Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

• wkfan

  jmog;965278 wrote:I would say that the way you described teachers is at best 10-20% of HS teachers and nearly zero on any grade school or middle school.
  
  Hardly ANY teachers that are teaching math have a math degree and just happen to get a teaching cert. Most get an education degree and just take the required math courses in college to be certified to teach HS math.
  
  I would venture to say that most HS teachers have teaching degrees with having enough coursework to be certified in their respective courses.
  
  Trust me, I WISH most HS math teachers actually had a math degree, physics teachers had a physics degree, etc because that would make them much better teachers on the subject in my opinion.
  
  When I taught, the more classes you actually had ABOVE the given subject, the more knowledgeable you were making you a better teacher.
  
  For instance, if one was teaching pre-calculus. Having aced pre-calculus would not be suffiecient in teaching the subject. Tutoring maybe, but not teaching. I would say that a teacher should have 2 years of full blown calculus (in semester colleges that is Calc 1, 2, 3, and differential equations) before they should be able to teach pre-calculus. The main reason is that if one has a much greater understanding of the subject, even the parts of the subject that you will NEVER teach, it opens up different avenues of explaination when questions arise in class.
  
  You might be right when it comes to history, psychology, etc that a greater number of those teachers actually have degrees in the field they teach and then get a teaching certificate. However, in math, physics, chemistry, etc that is WAY off. Hardly any in those fields at the HS level have BS degrees in the field they teach.
  
  It would be great if they did, but they do not.

  While I agree with most of what you said...the trend currently is to have teachers get undergrad degrees in their subject matter and take graduate courses in teaching methods. Many fo the better districts prefer this model due to the greater depth of knowledge in the subject mater that it brings.
  
  My point was that this is the trend of the future...not of the past. Not to mention, what I said is how it does happen today for many.
• jmog

  bigdaddy2003;964988 wrote:I was just about to post this. I know a lot of people that couldn't tell you what was going but that they had friends/family who were union members that may be affected.

  Most of my "FB" friends were of this sort. Those that work in the public were puting it all over FB about "vote for my rights" and many of their friends never even read the bill/Issue voted no basically because their friends saiid so.
• jmog

  LJ;965022 wrote:They still have to be tested though. I am actually offended that you would put a freaking teacher on the same level as a Dr. or a Lawyer. My wife is a Veterinarian and I can tell you that a teacher is nowhere on her level of education, sacrfice, or practical knowledge BEFORE licensure.

  I've found in my days 2 things when it comes to education majors in college and later teachers.
  
  1. They believe their degree is just as hard to obtain as many others (engineering, science related like pre-med, law degrees, etc) and should be paid accordingly.
  2. They are wrong. MANY people I went to college with who couldn't pass the coursework in engineering or science related fields transferred to the college of education and graduated with no problems.
• HitsRus

  

  ^^^6I don't think it is going to change. All you have to do is look at the events surrounding Greece to get a feel for that kind of mentality.
• jmog

  wkfan;965045 wrote:What was their undergrad degree in? I would bet it is in Math EDUCATION, English, EDUCATION, etc. These courses of study are light in the subject matter (i.e. Mathematics, English) and contain courses in Education.
  
  As I stated very explicitely in my example, many people are getting their undergrad degree in their subject matter..i.e. Mathematics. You cannot teach as a regular classroom teacher in the State of Ohio with a Bachelor Degree in Mathematics without taking coursework in Education methods, etc in order to qualify for a teaching license.
  
  Please re-read my original post and you will find that is exactly the picture that I painted.

  I'm sorry, but you are sadly mistaken if you think a BS in education with certification in high school level mathematics is anywhere CLOSE to the mathematics coursework required for a BS in mathematics.
  
  Are there SOME teachers that have a BS in mathematics and then got a teaching certification, yes.
  Is this the norm? Not even close, you are stretching facts, most HS math teachers were education majors that took enough math classes to be certified to teach math. There is a HUGE difference in the coursework requirements.
• sleeper

  

  jmog;965299 wrote:I've found in my days 2 things when it comes to education majors in college and later teachers.
  
