The CT shooting and gun control
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gut
I understand what it is. But what was likely a pretty weak door can be weakened enough with an automatic to easily kick it in. And the point of breaching is it isn't tactical to unload 20 rounds into a lock, so I wouldn't say he couldn't have shot the lock out with enough bullets.LJ;1344554 wrote:No. Breaching involves actually shooting out the whole jamb with a LARGE projectile with a TON of force behind it.
.223 bullets are barely larger than a .22 -
LJ
That's not how it works. And it wasn't an automatic weapon.gut;1344852 wrote:I understand what it is. But what was likely a pretty weak door can be weakened enough with an automatic to easily kick it in. And the point of breaching is it isn't tactical to unload 20 rounds into a lock, so I wouldn't say he couldn't have shot the lock out with enough bullets. -
gut
Or for fuck's sake. It's an assault rifle - I can't pump 15 or so shots into a door in 20 seconds...and you think there's a door left for the lock to keep shut?LJ;1344868 wrote:That's not how it works. And it wasn't an automatic weapon. -
LJ
From a 55gr bullet? Yes, absolutely.gut;1344890 wrote:Or for fuck's sake. It's an assault rifle - I can't pump 15 or so shots into a door in 20 seconds...and you think there's a door left for the lock to keep shut?
And 15 shots in 20 seconds is really slow. I can get 6 shots out of a pump shotgun in 5 seconds -
GoChiefs
If it's a halfway decent door? Yes.gut;1344890 wrote:Or for fuck's sake. It's an assault rifle - I can't pump 15 or so shots into a door in 20 seconds...and you think there's a door left for the lock to keep shut? -
gut
In a square foot around the lock? A 60-yr old lady would be able to kick it in after a dozen or so decently placed shots.GoChiefs;1344897 wrote:If it's a halfway decent door? Yes. -
LJ
LOLgut;1344900 wrote:In a square foot around the lock? A 60-yr old lady would be able to kick it in at that point.
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gut
LMAO about 15-20 shots where the bolt goes into the frame and there's barely any wood left even holding the lock in the door. It's not like you need to take out huge chunks of wood.LJ;1344904 wrote:LOL -
LJ
Have you ever shot a gun?gut;1344908 wrote:LMAO about 15-20 shots around the lock the size of your fist and there's barely any wood left even holding the lock in the door. It's not like you need to take out huge chunks of wood.
It doesn't work like that -
GoChiefs
gut;1344908 wrote:LMAO about 15-20 shots around the lock the size of your fist and there's barely any wood left even holding the lock in the door. It's not like you need to take out huge chunks of wood.
I didnt read this whole thread, but who said it was a wooden door? You are seriously overestimating the power of this weapon on something thats not flesh. -
gut
What doesn't work? When I shoot around the lock the bullets go somewhere else? He's got hundreds of rounds and doesn't need to perfectly cut out the lock like a sharp shooter, just weaken the frame enough to make the lock structurally unable to perform its duty.LJ;1344909 wrote:Have you ever shot a gun?
It doesn't work like that
Regardless, I doubt he couldn't have just kicked in the door to begin with. -
LJ
It took Mythbusters almost 3,000 rounds of 7.62 to cut down a small tree
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gut
Who says it wasn't? We can be pretty certain it wasn't reinforced steel. Metal sheet at best and 15-20 holes around the lock are still going to cause a structural failing once it's kicked.GoChiefs;1344910 wrote:I didnt read this whole thread, but who said it was a wooden door? You are seriously overestimating the power of this weapon on something thats not flesh. -
GoChiefs
No, it's not.gut;1344921 wrote:Metal sheet at best and 15-20 holes around the lock are still going to cause a structural failing once it's kicked. -
gut
Yeah, because that's a really fucking good comparison.LJ;1344919 wrote:It took Mythbusters almost 3,000 rounds of 7.62 to cut down a small tree
Classroom doors aren't designed to maintain integrity against a barrage of bullets. It's laughable we are even having this discussion. They are designed to withstand a few good kicks, maybe. -
gut
Oh really, so losing 40-50% of the metal around a lock the size of your fist won't cause bending and warping when it's kicked, leading to failure?GoChiefs;1344924 wrote:No, it's not.
Those doors are not designed for that, there's been no justification for the costs of such doors prior to this. -
GoChiefs
gut;1344928 wrote:Oh really, so losing 40-50% of the metal around a lock the size of your fist won't cause bending and warping when it's kicked, leading to failure?
Those doors are not designed for that, there's been no justification for the costs of such doors prior to this.
Like I said, you are grossly overestimating what that gun is going to do. We will obviously just agree to disagree. -
LJ
Yes, it is a good comparison. It took 3,000 rounds of bullets twice the size of the ones the shooter had, and more velocity to bring down a small, untreated tree. It is laughable, because it's pretty obvious you have no idea what a 55gr .223 can do.gut;1344926 wrote:Yeah, because that's a really fucking good comparison.
Classroom doors aren't designed to maintain integrity against a barrage of bullets. It's laughable we are even having this discussion. They are designed to withstand a few good kicks, maybe. -
gut
Most doors are maybe 3/4 inch thick. You are grossly overestimating what has to be done to weaken the door to the point of structural failing. You're comparing a frickin' tree to a couple square inches of door that need to be removed, if that.LJ;1344950 wrote:Yes, it is a good comparison. It took 3,000 rounds of bullets twice the size of the ones the shooter had, and more velocity to bring down a small, untreated tree. It is laughable, because it's pretty obvious you have no idea what a 55gr .223 can do.
Agree to disagree. Most doors that aren't specially reinforced can be kicked in by a good-sized man. There's not a lot of damage that would need to be done to make it so almost anyone could kick it in. -
WebFire
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gut
Not at all. Is it not going to put a hole in the door? If not, you are grossly overestimating what that door almost certainly is. You seem to think the lock has to be carved out like a cookie cutter. Nothing remotely close to that for it to fail. Like I said, standard locks aren't designed with the idea that they will maintain integrity when even a little part of the door is blown away.GoChiefs;1344944 wrote:Like I said, you are grossly overestimating what that gun is going to do. We will obviously just agree to disagree. -
LJ
I'm not, the jamb is what gives way when a door is kicked in, not the door. Trust me, I hate to say it, but years and years of being around 100's upon 100's of rental units, I've seen a lot of doors kicked in. I've never had to repair a door, only a jamb.gut;1344960 wrote:Most doors are maybe 3/4 inch thick. You are grossly overestimating what has to be done to weaken the door to the point of structural failing. You're comparing a frickin' tree to a couple square inches of door that need to be removed, if that.
Agree to disagree. Most doors that aren't specially reinforced can be kicked in by a good-sized man. There's not a lot of damage that would need to be done to make it so almost anyone could kick it in. -
gut
Yawn. Again, that is dealing specifically with shooting the lock itself. If there's no structure around the lock it ain't going to work like it's designed.WebFire;1344962 wrote:Possible, but very unlikely.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootOutTheLock -
gut
Because the jam is weaker. But if you remove part of the door around the lock obviously that isn't going to be the case.LJ;1344965 wrote:I'm not, the jamb is what gives way when a door is kicked in, not the door. Trust me, I hate to say it, but years and years of being around 100's upon 100's of rental units, I've seen a lot of doors kicked in. I've never had to repair a door, only a jamb. -
LJ
*sigh*gut;1344972 wrote:Because the jam is weaker. But if you remove part of the door around the lock obviously that isn't going to be the case.