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Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

  • jmog
    Footwedge;459698 wrote:To jmog and jayh...here is the exact quote.....

    26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

    The point being....there are quotes from both the New Testament and the Qur'an, that can be taken out of context. As far as me reading the Bible extensively....or reading the Qur'an at all...neither one applies to me. But I have read plenty of articles on the net regarding this.

    My opinion is that the Muslim Religion collectively do not want to kill all of the non believers. And I also don't believe that Jesus wanted anyone killed that were non believers, as the quote above suggests.,

    If my memory is not shot as I'm going off of memory (can't look up Bible verses online at work, but the OC is ok, go figure)...

    In the quote it is still the "ruthless ruler" in the parable/story talking that says bring those to me and have them killed.
  • BoatShoes
    Prescott;459339 wrote:This exactly why the Muslims who want to build the NYC mosque should back off. The good PR that decision would yield is much more important than one mosque.

    I think it would be used by the bad guys to show why young disenfranchised muslims should hate america and attack it. JMHO.
  • Footwedge
    jmog;459728 wrote:If my memory is not shot as I'm going off of memory (can't look up Bible verses online at work, but the OC is ok, go figure)...

    In the quote it is still the "ruthless ruler" in the parable/story talking that says bring those to me and have them killed.
    And as such...a perfect example of how a quote can be taken out of context. Again...I'm no expert on either the Bible or the Qur'an.

    I just think that both religions are filled with people that want to see the afterlife...and live accordingly. Conversely, there are many bad apples from both religions that have bastardized their own religion.

    Pretty disgusting when Hitler claimed he was doing "God's work" in mass killing those who "killed Jesus".
  • GeneralsIcer89
    Those of you criticizing Footwedge for how he used verses from the Bible...can you honestly tell me the context of the passages from the Qu'ran? Or are you just saying a single passage without context that your pastor told you? What's that verse about criticizing the speck in someone's eye when a plank is in yours?
  • Writerbuckeye
    I have no doubt this will be used as a recruiting tool? So what? They use EVERYTHING bad they can come up with (or twist) to do the same thing. This alone is not likely to be any tipping point -- especially when you're dealing with folks who are looking for any excuse they can come up with to hate and kill.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;459751 wrote:And as such...a perfect example of how a quote can be taken out of context. Again...I'm no expert on either the Bible or the Qur'an.

    I just think that both religions are filled with people that want to see the afterlife...and live accordingly. Conversely, there are many bad apples from both religions that have bastardized their own religion.

    Pretty disgusting when Hitler claimed he was doing "God's work" in mass killing those who "killed Jesus".

    So you completely screw up a set of verses, then when you are called out on it you get to say "see, just like the Bible can be taken out of context so can the Qu'ran". How awesome of you.

    You are acting like you did that on purpose.

    To GeneralsIcer: I have read the whole Qu'ran myself, and I also haven't said one word on this thread about what it does or does not say.
  • BRF
    Wow, what a thread! I enjoy reading everybody's take on this, I have to admit that my world was rocked a little bit with tha "Jesus said kill them" business. Where do we get that? But then, I realize that it was footwedge, and enough said. I thank all my brothers on THIS side for giving the good explanations. It reminds me of an earlier game in the Indian's season when he went off about a run should be scored as earned or unearned. Everybody on here agreed about how the official scorer ruled it. But footwedge INSISTED that he was right.. He is like a dog with a bone on certain "points". For an old guy, footwedge, I am surprised that you so often want to stick that "foot" into the dog poo and swirl it up. You are just a pot stirrer, aren't you? ;-)


    P.S. - Don't build the "Mosque".
  • Footwedge
    jmog;459827 wrote:So you completely screw up a set of verses, then when you are called out on it you get to say "see, just like the Bible can be taken out of context so can the Qu'ran". How awesome of you.

    You are acting like you did that on purpose.

    To GeneralsIcer: I have read the whole Qu'ran myself, and I also haven't said one word on this thread about what it does or does not say.
    What? I didn't screw anything up. I looked up the verse....and the apostle quoted Jesus. He said bring them here....and have them killed. And then I rightfully stated that He was taken out of context. What exactly is your problem here?
  • Footwedge
    BRF;459834 wrote:Wow, what a thread! I enjoy reading everybody's take on this, I have to admit that my world was rocked a little bit with tha "Jesus said kill them" business. Where do we get that? But then, I realize that it was footwedge, and enough said. I thank all my brothers on THIS side for giving the good explanations. It reminds me of an earlier game in the Indian's season when he went off about a run should be scored as earned or unearned. Everybody on here agreed about how the official scorer ruled it. But footwedge INSISTED that he was right.. He is like a dog with a bone on certain "points". For an old guy, footwedge, I am surprised that you so often want to stick that "foot" into the dog poo and swirl it up. You are just a pot stirrer, aren't you? ;-)


    P.S. - Don't build the "Mosque".


