US Army "Kill Team" in posed pictures with dead Afg. Civilians

• ou1980

  fish82;720874 wrote:Barely...not surprising.

  
  http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2011/03/21/breaking-obamas-abu-ghraib-the-stuff-hits-the-fan/
• I Wear Pants

  Writerbuckeye;720885 wrote:So you also don't blame Americans for seeing a terrorist in every Muslim, right?

  Incorrect. I said American soldiers. Not Americans.
• thavoice

  Belly35;720872 wrote:.. This is just from the experience.
  
  Day after day soldiers witness death, lose of friends, close encounter with their own death and brutality beyond many of your imagination, only to encounter the same the next day or within the next second. They live with it day and night, it gets easy and unemotional ….. just a job, duty and mission.
  “Killing teams” .. “Baby killer”is just a name to sell the article and to make drama more intense. To vivify those that do what many refuse to grasp. This are soldiers men and women who are our neighbors, friends and relative doing a job ..called “War”. Where the reporting of the other side those horrendous actions of rape, murder and forced bomb vest on handicap children and pregnant women? Difficult to document and photo those events of wrong in time of War.
  
  War is that where people on all side die, where killing is the part of the equation and death of citizen are collateral damage. This the same war where the enemy beheaded, hanged and burned American bodies on bridges, in allies and basements for TV media views pleasure. Where reporters are killed, social worker murdered and civilian contractor plead for their lives only to be forgotten by the events of the next days horror.
  War has no boundary of a soldier’s behavior they become emotionally detached, unless you smelled the decay of death, burning of bullet wound flesh and the sounds of dyeing you can’t be judge of their actions.
  
  Limitation on actions of combat soldiers does not prevent nor stop what seem to be grossly wrong on the youtube, primetime and printed media photos. It magnifies the potential of wrong and increases the backlash of being a soldier. It gets easy to be (quote) “Killing Team” taking photos, video and cell phones pics …trophy, reminders, documentation ….. why? I don’t know but it does happen I can attest to this http://www.psywarrior.com/DeathCardsAce.html I’m not defending their action but unless you been there that very second that the first crack of a AK47 you will never know what happens in the minds and the event that moment in the life of a American Soldier your neighbor, co-worker, friend and relative ….. While you sleep in comfort with the insurance of our military, that American soldier rest for only a few minutes with blood from yesterday.
  
  Blame the grunt it’s easy, video, photo and pics all tell the story of wrong …. blemish others soldiers good deeds and provides fuel for the weak…
  
  I stand solid with these guys in support … not for what they did but for who they are “American Soldiers”…….
  
  …..There are no winners in WAR only survivors, victims and death….

  
  Wow. Very, very good. Although I have not yet seen the trials of war it is likely I will within the year. That may have been the single most bestestestest post I have read.
• I Wear Pants

  Belly35;720872 wrote:.. This is just from the experience.
  
  Day after day soldiers witness death, lose of friends, close encounter with their own death and brutality beyond many of your imagination, only to encounter the same the next day or within the next second. They live with it day and night, it gets easy and unemotional ….. just a job, duty and mission.
  “Killing teams” .. “Baby killer”is just a name to sell the article and to make drama more intense. To vivify those that do what many refuse to grasp. This are soldiers men and women who are our neighbors, friends and relative doing a job ..called “War”. Where the reporting of the other side those horrendous actions of rape, murder and forced bomb vest on handicap children and pregnant women? Difficult to document and photo those events of wrong in time of War.
  
  War is that where people on all side die, where killing is the part of the equation and death of citizen are collateral damage. This the same war where the enemy beheaded, hanged and burned American bodies on bridges, in allies and basements for TV media views pleasure. Where reporters are killed, social worker murdered and civilian contractor plead for their lives only to be forgotten by the events of the next days horror.
  War has no boundary of a soldier’s behavior they become emotionally detached, unless you smelled the decay of death, burning of bullet wound flesh and the sounds of dyeing you can’t be judge of their actions.

  
  I disagree with the bolded. If these soldiers actually did murder this civilian as the reports claim then they're wrong as hell and it doesn't matter that they're in a war zone and under stress. That sort of thing is unacceptable in any situation. Again, that's assuming they murdered this guy like is reported. Don't need to have been a soldier to know that's wrong.
• stlouiedipalma

  Writerbuckeye;720885 wrote:So you also don't blame Americans for seeing a terrorist in every Muslim, right?

  
  Good point.
• I Wear Pants

  How so?
• believer

  

  Writerbuckeye;720885 wrote:So you also don't blame Americans for seeing a terrorist in every Muslim, right?

