Breaking down Bernie's plan
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rrfan
You got that right....sleeper;1778470 wrote:Here's the actual reality of Bernie's plan. The tax increases won't come anywhere near the revenue needed to cover all these entitlement programs so they US will continue to rapidly produce unsustainable deficits that we will ultimately pass down to the next generation.
Now cue BS to tell us that US debt doesn't matter because its in our own currency and there are no downsides to having trillions of dollars of debt as long as its in USD. -
Dr Winston O'Boogie
I agree with Zwick on this. The scare tactic that big corporations will leave our shores is just that. I have worked for twenty years for publicly traded companies. Corporations do provide economic benefit. But they also take a great deal of benefit and spirit away from our society. I have zero problem with them being forced to pay a reasonable rate of tax. And the executives and officers that drink off the teet can take a little pain. -
ZWICK 4 PREZ
Well actually the sad reality is he'll not have near the support to get anything done. -
rrfan
He has you so he is almost there...ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778475 wrote:Well actually the sad reality is he'll not have near the support to get anything done. -
ZWICK 4 PREZ
He has the majority of millennials and I'm sure that scares you and the GOP to death... to know it's a dying party.rrfan;1778476 wrote:He has you so he is almost there... -
sleeper
They won't leave the US but they will move at the margin operations overseas. We already see it happening with tax havens so what gives you any confidence that increasing the tax rate even more will ultimately increase federal tax receipts?Dr Winston O'Boogie;1778474 wrote:I agree with Zwick on this. The scare tactic that big corporations will leave our shores is just that. I have worked for twenty years for publicly traded companies. Corporations do provide economic benefit. But they also take a great deal of benefit and spirit away from our society. I have zero problem with them being forced to pay a reasonable rate of tax. And the executives and officers that drink off the teet can take a little pain.
The reality is, you'll greatly increase the incentive for companies to keep money and build new operations overseas while vastly decreasing on the margin investment opportunities in the US. I think these tax policies plus the environment that would allow such policies to exist will force companies to become super lean and shed jobs left and right.
Tl;dr: Bernie would be a disaster. -
sleeper
Dying party. Controls Congress.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778478 wrote:He has the majority of millennials and I'm sure that scares you and the GOP to death... to know it's a dying party.
BTW, the majority of young people typically lean left and somehow the GOP still exists. The GOP will likely be much different 20 years from now but to say its a "dying party" is delusional at best. -
rrfan
How old do you think I am? Come on you can't make things right by sharing wealth. It is not sharing it is taking even more from those who have and have worked for it so we can give it to those not willing to work for it.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778478 wrote:He has the majority of millennials and I'm sure that scares you and the GOP to death... to know it's a dying party.
Everybody wants to make 250K per year but are they willing to do what others have done to get there? No they just want the end result. -
Dr Winston O'Boogie
If JC showed back up today, who do you think he'd vote for?
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rrfan
ZwickDr Winston O'Boogie;1778484 wrote:If JC showed back up today, who do you think he'd vote for? -
ZWICK 4 PREZ
if it wants to survive it better be a lot different than today.sleeper;1778482 wrote:Dying party. Controls Congress.
BTW, the majority of young people typically lean left and somehow the GOP still exists. The GOP will likely be much different 20 years from now but to say its a "dying party" is delusional at best. -
ZWICK 4 PREZ
Doesn't matter how old you are, my point remains.rrfan;1778483 wrote:How old do you think I am? Come on you can't make things right by sharing wealth. It is not sharing it is taking even more from those who have and have worked for it so we can give it to those not willing to work for it.
Everybody wants to make 250K per year but are they willing to do what others have done to get there? No they just want the end result.
You can't make things right by exclusion of wealth.. we're already seeing that.
Quit with the "rich worked hard for their money, poor people are lazy". It's lazy and untrue. -
Con_Alma
My concern is that the solutions seem to function as if the private wealth belongs to the economy collectively. It doesn't and it shouldn't. I would listen to solutions that were more related to reduction in collectively providing goods and services. We've gone beyond our need as a society for collective services. I'd be happy if we capped them for a generation or two or better yet reduced them.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778488 wrote:Doesn't matter how old you are, my point remains.
You can't make things right by exclusion of wealth.. we're already seeing that.
Quit with the "rich worked hard for their money, poor people are lazy". It's lazy and untrue.
I'm all for true safety nets for the disadvantaged so long as safety nets are based on the fundamental life sustaining needs. I'd like to see a cap or reduction in social services and shift the expenditures to infrastructure updates and repairs but have it done so at a level that's a slower expenditure than we reduced for social services. -
rrfan
I see it every day. What makes it right to make someone who has more pay entirely more in taxes? They already pay more than everyone else.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778488 wrote:Doesn't matter how old you are, my point remains.
