moses, Abraham, and David? They did not likely have ANY knowledge of an afterlife.
Indeed. Many religions even suggest that people will (or in some cases, even should) suffer.HitsRus;1000750 wrote:I'm jumping in here late in the thread and I don't have time to read thru all the posts, but it should be noted that almost all religions have a concept of the afterlife, and that they have some general concept of reward or punishment in the hereafter(whatever that may be). Many of these religions have arisen independent of each other, yet they have common themes.
I think it's wrong to categorize religion as an opiate or 'feel good'. In almost all religions, it is anything but 'feel good'.