  This should be good.........
• stlouiedipalma

  We say that people around the world will see these photos and get the impression that all Americans are this way. Why is that any different than seeing extremist Muslims commit acts of terrorism and coming to the conclusion that all Muslims are terrorists?
  
  Of course we know that both descriptions are wrong, but we cannot have it both ways. If we accept one premise we have to accept the other as well.
• I Wear Pants

  Oh, well I said that they might not like American soldiers because of this. I don't think anyone rational will or should view all Americans or all American soldiers negatively because of this.
  
  However, I don't think it would be wrong for people touched by this incident to dislike American soldiers because of this. Much like I understand why people affected by 9/11 could harbour negative feelings for Muslims. But beyond people affected I don't think it's reasonable to make broad assumptions of large populations of people based on the misdeeds of a few. This is where people in the Middle East as well as the US are in the wrong.
  
  Just IMO.
• Belly35

  

  “Murder” I think not
  
  What I see is a squad that entered into that area of “easy” and beyond.
  In my last post I mentioned “it get easy” … easy to just forgot the reality of death and dying to move forward without emotional ties to what happens the next day, second or mission. Some of you this will be difficult to understand the next part.
  Along with this “easy” comes another “easier” that complete unemotional connection to the respect for human life. “killing get easy”.
  When anger, frustration, depression, hopelessness, inconsistency and unemotional link between surviving or dying is lost, so goes the respect for human life and their own
  How did this squad or other squad get to this point…. To many mission, deployment, to long in the field, to unemotional and day to day dealing with dying. Are there other factors that present itself to this deterioration of the American Soldier that would do such an act? Look beyond the grunt, look at the restricted methods, inconsistency of the government, mix messages of leadership, onslaught of accusation, directive for victory, plan for success, split of governmental support and all the other messages. … War is not for the weak hearted and half committed …. People die, lives change and victims come home
  
  While the tag “Murder” is easily applied to Killing Team and or Baby Killer and the transition to blame the America “Grunt” Soldier is acceptable to some. It’s not that simple people… I stand firm my support for those American Soldier our neighbors, friends, co-worker and relatives.
  
  Where is the failure/blame lie in this wrong action in an arena of War and Combat mission?
  
  The answer is how we choose to fight our Wars not those that do the fighting.
• I Wear Pants

  So soldiers should be allowed to do things like this without repercussion?
• tsst_fballfan

  

  Belly35;721559 wrote:... Where is the failure/blame lie in this wrong action in an arena of War and Combat mission? ...

  Mostly in DC IMHO.
• Belly35

  

  Unless you’re willing to prosecute every member of the Chain of Command at approved those soldiers for deployment an number of times without evaluation, every Congress and Senate individual that flip flopped on the support and approval of the war, approved legislation limiting the resources to be effective in acquiring information and fighting the enemy or denied knowledge of those methods interrogations, every Public Servant that did not salute the America Flag, sent military force without the approval of Congress, does not adhere to Constitution, disrespects the doctrine of the Constitution, that bows and discredit the achievement of the Armed forces and every public figures that is not Proud to be America ….. should also be accountable ?
  
  However I did not say that the Soldiers should not be accountable …. They should not be vilified
  
  War is about killing and collateral damage happens…. Lose of rank, evaluation, early discharge (honorable).
  
  Out of hundred of missions, hundreds of fire fights, road side bombs, witnessing of dead and wounded America soldiers/ friends, endless patrols to no where but death ….why this demand for prosecution? Because of dead civilian … sorry .. I have no compassion? Because some media reports tags about the Killing Teams but that same reporter hope the hell that this squad is the one who will come if he is being held captive and so would many of you. Because photo where taken, because fingers are missing tell that to the 9/11 parents, husband, wives and children who have no remains, to the beheaded social worker, contractor, hanging soldier from a bridge and the reporter being video begging for his life, explain that to the women raped and children with bomb vest… sorry … a civilian died meaninglessly… so. Where the story of this Killing Team that saved the lives of civilian, help protect the children, prevented the raping of woman, removed the fear from their town and provide food, medical support to the community. Dead civilian ..... in a wrongful act … WAR is not a perfect world …
  
  When this is all over the Soldiers of this wrong act will bare the heavy burden of their actions. Will that be enough …. ?
  
  or do you want to destroy more families, homes and futures of those American Soldiers… friends, co-worker, hometown football hero, husband, wife or a parent because of ….. collateral damage
  
  …I would want those soldiers in my squad and so would you if you wanted to survive…
• dwccrew