  1. They believe their degree is just as hard to obtain as many others (engineering, science related like pre-med, law degrees, etc) and should be paid accordingly.
  2. They are wrong. MANY people I went to college with who couldn't pass the coursework in engineering or science related fields transferred to the college of education and graduated with no problems.

  +1000
• se-alum

  

  O-Trap;965243 wrote:He literally said that people with 13 years of education on the matter don't need 4 more. You ASSUMED that meant he doesn't think they need ANY more, but that's not what he said in a literal sense.

  Exactly.
• jmog

  wkfan;965292 wrote:While I agree with most of what you said...the trend currently is to have teachers get undergrad degrees in their subject matter and take graduate courses in teaching methods. Many fo the better districts prefer this model due to the greater depth of knowledge in the subject mater that it brings.
  
  My point was that this is the trend of the future...not of the past. Not to mention, what I said is how it does happen today for many.

  I hope that to be true, someone with a math degree with some teaching classes would be a MUCH better teacher at the HS level than someone with a teaching degree who just took enough classes to teach math.
• BGFalcons82

  

  QuakerOats;965147 wrote:http://www.cleveland.com/obrien/index.ssf/2011/11/issue_2_the_hidden_price_of_no.html
  
  Read it and weep. It is hard to believe how dumb some people are.

  Great article, Oats. But we shouldn't let facts get in the way of "saving the middle class" and "save our police & firefighters!!"
• Glory Days

  

  QuakerOats;965106 wrote:You mean 'public unions' are strong in Ohio .... the state itself is weak, and the backs of middle class taxpayers are broken. Hope you are happy.

  this is dumb. you will be paying the same amout of taxes either way. how does that break your back?
• Glory Days

  

  QuakerOats;965147 wrote:http://www.cleveland.com/obrien/index.ssf/2011/11/issue_2_the_hidden_price_of_no.html
  
  Read it and weep. It is hard to believe how dumb some people are.

  So what about the other side of the article.."If Issue 2 passes, layoff still will happen..."
• ernest_t_bass

  

  LJ;965107 wrote:So you think your mother can be completely emotionally detached from her son on an issue that would affect him directly?
  
  Seriously now.

  
  My mother actually voted yes, and I respect her for that.
• Gblock

  jmog;965308 wrote:I'm sorry, but you are sadly mistaken if you think a BS in education with certification in high school level mathematics is anywhere CLOSE to the mathematics coursework required for a BS in mathematics.
  
  Are there SOME teachers that have a BS in mathematics and then got a teaching certification, yes.
  Is this the norm? Not even close, you are stretching facts, most HS math teachers were education majors that took enough math classes to be certified to teach math. There is a HUGE difference in the coursework requirements.

  
  teaching is also an art. it is more than just knowing information, you are failing to mention this. much of what you gain in experience is not what you know, but what you can teach to others and get them to remember it as well. i know lots of smart guys who would never be able to teach. the best teachers are those who can do both, but many of the best teachers i had werent the smartest
• BRF

  

  Gblock;965465 wrote:teaching is also an art. it is more than just knowing information, you are failing to mention this. much of what you gain in experience is not what you know, but what you can teach to others and get them to remember it as well. i know lots of smart guys who would never be able to teach. the best teachers are those who can do both, but many of the best teachers i had werent the smartest

  BRF gives a stamp of approval to this. :thumbup: (imo, of course)
• BRF

  

  ernest_t_bass;965433 wrote:bated

  
• ernest_t_bass

  

  BRF;965476 wrote:

  
  Lol... Oops. "Voted."
• O-Trap

  

  Maybe she did both. YOU DON'T KNOW!
• I Wear Pants

  Glory Days;957651 wrote:John Glenn voting no on Issue 2!........

