Disgusted with Progressives
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jmog
I agree that most of the statues were erected by racist democrats in the long past decades of Jim Crow, etc.BoatShoes;1867147 wrote:George Washington and Thomas Jefferson weren't traitors. Moreover, Robert E. Lee himself opposed statues for Confederate icons and they were erected by racist Democrats in support of White Supremacy - not really to honor the specific men. And, even if they were, Germany doesn't have statutes for the heroic soldiers who fought for their Fatherland during the Third Reich.
But, with that being said, for what it's worth - I personally think the left focusing on taking down statues is a poor place to direct any political capital, that attempting to drown out offensive speech in public forums is antithetical to Liberalism and that if statutes are going to be taken down, they should be done via actions of local deliberative bodies and not mobs in the streets playing dress up.
The one statue/person I have actual read a lot of biographies on and how he acted/believed was General Lee.
Short version:
He was a general in the US Army.
He severely struggled with joining Virginia and therefore the Confederate Army. He actually held abolitionist views, he truly believed that eventually the South would abolish slavery as well.
His one belief that overshadowed his love for the USA, was that he believed in States rights above the Federal Government. That led him to join the Virginia Army and by proxy Confederate Army.
By everything I have read Lee was actually a good man, believed slavery should end, but just happened to love Virginia more than the USA.
He was definitely in the minority when it comes to the officers and elected officials in the south (Jefferson Davis, et al). You can obviously see that in all of their secession letters since they all (going off memory) listed slavery as their main reason for secession. Some kind of listed States Rights as a secondary reason, but slavery was the obvious take away from every states secession letter.
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BoatShoes
There are elements of antifa that are overtly communist and other elements that - for whatever reason - believe what they perceive to be fascist right-wing speech should not even be permitted in public forums and attempt to use force and coercion at what they perceive to be fascist movements. To paraphrase Eisenhower, in both cases, their numbers are small and they are stupid.superman;1867060 wrote:
Seldom right and wrong again.
One negative element of this media coverage of the event is that you could get the impression that America is just swarming with very extreme individuals on both the right and the left when these groups are very small and very fringe but their zeal makes them seem larger than they are through relentless online trolling etc. and never ending media coverage. -
iclfan2
I understand that, and even you do, but morons like isadore, Sharpton, and others have already mentioned they want these statues and things with their names down. My comment was to the op who said what happens next, and then Isidore loosely said traitors, and who know what he means by that. This is completely beyond the confederacy.BoatShoes;1867147 wrote:George Washington and Thomas Jefferson weren't traitors. -
iclfan2
Their "guiding principals" and their outward acts are completely different. It may have started harmless enough but like every group, they get taken over by the radicals. They have equality, it seems that they want more.BoatShoes;1867151 wrote:Here is a link to BLM's guiding principles.
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jmog
100% true, and the bolded line is actually a rather communist belief, even if they don't realize it.BoatShoes;1867156 wrote:There are elements of antifa that are overtly communist and other elements that - for whatever reason - believe what they perceive to be fascist right-wing speech should not even be permitted in public forums and attempt to use force and coercion at what they perceive to be fascist movements. To paraphrase Eisenhower, in both cases, their numbers are small and they are stupid.
One negative element of this media coverage of the event is that you could get the impression that America is just swarming with very extreme individuals on both the right and the left when these groups are very small and very fringe but their zeal makes them seem larger than they are through relentless online trolling etc. and never ending media coverage.
Force and coercion to stop speech they don't agree with? Right up there in the communist manifesto. -
BoatShoes
That's all well and good. Germany doesn't have any statues of Erwin Rommel who was a brilliant commander and larger than life figure. The German people could have honored him for not being a Nazi party member, plotting to assassinate Hitler, etc. but they don't.jmog;1867155 wrote:I agree that most of the statues were erected by racist democrats in the long past decades of Jim Crow, etc.
The one statue/person I have actual read a lot of biographies on and how he acted/believed was General Lee.
Short version:
He was a general in the US Army.
He severely struggled with joining Virginia and therefore the Confederate Army. He actually held abolitionist views, he truly believed that eventually the South would abolish slavery as well.
His one belief that overshadowed his love for the USA, was that he believed in States rights above the Federal Government. That led him to join the Virginia Army and by proxy Confederate Army.
By everything I have read Lee was actually a good man, believed slavery should end, but just happened to love Virginia more than the USA.