You can't make things right by exclusion of wealth.. we're already seeing that.
Quit with the "rich worked hard for their money, poor people are lazy". It's lazy and untrue. -
sleeper
Again, you're delusional and buying into the BS.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778487 wrote:if it wants to survive it better be a lot different than today.
The Democrat party will also be different too FYI. Parties change; neither are dying. -
Con_Alma
The friction exists in what each side of the argument believes is "right". With that disagreement unsettled there will not be an agreement of the "fix".ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778488 wrote:...
You can't make things right by exclusion of wealth. ... -
QuakerOatsDr Winston O'Boogie;1778474 wrote:I agree with Zwick on this. The scare tactic that big corporations will leave our shores is just that. I have worked for twenty years for publicly traded companies. Corporations do provide economic benefit. But they also take a great deal of benefit and spirit away from our society. I have zero problem with them being forced to pay a reasonable rate of tax. And the executives and officers that drink off the teet can take a little pain.
They aren't scare tactics; they just leave. This week it is Johnson Controls and Tyco doing a tax inversion ---- Hqtr's moving to Ireland.
Capital always flows to where it is treated the best; if you want continued offshoring then keep taxing corp's at the highest rates (marginal and effective) in the world. Brilliant. -
rrfan
I will say this if both parties did go away maybe then some things could be done. I had to laugh last week when they said government was shut down due to the storm last Friday. Seems like they have been shut down for years....sleeper;1778491 wrote:Again, you're delusional and buying into the BS.
The Democrat party will also be different too FYI. Parties change; neither are dying. -
sleeper
Maybe the latter of you statement is untrue but the former is mostly true. There is the group of rich people of inherited/generational wealth that didn't do anything to earn their money however that is mostly an exception. not the rule. The left likes to pretend its the rule because it fits their narrative better and makes it easy to wage class warfare. The reality is, poor people and Democrats don't see the failure and the sacrifice of those who are rich and instead want to demonize the eventual success as those people being greedy.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778488 wrote: Quit with the "rich worked hard for their money, poor people are lazy". It's lazy and untrue. -
queencitybuckeye
This. I had someone say with a straight face that raising one's taxes has no effect on their freedom. Absurd.Con_Alma;1778489 wrote:My concern is that the solutions seem to function as if the private wealth belongs to the economy collectively. It doesn't and it shouldn't. -
sleeper
I think the parties are going the other direction and becoming more polarized as time goes on. That's why nothing gets done; its no longer about moving to the center to get things done, it's about making the other side look bad for political points.rrfan;1778495 wrote:I will say this if both parties did go away maybe then some things could be done. I had to laugh last week when they said government was shut down due to the storm last Friday. Seems like they have been shut down for years....
Obama hasn't helped; Hillary/Bernie won't help. The reality is no matter who is elected, the government will still not get much done. -
like_that
I love how this nutritionalist cites bernie's website on how he plans to pay for all his program as if it is set in gold. Good luck getting one of those plans passed. It will be a bipartisan vote for "no." It also doesn't take into consideration bernie's other policies that would affect the economy (i.e. minimum wage), not to mention how his plans wouldn't cover the project $15T to $19T cost of his plans. Ultimately like any other socialist plan, this will more than likely lower the median household income. The gap between the poor and rich might tighten just a bit, but everyone will be making less money. Congrats, you are still poor (most likely poorer) and the rich are still rich, but I guess you can be happy that the rich don't make as much money. You showed those evil rich people! It's a "i am taking my ball and going home" mentality.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778398 wrote:http://datatitian.com/bernie-tax/
so... contrary to popular belief on this site (and the right..which is pretty much one in the same), the middle class isn't getting hammered by Bernie. 70% of Americans save money under his plan.
I think every bernie supporters should be required to macro and micro economics. I am no expert in the two and it wasn't my favorite course, but I did take both and I at least have a basic understanding.
What do you expect? Everything zwick touches turns into gold. Don't believe me? Just ask him.SportsAndLady;1778455 wrote:This thread has gone exactly how I thought.
1) zwick being a complete dick to anyone who disagrees with him.
2) zwick spins this aggressive tax plan to be good for all but the rich, because, you know, they're rich! Why should we not tax them more?
3) zwick making personal attacks because they don't agree with him.
Carry on!
This.sleeper;1778470 wrote:Here's the actual reality of Bernie's plan. The tax increases won't come anywhere near the revenue needed to cover all these entitlement programs so they US will continue to rapidly produce unsustainable deficits that we will ultimately pass down to the next generation.