    Et tu Brute!! How have I stirred the pot? The quote in the Bible is what it is. Good Gawd.

    There are a number of people on this thread that think the entire Muslim religion is evil...that the Qur'an calls for the destruction of all infidels. Well I don't happen to agree with that...at all.

    Just as there are quotes in the New Testament that talks about killing....there are also quotes in the Qur'an that say the same damn thing. Period.

    Both religions preach peace....and most of the people that practice their religion...whether Christian or Muslim, are looking forward to the afterlife. PERIOD.

    Adolph Hitler called himself a Christian....several times...in several speeches. Does that mean that all Christians are mass murderers?

    My take on all this......there is a fringe element from both religions...that want to resurrect the Holy Wars of millennium gone by. You know what I think about Islamic radicals...or Christian radicals?? I think they will all burn in hell...Islamic and Christians...and it doesn't matter which side of the fence they sit.
  • Footwedge
    "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" .............................

    "We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]


    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited".

    -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

    "We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

    "The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."

    -Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
  • BRF
    "Et tu, Brute".....OK, I can see where you are coming from with that. I just happen to disagree with you on your stance. You are still The Man (although your status in the 50 and over Club is under review....:-). ).


    P.S. - don't build the "mosque". :-)
  • dwccrew
    HitsRus;459308 wrote:could be the worst analogy I've seen on this thread yet.

    Are we or are we not still at war with radical Islam? Building a new flashy Islamic cultural center near ground zero RIGHT NOW is about as sensitive as peaceful, loyal, Japanese-Americans building a Japanese cultural center next to Pearl Harbor Naval base IN 1943.
    Yes, we are at war with RADICAL Islam, American Muslims would like to build this mosque legally. So, I don't see how you can relate the Japanese building a cultural center at Pearl Harbor to American Muslims building a mosque. The RADICAL segment that we are at war with do not represent American Muslims, therefore, I don't see the issue.
    HitsRus;459308 wrote:Yeah, that's right...under a Democrat President we rounded them up and detained them. Nothing like that is happening today. All that some Americans are asking is that they build somewhere else.
    These Americans can ask them to build it somewhere else all they want, the fact is that they can build it wherever they like as long as they follow the law and zoning ordinances.
    HitsRus;459308 wrote:It is notable that this year the U.S. sent a representative to Hiroshima for the commemoration of the 65th year since the attack. It is the FIRST TIME. President Obama wanted to visit the site himself, but the presence of a sitting U.S. president would be considered way to controversial 65 YEARS LATER.
    Talk about worst analogies on this thread. There is a very big difference between the present leader of the nation that dropped two atomic bombs on a country and Radical extremists that don't represent the Islamic faithful in the US. I don't even see why that is mentioned.

    The United States dropped A-bombs on Japan. Islam DID NOT attack on 9-11, extremists that misrepresent the Islamic religion attacked on 9-11. To hold the entire Muslim faith accountable for the actions of a few that day would be like holding all christians accountable for dropping the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (since most, if not all of the bombers were christian Americans). Or for a better analogy, it would be like blaming all Americans for dropping the bombs.
  • BGFalcons82
    dwccrew;459966 wrote:Islam DID NOT attack on 9-11, extremists that misrepresent the Islamic religion attacked on 9-11. To hold the entire Muslim faith accountable for the actions of a few that day would be like holding all christians accountable for dropping the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (since most, if not all of the bombers were christian Americans). Or for a better analogy, it would be like blaming all Americans for dropping the bombs.

    Maybe.
    Maybe Islam did not attack our country on 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on the USS Cole, just prior to 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack when a bomber tried to blow up a plane using an explosive mixture on his shoes.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on Fort Hood when the terrorist yelled, "Allah is great", as he slew solder after unarmed soldier.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam attacking our country when the underwear bomber failed to detonate his panties in Detroit Rock City on Christmas Day.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that attacked NYC with a car loaded with explosives that failed to detonate.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that tried to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993, but only connected in killing a dozen or so innocent bystanders.
    Maybe Bin Laden isn't really representing an element of Islam and is just misunderstood.
    Maybe it isn't an Islamic attack to behead Americans on TV and send the tapes to Al Jezeera.
    Maybe the Taliban doesn't believe in Sharia law and will not stone to death any more adulterous women.
    Maybe you're right.