He was definitely in the minority when it comes to the officers and elected officials in the south (Jefferson Davis, et al). You can obviously see that in all of their secession letters since they all (going off memory) listed slavery as their main reason for secession. Some kind of listed States Rights as a secondary reason, but slavery was the obvious take away from every states secession letter.
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BoatShoes
Now again - I disagree with this kind of leftism, but they might argue is that certain expressions are manifestations of power in an unjust society that thereby make said society "less free" for minorities that are subordinated by said expression. A good example of these sorts of arguments might be those made by feminist law professor Catharine MacKinnon whose legal arguments basically created causes of action for sexual harassment and thereby burdening the expression powers of men.jmog;1867162 wrote:100% true, and the bolded line is actually a rather communist belief, even if they don't realize it.
Force and coercion to stop speech they don't agree with? Right up there in the communist manifesto.
But where I think these groups make the mistake - unlike MacKinnon - is that - and 1st Amendment Jurisprudence supports this notion - certain public forums are sacred and should allow even the most vile and abusive speech. -
wkfan
While their written 'guiding principles' may say one thing.....their actions don't always correspond to those principles......BoatShoes;1867151 wrote:Here is a link to BLM's guiding principles.
http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/
Much of it is too identitarian and kind of clouded in the language of modern liberal arts education that I find to be a bit annoying but I don't really see anything that might be interpreted as advocating for the subjugation of whites. Which ones of these principles do you think might be p.c. cover for desiring the subjugation of whites? -
superman
Are you saying that antifa itself is small in number or that the extremists are a small part of antifa?BoatShoes;1867156 wrote:There are elements of antifa that are overtly communist and other elements that - for whatever reason - believe what they perceive to be fascist right-wing speech should not even be permitted in public forums and attempt to use force and coercion at what they perceive to be fascist movements. To paraphrase Eisenhower, in both cases, their numbers are small and they are stupid.
One negative element of this media coverage of the event is that you could get the impression that America is just swarming with very extreme individuals on both the right and the left when these groups are very small and very fringe but their zeal makes them seem larger than they are through relentless online trolling etc. and never ending media coverage. -
isadore
I was unaware either one of them committed treason against the United States as Davis, Lee and the other Confederates did.iclfan2;1867129 wrote:Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? You're a moron if you think it is a good idea to take statues of founding Americans down.
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isadore
source?superman;1867141 wrote:Antifa -
superman
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/08/16/who-are-the-antifa/?utm_term=.5d9359e725e7isadore;1867185 wrote:source?
Even the Wah compost admits they are communists. -
isadore
1. Lee’s highest rank in the US army was colonel.jmog;1867155 wrote:I agree that most of the statues were erected by racist democrats in the long past decades of Jim Crow, etc.
The one statue/person I have actual read a lot of biographies on and how he acted/believed was General Lee.
Short version:
He was a general in the US Army.
He severely struggled with joining Virginia and therefore the Confederate Army. He actually held abolitionist views, he truly believed that eventually the South would abolish slavery as well.
His one belief that overshadowed his love for the USA, was that he believed in States rights above the Federal Government. That led him to join the Virginia Army and by proxy Confederate Army.
By everything I have read Lee was actually a good man, believed slavery should end, but just happened to love Virginia more than the USA.
He was definitely in the minority when it comes to the officers and elected officials in the south (Jefferson Davis, et al). You can obviously see that in all of their secession letters since they all (going off memory) listed slavery as their main reason for secession. Some kind of listed States Rights as a secondary reason, but slavery was the obvious take away from every states secession letter.
H
2. He was not an abolitionist.
The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
— Robert E. Lee, to Mary Anna Lee, December 27, 1856
He had slaves beaten on the family’s plantation.
When his father in law manumitted his slaves in his will, Lee fought in court to keep them enslaved.
When his army entered Pennsylvania during the Gettysburg campaign, captured blacks were sent south into slavery.
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O-Trap
Lee and Stonewall Jackson weren't founders, though. Is it cool if we take those down, particularly since most of them weren't even there before 1960?iclfan2;1867129 wrote:Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? You're a moron if you think it is a good idea to take statues of founding Americans down.
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isadore
1. source to picture you used. 2. The article does not say anti fa are communists, it says some are.superman;1867187 wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/08/16/who-are-the-antifa/?utm_term=.5d9359e725e7
Even the Wah compost admits they are communists. -
iclfan2
Not sure what you are referring to. My quote was into response that they won't stop at just confederate statues (like people are already bitching about). Isidore said yea more traitors, but not sure who he was referring to since it was above and beyond confederates.O-Trap;1867191 wrote:Lee and Stonewall Jackson weren't founders, though. Is it cool if we take those down, particularly since most of them weren't even there before 1960?
