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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

  • OUdidntknow
    I hate to be rude, but most of you have only posted sh..(crap), you have heard from others. I will make it simple..Kasich is a loose cannon rep. for others with an agenda that will bring just about all of us down that are spending some fun leisurely time here. Let's take every Fireman, Police officer, and Teacher and think about why they got into their careers, not to be rich, but not to be poor either. they did it to make a difference in all of our lives. Contracts and seniority exist out of necessity, I am fairly young and realize that there are some young, productive workers. But when and why did we start depreciating experience. I can tell you that my dad has taught me a lot about many things; he is an electrician, and for me...I would rather have him come in and wire my house than someone who just began their career! As a parent, I would rather have my kids go into a classroom where the teacher has learned from his or her mistakes. No one is perfect, but I highly doubt that you can find many examples where a new teacher outperforms a teacher with experience. As far as lazy, I expect there are lazy people in every profession. If I get to pick who teaches my kids I go with experience, If I get to pick who runs electric in my house I go with experience, and when I get to vote next year I am voting Democrat!
  • fish82
    OUdidntknow;829704 wrote:I hate to be rude, but most of you have only posted sh..(crap), you have heard from others. I will make it simple..Kasich is a loose cannon rep. for others with an agenda that will bring just about all of us down that are spending some fun leisurely time here. Let's take every Fireman, Police officer, and Teacher and think about why they got into their careers, not to be rich, but not to be poor either. they did it to make a difference in all of our lives. Contracts and seniority exist out of necessity, I am fairly young and realize that there are some young, productive workers. But when and why did we start depreciating experience. I can tell you that my dad has taught me a lot about many things; he is an electrician, and for me...I would rather have him come in and wire my house than someone who just began their career! As a parent, I would rather have my kids go into a classroom where the teacher has learned from his or her mistakes. No one is perfect, but I highly doubt that you can find many examples where a new teacher outperforms a teacher with experience. As far as lazy, I expect there are lazy people in every profession. If I get to pick who teaches my kids I go with experience, If I get to pick who runs electric in my house I go with experience, and when I get to vote next year I am voting Democrat!
    Excellent point. Much better to go with the latest episode of "Shit My Dad Says." ;)
  • believer
    OUdidntknow;829704 wrote:If I get to pick who teaches my kids I go with experience, If I get to pick who runs electric in my house I go with experience, and when I get to vote next year I am voting Democrat!
    I sincerely hope that as the years roll by and you gain a little more of your own life experience, you'll begin to think for yourself.
  • Glory Days
    Writerbuckeye;829507 wrote:Except when there's a union, they don't get to decide WHO to lay off, now do they? Those with seniority can bump lower level employees, even if the fire department doesn't want to keep the older fireman because he's gotten lazy and doesn't do as good a job...or for some similar reason. Same with teachers. An excellent first-year teacher will be the first one out the door, even if they are far better at their job than someone else with seniority.

    except $35 million is $35 million no matter who gets laid off. if the firemen, police officers, and teachers negotiate and sign/vote a contract stating who gets laid off when/if that time comes, thats their business, not yours. again, i thought this was money/budget issue, not a union busting issue?

    not only that, but senior employees can always do the work of those below them because they have been there and did that work before. its harder for lower level employees to do the work of senior employees who have more experience etc.
  • Devils Advocate
    believer;829802 wrote:I sincerely hope that as the years roll by and you gain a little more of your own life experience, you'll begin to think for yourself.
    Yes, I used to be religious..until reached the age of reason.
  • Con_Alma
    Glory Days;829371 wrote:is it me, or is Kasich continually trying to distance himself from this plan?
    Don't know, don't care...as long as it is available for us to choose to keep in place or not.
  • believer
    Devils Advocate;829813 wrote:Yes, I used to be religious..until reached the age of reason.
    Now you're just an advocate for satan. ;)
    Con_Alma;829820 wrote:Don't know, don't care...as long as it is available for us to choose to keep in place or not.
    Choice is always a good thing.
  • Writerbuckeye
    Glory Days;829810 wrote:except $35 million is $35 million no matter who gets laid off. if the firemen, police officers, and teachers negotiate and sign/vote a contract stating who gets laid off when/if that time comes, thats their business, not yours. again, i thought this was money/budget issue, not a union busting issue?

    not only that, but senior employees can always do the work of those below them because they have been there and did that work before. its harder for lower level employees to do the work of senior employees who have more experience etc.