Now cue BS to tell us that US debt doesn't matter because its in our own currency and there are no downsides to having trillions of dollars of debt as long as its in USD.
Yup, it pretty is a slipper slope for them to eventually increase taxes, when they realize their plan is flawed and the math isn't even close to adding up.sleeper;1778471 wrote:I also wanted to add that when the deficits ultimately get much bigger, Bernie and the trash will blame the rich again for "not paying their fair share" and the beat will go on.
At least you got this right. If Bernie was president he would be a lame duck for 4 years, before being replaced. The only positive out of this is maybe people will grow up and realize socialism isn't even close to the answer.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778475 wrote:Well actually the sad reality is he'll not have near the support to get anything done.
I wouldn't care if the GOP died, but I doubt they do. At the very worst a third and eventual majority party will rise out of this that has more of a focus on libertarianism. I hope the GOP can look in the mirror and realize they need to shift this way, especially give up on their petty social stances, which is what hurts the party the most.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778478 wrote:He has the majority of millennials and I'm sure that scares you and the GOP to death... to know it's a dying party.
This as well. Millenials and young voters are all about that ideological bullshit until they actually get a real job and start paying taxes. If the GOP slowly shifted away from their petty social stances the DNC would be in trouble.sleeper;1778482 wrote:Dying party. Controls Congress.
BTW, the majority of young people typically lean left and somehow the GOP still exists. The GOP will likely be much different 20 years from now but to say its a "dying party" is delusional at best.
Also, let's not act like it is all peaches and roses with the democrats. All I see is the mainstream media focus on how the GOP fears Trump. I will willing to bet the DNC fears Bernie winning the primary just as much. Also, I have been hearing this shit about the GOP dying for awhile now. Remember when they were apparently dying after the 2008 election? How about the 2012 election? Or how about after the government shutdown? The facts don't support the narrative that zwick and other liberals are eating up. Ever since Obama took office, the dems have lost 900+ state legislature seats, 12 governors, 69 house seats, and 13 senate seats. Typically what happens in your state government affects you way more than the federal policies that are coming down. Which party is dying again?
They are already leaving, might as well take more from them anyway! /zwicklogicsleeper;1778480 wrote:They won't leave the US but they will move at the margin operations overseas. We already see it happening with tax havens so what gives you any confidence that increasing the tax rate even more will ultimately increase federal tax receipts?
The reality is, you'll greatly increase the incentive for companies to keep money and build new operations overseas while vastly decreasing on the margin investment opportunities in the US. I think these tax policies plus the environment that would allow such policies to exist will force companies to become super lean and shed jobs left and right.
Tl;dr: Bernie would be a disaster.
The sooner people understand that smart people will be rich and idiots will be poor, then we can start moving in the right direction. No matter the policy, rich people will find a way to make money. Poor people can have free shit given to them and they'll still remain poor. And the middle class gets boned on both ends.sleeper;1778497 wrote:Maybe the latter of you statement is untrue but the former is mostly true. There is the group of rich people of inherited/generational wealth that didn't do anything to earn their money however that is mostly an exception. not the rule. The left likes to pretend its the rule because it fits their narrative better and makes it easy to wage class warfare. The reality is, poor people and Democrats don't see the failure and the sacrifice of those who are rich and instead want to demonize the eventual success as those people being greedy. -
ZWICK 4 PREZ
hardly. The GOP will be fine being fiscally conservative. The days of legislating morality are over and will kill the GOP if they don't move away from it. Ultimately I think they will because they know they have to.sleeper;1778491 wrote:Again, you're delusional and buying into the BS.
The Democrat party will also be different too FYI. Parties change; neither are dying. -
Con_AlmaZWICK 4 PREZ;1778504 wrote:hardly. The GOP will be fine being fiscally conservative. The days of legislating morality are over and will kill the GOP if they don't move away from it. Ultimately I think they will because they know they have to.
I don't have a problem with the GOP withering away if their core convictions don't reflect the shifts in society. I do have a problem with the party shifting away from their core convictions to pander to voters. -
like_that
I agree with you here, which is what I said in my post above. They shift away from petty social stances, they will be gaining a lot of new votes. I have a lot of friends who are on the same page as the GOP with many issues, but they specifically don't vote for them because of their social biblical stances. I think the GOP is slowly starting to realize this, but they are also catering to their older voters. They are playing with a fine line, and they can't do a complete 180 over night.ZWICK 4 PREZ;1778504 wrote:hardly. The GOP will be fine being fiscally conservative. The days of legislating morality are over and will kill the GOP if they don't move away from it. Ultimately I think they will because they know they have to.