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superman
You really don't know how to use Google do you?isadore;1867194 wrote:1. source to picture you used. 2. The article does not say anti fa are communists, it says some are. -
iclfan2
Even if they aren't all communists (which they are), they're a bunch of criminals. Did you see Berkeley? Half the time they are arguing against normal republican people (Milo is an outlier, but still dumb as hell). You can't be anti-fascist when there are only like 2,000 fascists in general. They can't consider all republican speech fascist, that just makes them retards.isadore;1867194 wrote:1. source to picture you used. 2. The article does not say anti fa are communists, it says some are.
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isadore
1. while you claim they are all communist, the best evidence so far presented does not support that claim. 2. There are more than 2000 fascist in America 3. Even if there were only 2000, they should still be opposed.iclfan2;1867198 wrote:Even if they aren't all communists (which they are), they're a bunch of criminals. Did you see Berkeley? Half the time they are arguing against normal republican people (Milo is an outlier, but still dumb as hell). You can't be anti-fascist when there are only like 2,000 fascists in general. They can't consider all republican speech fascist, that just makes them retards.
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isadore
gosh a ruddies, you used a picture to illustrate a point, but there is no way to tell if the picture is of the group you claim. It may very well be, but it is not possible to tell from the picture alone.superman;1867196 wrote:You really don't know how to use Google do you? -
jmog
You obviously/purposefully edited that quote...let's look at the whole quote in the letter he wrote to his wife...isadore;1867188 wrote: The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
— Robert E. Lee, to Mary Anna Lee, December 27, 1856
He said slavery is a moral and political evil. He said that it is a greater evil to the white men who own the slaves that it is to the black men because of how morally corrupt it shows the white men to be."In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence."
You should really know what you are talking about before posting, I actually have read that whole letter he wrote his wife in one of his biographies. -
gut
They are useful idiots, and the left is now calling them to arms (intentionally or not).iclfan2;1867198 wrote:Even if they aren't all communists (which they are), they're a bunch of criminals. Did you see Berkeley? Half the time they are arguing against normal republican people (Milo is an outlier, but still dumb as hell). You can't be anti-fascist when there are only like 2,000 fascists in general. They can't consider all republican speech fascist, that just makes them retards.
And the liberal media manufactures, intentionally or not, these useful idiots. You're for balancing the budget, you must hate black people. You go to Church every Sunday, you must hate gay people. You voted Republican, you must be anti-science. You're pro life - you're a misogynist!
Identity politics combined with false equivalencies and intolerance is a deadly combination. That's what gave us Trump, because no matter how awful and stupid he is, we don't more of where the left is trying to take us. -
O-Trap
My bad. I misunderstood.iclfan2;1867195 wrote:Not sure what you are referring to. My quote was into response that they won't stop at just confederate statues (like people are already bitching about). Isidore said yea more traitors, but not sure who he was referring to since it was above and beyond confederates.
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Ouch.jmog;1867207 wrote:You obviously/purposefully edited that quote...let's look at the whole quote in the letter he wrote to his wife...
He said slavery is a moral and political evil. He said that it is a greater evil to the white men who own the slaves that it is to the black men because of how morally corrupt it shows the white men to be.
You should really know what you are talking about before posting, I actually have read that whole letter he wrote his wife in one of his biographies. -
isadore
LOL, according to you he was an abolitionist.jmog;1867207 wrote:You obviously/purposefully edited that quote...let's look at the whole quote in the letter he wrote to his wife...
He said slavery is a moral and political evil. He said that it is a greater evil to the white men who own the slaves that it is to the black men because of how morally corrupt it shows the white men to be.
You should really know what you are talking about before posting, I actually have read that whole letter he wrote his wife in one of his biographies.
An abolitionist who thought we were doing blacks an enormous favor by enslaving them.
An abolitionist who had slaves beaten
An abolitionist who fought in court to keep manumitted blacks in slavery.
An abolitionist who had his army send blacks into slavery.
and a traitor to boot. -
iclfan2
By burning down buildings? And trying to stop free speech of non-fascists? You're so out there on this issue it's humorous.isadore;1867204 wrote:1. while you claim they are all communist, the best evidence so far presented does not support that claim. 2. There are more than 2000 fascist in America 3. Even if there were only 2000, they should still be opposed.
Peaceful opposition is fine. Criminal and violent opposition should never be tolerated by any side. Not defended by yourself and the other regressives.
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