    Since when are school boards, fire departments or any other government agency ONLY about saving money? They have quality standards to worry about as well. Why the heck do you think many of us on here want there to be a merit system, as opposed to seniority? We want the BEST to be maintained; and we want local government entities to have that choice...not have it made for them because some employee has been breathing 5 years longer than another.

    The idea of merit pay has ALWAYS been about improving quality, along with having the OPTION of saving money, and giving the authority to do so BACK to those who head up local government bodies. As the system is now, more money is being paid out and there is less control over who gets paid the most, whether they are deserving (quality of work) or not. That's why SB 5 was/is needed.
  • Con_Alma
    believer;829975 wrote:...


    Choice is always a good thing.
    When that choice exists with the people!
  • derek bomar
    Glory Days;829810 wrote:except $35 million is $35 million no matter who gets laid off. if the firemen, police officers, and teachers negotiate and sign/vote a contract stating who gets laid off when/if that time comes, thats their business, not yours. again, i thought this was money/budget issue, not a union busting issue?

    not only that, but senior employees can always do the work of those below them because they have been there and did that work before. its harder for lower level employees to do the work of senior employees who have more experience etc.

    You're wrong
  • derek bomar
    my point was actually referencing something that actually happened Glory... IIRC Mansfield tried to let firefighters go, they were in distress, they didnt have the money to pay them, they didnt need to staff X amount because of the shrinking size of the city, yet were then sued becasue of the contract and Mansfield had to hire back firemen they couldn't afford and didn't need
  • derek bomar
    "3.2 Reduce Fire Department staffing levels by at least 5.0 FTEs.
    Once Mansfield negotiates to eliminate the minimum manning provision (see 3.1), it should
    reduce CMFD staffing levels by at least 5.0 FTEs.     As the City explores options for reducing
    staffing levels, it should ensure the Department’s response times (see 2.5 in the police and
    communications center section) and its ability to provide services consistent with industry
    standards would not be adversely impacted. In addition to these factors, the City should
    take into account its current and projected financial status when determining the extent of
    staffing reductions. For instance, comparisons to the peer average suggest that CMFD
    could operate with 12.0 fewer FTEs.     "

    http://www.auditor.state.oh.us/auditsearch/Reports/2011/City_of_Mansfield_11_Performance-Richland.pdf
  • derek bomar
    one more for good measure

    http://downesfishel.com/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=210
  • Bigdogg
    derek bomar;830088 wrote:one more for good measure

    http://downesfishel.com/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=210

    Sounds like city administration were a bunch of incompetent idiots that signed a minimum staffing agreement. Vote them out.
  • derek bomar
    Bigdogg;830239 wrote:Sounds like city administration were a bunch of incompetent idiots that signed a minimum staffing agreement. Vote them out.

    I believe (could be wrong) that the agreement was signed when Mansfield's population / revenues were higher - so the minimum staffing wasn't that big of a deal. When you have economic turmoil like we've seen over the past few years, you should be able to nullify agreements if you're deemed to be in distress. That's one of the things I think SB5 got right and I don't think it makes sense to argue otherwise.
  • Glory Days
    Writerbuckeye;830005 wrote:Since when are school boards, fire departments or any other government agency ONLY about saving money? They have quality standards to worry about as well. Why the heck do you think many of us on here want there to be a merit system, as opposed to seniority? We want the BEST to be maintained; and we want local government entities to have that choice...not have it made for them because some employee has been breathing 5 years longer than another.

    The idea of merit pay has ALWAYS been about improving quality, along with having the OPTION of saving money, and giving the authority to do so BACK to those who head up local government bodies. As the system is now, more money is being paid out and there is less control over who gets paid the most, whether they are deserving (quality of work) or not. That's why SB 5 was/is needed.

    Ok, you can twist it any way you want, but let me know when Kasich or someone actually states this is about improving quality and not about the money.

    http://www.sb5truth.com/myth-vs-reality/
    "SB 5 will ensure that our communities can balance their budgets and avoid large-scale layoffs of public employees."
    "SB 5 looks beyond this year's budget problem. It recognizes that future budgets could be even worse if Ohio fails to get its fiscal house in order."
    "Ohio's antiquated collective bargaining laws did not cause all of its budget problems, but has certainly played a role. SB 5 equips local governments with the tools to tackle future budgets this year and beyond."