  John Glenn is a joke. I had to listen to that motherfucker give a speech on education in San Diego in like 99 or something. It was awful. Even if it wasn't awful, why the hell do I care what John Glenn thinks about a political issue?
• I Wear Pants

  QuakerOats;965074 wrote:Maybe I should rephrase it for your benefit:
  
  Absent those who directly/indirectly benefit from the public trough, EVERYONE voted for SB5/Issue 2. Get it now?

  Lol are you kidding me?
  
  "Anyone who doesn't agree with me obviously has nefarious reasons for doing so and everyone who does agree with me is part of the glorious intellectual master race who works super hard and is always exploited".
  
  GTFO.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  I Wear Pants;966277 wrote:Lol are you kidding me?
  
  "Anyone who doesn't agree with me obviously has nefarious reasons for doing so and everyone who does agree with me is part of the glorious intellectual master race who works super hard and is always exploited".
  
  GTFO.

  
  Let him rephrase that for you.
• QuakerOats

  I Wear Pants;966277 wrote:Lol are you kidding me?
  
  GTFO.

  
  You (and bonebuzzard) do know math, do you not? See post # 3442.
  It will eventually sink in.
• jmog

  I Wear Pants;966266 wrote:John Glenn is a joke. I had to listen to that motherfucker give a speech on education in San Diego in like 99 or something. It was awful. Even if it wasn't awful, why the hell do I care what John Glenn thinks about a political issue?

  Since he was a politician maybe one should see what he thinks and then agree or disagree with it?
• jmog

  Gblock;965465 wrote:teaching is also an art. it is more than just knowing information, you are failing to mention this. much of what you gain in experience is not what you know, but what you can teach to others and get them to remember it as well. i know lots of smart guys who would never be able to teach. the best teachers are those who can do both, but many of the best teachers i had werent the smartest

  I agree 100% with what you said, there is a reason I never try to tell my kids grade school teachers how to teach math/science even though I know that I know a ton more about math and science than they do. I am not equipped nor do I have the ability nor the patience to teach grade school level math/science. I just don't know how to do it.
  
  What I was talking about was the idea that someone said that a BS in education with the required math classes to teach HS math is basically just like a BS in math with coursework to teach.
  
  This is 100% not true, a BS in math has many more math courses and is much harder than the math coursework required to teach HS math.
• wkfan

  jmog;965308 wrote:I'm sorry, but you are sadly mistaken if you think a BS in education with certification in high school level mathematics is anywhere CLOSE to the mathematics coursework required for a BS in mathematics.
  
  Are there SOME teachers that have a BS in mathematics and then got a teaching certification, yes.
  Is this the norm? Not even close, you are stretching facts, most HS math teachers were education majors that took enough math classes to be certified to teach math. There is a HUGE difference in the coursework requirements.

  I'm thinking that you mis-read my post. We are in agreement that teachers who have an undergrad degree in their subject (i.e. Math, History, English, etc) know their subject matter much better than a teacher with an underdrag degree in Math Education.
  
  I never said, or implied that this is the norm. I did say that education is trending this way currently, and it is a good thing.
• Gblock

  jmog;966347 wrote:I agree 100% with what you said, there is a reason I never try to tell my kids grade school teachers how to teach math/science even though I know that I know a ton more about math and science than they do. I am not equipped nor do I have the ability nor the patience to teach grade school level math/science. I just don't know how to do it.
  
  What I was talking about was the idea that someone said that a BS in education with the required math classes to teach HS math is basically just like a BS in math with coursework to teach.
  
  This is 100% not true, a BS in math has many more math courses and is much harder than the math coursework required to teach HS math.

  
  I get what your saying and to some extent i do agree it is very rigorous, however i know some lawyers and math majors that werent rocket scientists...i will leave the doctors out of that discussion tho...but my point was what may be "harder"for someone in one regard may be "harder" in other aspects. its all relative. doing math problems and passing tests to get a BS in Math may be harder academically for some and maybe not for others. while student teaching other aspects of an education degree may be easy for some and impossible for others.