  

  Belly35;721703 wrote:Unless you’re willing to prosecute every member of the Chain of Command at approved those soldiers for deployment an number of times without evaluation, every Congress and Senate individual that flip flopped on the support and approval of the war, approved legislation limiting the resources to be effective in acquiring information and fighting the enemy or denied knowledge of those methods interrogations, every Public Servant that did not salute the America Flag,

  
  I stopped reading at this point. You're serious? Hold the entire chain of command accountable? That is the most insane idea I have ever heard. You can't hold anyone except, possibly, the soldiers direct CO accountable. This is like holding a police chief and mayor accountable when a rogue cop beats a citizen. Terrible thought process.
  
  If there is no direct contact with people, how can we hold them accountable for what these soldiers did? I guess with your logic all US voters should be held accountable for electing the politicians that gave or approved the order for military intervention and then blame the generals and then blame right on down the chain of command. Dumb!
• stlouiedipalma

  Right on, dwccrew. Go back and look at what happened in My Lai. Calley tried to push off the responsibility to Medina and it didn't work. Unless an actual order was given to commit atrocities the blame lies with those who did it.
• Tiger2003

  

  Who gives a fuck. I know I sure don't. I posed for picture with dead person! Does that make me a bad person? Fuck no it don't.
• queencitybuckeye

  Tiger2003;721788 wrote:Who gives a fuck. I know I sure don't. I posed for picture with dead person! Does that make me a bad person? Fuck no it don't.

  
  Maybe, maybe not. In your case, stupid is not subject to debate.
• Tiger2003

  

  queencitybuckeye;721818 wrote:Maybe, maybe not. In your case, stupid is not subject to debate.

  
  How am I stupid? What is stupid is the people on here judging people for a picture they took. How many of you have been in there shoes? I know a couple of you have but I know most of you have not.
• bases_loaded

  

  "According to a copy of the plea agreement, which was obtained by The Associated Press, Morlock agreed to testify against his co-defendants. In his plea deal, Morlock said he and others slaughtered the three civilians knowing that they were unarmed and posed no legitimate threat.
  
  He also described taking a lead role in the January incident -- lobbing a grenade at the civilian while another soldier shot at him, and then lying about it to his squad leader."
  
  Tiger I don't think your situation and this one were the same. These guys knowingly killed innocent civilians and posed with them. Like I said earlier, something I'd never expect to see with the title Marine in it, but wasn't completely surprised when it had Army in the title.
• Belly35

  

  Who denied that wrong was done?
  
  To compare My Lai or any other combat situation with another is just unconscionable. What happens in that first millisecond of a fire fight and what proceeds after is never beyond comparison to one event to another.
  
  To call Tiger2003 stupid is unjustified ignorance.
  
  Combat environment has no normality, no guideline of behavior, preconceived reaction what was once your idea of normal is no more (those could get you killed) …. New set of protective norm behavior devices are established. So to call Tiger2003 stupid is wrong because you don’t have a clue of what is required to live in that environment or survive the daily trauma.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  I can't ever speak like I've been in those soldiers shoes, Belly, but I can't imagine that you're (any soldier) so friggen zoned out in killing mode that you break out the camera so that you can keep your little Kodak moment forever.
  
  And while I agree with alot of your points or not (I have), the people who did that don't deserve the title of "American Soldier". They need to be dishonorably discharged. Look, I understand and accept that civilians are killed in war. I don't like it, but I understand the necessity. That's one thing. It's a whole other thing to decide to kill civilians and then take pictures of your mess like it's some kind of prize.
• Tiger2003

  

  I guess I am a murder!!!
• CenterBHSFan

  

  You don't think there's anything wrong with purposely killing civilians and then having pictures taken of it like you're on holiday?
  What? You put those in your wallet so you can show them like pics of your family or what? So you can take it out at night and reminisce? Put them on facebook? Joke around with your comrads about that time you picked off civilians for sport?
  
  I'm sorry but there's something wrong with people in their brains who think like that and do those sorts of things.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  Oh, here's a pic of my wife/husband. There's out 4 yr. old daughter, Aunt Martha at her son's wedding, my 9 yr. old son, oh and here's a special pic of my fellow soldiers one fine day when we killed some civilians and then took pictures of it. I look at this pic from time to time to remember the good ole days"
• dwccrew

  

  Tiger2003;722126 wrote:I guess I am a murder!!!

  
  So you knowlingly killed civilians and then posed with them or did you kill an enemy combatant and then pose? There is quite a difference between the 2 situations.