    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/07/13/267954/kasich-budget-opposition/
    "KASICH: What’s driven my negatives up is the fact that we’re trying to rein in and give local communities the abilities to control their costs with public employees… "

    http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2011/04/sb_5_helps_fulfill_kasich_prom.html
    "He has repeatedly called for the elimination of binding arbitration, often used to settle police and fire department salary and benefits disputes that he says are costly and bankrupting cities. "

    "Local governments and taxpayers need control over their budgets," said House Speaker William G. Batchelder, R-Medina. "This bill will give control back to the people who pay the bill."
  • Glory Days
    derek bomar;830266 wrote:I believe (could be wrong) that the agreement was signed when Mansfield's population / revenues were higher - so the minimum staffing wasn't that big of a deal. When you have economic turmoil like we've seen over the past few years, you should be able to nullify agreements if you're deemed to be in distress. That's one of the things I think SB5 got right and I don't think it makes sense to argue otherwise.

    so who makes that determination? someone outside the city, from the state? what happens when you get some mayor who claims economic distress just to find a way to cut staffing levels because he feels like it?
  • Writerbuckeye
    Glory Days;830331 wrote:Ok, you can twist it any way you want, but let me know when Kasich or someone actually states this is about improving quality and not about the money.

    http://www.sb5truth.com/myth-vs-reality/
    "SB 5 will ensure that our communities can balance their budgets and avoid large-scale layoffs of public employees."
    "SB 5 looks beyond this year's budget problem. It recognizes that future budgets could be even worse if Ohio fails to get its fiscal house in order."
    "Ohio's antiquated collective bargaining laws did not cause all of its budget problems, but has certainly played a role. SB 5 equips local governments with the tools to tackle future budgets this year and beyond."


    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/07/13/267954/kasich-budget-opposition/
    "KASICH: What’s driven my negatives up is the fact that we’re trying to rein in and give local communities the abilities to control their costs with public employees… "

    http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2011/04/sb_5_helps_fulfill_kasich_prom.html
    "He has repeatedly called for the elimination of binding arbitration, often used to settle police and fire department salary and benefits disputes that he says are costly and bankrupting cities. "

    "Local governments and taxpayers need control over their budgets," said House Speaker William G. Batchelder, R-Medina. "This bill will give control back to the people who pay the bill."

    When you're promoting a change, you go for the most critical reason that change is needed to convince the voters. In this case, it was reigning in public employee costs that were soaring to unsustainable heights. First and foremost, you want people to understand this will help reign in costs at the local level and give more control to school boards and other local entities.

    That doesn't mean you ignore quality. If that was the case, why would Kasich make such a big deal about merit raises as opposed to seniority? That was a huge part of his rationale for wanting SB 5 passed -- and merit pay is all about finding the best and paying them what they deserve, as opposed to simply writing out a bigger check for the person who's been around the longest.

    If quality wasn't a big issue, merit pay wouldn't have been such a key part of the campaign.
  • BRF
    Merit pay will never work.

    Why?

    (Now I will take a page from writerbuckeye)
    ...Because I say so. F all your opinions. You must listen to me because I am Mr. Know-it-all! ;-)
  • believer
    BRF;830500 wrote:Merit pay will never work.

    Why?

    (Now I will take a page from Glory Days)
    ...Because the NEA says so. Your opinions matter not. You must listen to us because we're the NEA! ;-)
    Fixed
  • ernest_t_bass
    believer;830707 wrote:Fixed

    LOL... so true. But I'm on BRF's side still :)
  • dwccrew
    Glory Days;829810 wrote:except $35 million is $35 million no matter who gets laid off. if the firemen, police officers, and teachers negotiate and sign/vote a contract stating who gets laid off when/if that time comes, thats their business, not yours. again, i thought this was money/budget issue, not a union busting issue?

    not only that, but senior employees can always do the work of those below them because they have been there and did that work before. its harder for lower level employees to do the work of senior employees who have more experience etc.

    I don't know, experience is one factor that makes an employee good; but when we're talking about jobs that involve a physical aspect, such as firefighters or police officers, I'd rather have someone younger and in better shape that can react faster, move quicker, etc.
  • Writerbuckeye
    BRF;830500 wrote:Merit pay will never work.

    Why?

    (Now I will take a page from writerbuckeye)
    ...Because I say so. F all your opinions. You must listen to me because I am Mr. Know-it-all! ;-)

    I get it. You don't like how I express myself and the fact that I actually use reason and logic in my arguments. Those can be a killer to respond to. Believe me, I understand. Now, get yourself a hankie, have a good cry, and come back when you feel a bit more composed. :)
  • BRF
    believer and Writer: I'm laughing. Touche'!
  • derek bomar
    Glory Days;830333 wrote:so who makes that determination? someone outside the city, from the state? what happens when you get some mayor who claims economic distress just to find a way to cut staffing levels because he feels like it?

    the state auditor, duh