    There was a sign yesterday one of the opponents at the mosque site that states how many Americans feel: "Muslims are not all terrorists, but all the terrorists are Muslims."
  • dwccrew
    BGFalcons82;459989 wrote:Maybe.
    Maybe Islam did not attack our country on 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on the USS Cole, just prior to 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack when a bomber tried to blow up a plane using an explosive mixture on his shoes.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on Fort Hood when the terrorist yelled, "Allah is great", as he slew solder after unarmed soldier.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam attacking our country when the underwear bomber failed to detonate his panties in Detroit Rock City on Christmas Day.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that attacked NYC with a car loaded with explosives that failed to detonate.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that tried to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993, but only connected in killing a dozen or so innocent bystanders.
    Maybe Bin Laden isn't really representing an element of Islam and is just misunderstood.
    Maybe it isn't an Islamic attack to behead Americans on TV and send the tapes to Al Jezeera.
    Maybe the Taliban doesn't believe in Sharia law and will not stone to death any more adulterous women.
    Maybe you're right.

    There was a sign yesterday one of the opponents at the mosque site that states how many Americans feel: "Muslims are not all terrorists, but all the terrorists are Muslims."
    You are right, it wasn't Islam that did all the things you listed, it was misguided people who claim to be muslim, but really have nothing to do with the actual Islamic faith as it is defined. There is radicals in every group, you are focusing on the radicals of Islam and the events correlated with them.

    Thank you for totally misinterpreting my post. I did not say Bin Laden is misunderstood or that the terrorist extremists are misunderstood, I CLEARLY stated that they MISREPRESENT the religion of Islam. Meaning they don't represent it. Do you comprehend?

    Also, I think that the quote "Muslims are not all terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims" is so totally idiotic.

    Was the kid that shot up Va Tech a muslim?

    Was Timothy McVeigh muslim?

    Was the Columbine killers muslim?

    We could play this game all day. You are focusing on terrorist events that were executed by Islamic extremists that MISREPRESENT the Islamic religion.

    I don't judge all white people because of Hitler, I don't judge all muslims because of Bin Laden.
  • BGFalcons82
    dwccrew;459999 wrote:You are right, it wasn't Islam that did all the things you listed, it was misguided people who claim to be muslim, but really have nothing to do with the actual Islamic faith as it is defined. There is radicals in every group, you are focusing on the radicals of Islam and the events correlated with them.

    Thank you for totally misinterpreting my post. I did not say Bin Laden is misunderstood or that the terrorist extremists are misunderstood, I CLEARLY stated that they MISREPRESENT the religion of Islam. Meaning they don't represent it. Do you comprehend?


    We could play this game all day. You are focusing on terrorist events that were executed by Islamic extremists that MISREPRESENT the Islamic religion.

    I don't judge all white people because of Hitler, I don't judge all muslims because of Bin Laden.

    I comprehend just fine, 8 years old dude. There is only 1 "religion of peace" using violence to perpetuate their message of peace and it isn't the Christians, the Buddhists, the Singhs, the Jews, nor the Amish. Their message would be SO MUCH MORE POPULAR if they showed compassion, denounced their radical elements, brought their own radicals to justice, and lived their "religion of peace" rather than condone and allow murderers to inflict their damage to the rest of the planet.

    Hitler, eh? Is that all you've got in your quiver?
  • Footwedge
    BGFalcons82;459989 wrote:Maybe.
    Maybe Islam did not attack our country on 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on the USS Cole, just prior to 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack when a bomber tried to blow up a plane using an explosive mixture on his shoes.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on Fort Hood when the terrorist yelled, "Allah is great", as he slew solder after unarmed soldier.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam attacking our country when the underwear bomber failed to detonate his panties in Detroit Rock City on Christmas Day.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that attacked NYC with a car loaded with explosives that failed to detonate.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that tried to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993, but only connected in killing a dozen or so innocent bystanders.
    Maybe Bin Laden isn't really representing an element of Islam and is just misunderstood.
    Maybe it isn't an Islamic attack to behead Americans on TV and send the tapes to Al Jezeera.
    Maybe the Taliban doesn't believe in Sharia law and will not stone to death any more adulterous women.
    Maybe you're right.

    There was a sign yesterday one of the opponents at the mosque site that states how many Americans feel: "Muslims are not all terrorists, but all the terrorists are Muslims."
    Apparently you never heard of the Irgun or Lehi groups....or the IRA. Or the KKK. As a Christian, I'm not blind to the fact that Christian terrorism has a long, long history.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
  • I Wear Pants
    I'm sure these people were all Muslims too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
  • dwccrew
    BGFalcons82;460022 wrote:I comprehend just fine, 8 years old dude. There is only 1 "religion of peace" using violence to perpetuate their message of peace and it isn't the Christians, the Buddhists, the Singhs, the Jews, nor the Amish. Their message would be SO MUCH MORE POPULAR if they showed compassion, denounced their radical elements, brought their own radicals to justice, and lived their "religion of peace" rather than condone and allow murderers to inflict their damage to the rest of the planet.

    Hitler, eh? Is that all you've got in your quiver?
    No, as others have stated, there is plenty of radical segments of other religions, I just choose not to categorize those specific religions by the actions of the radical few.

    I don't judge Christians by the actions of the KKK or anti-abortion groups that have killed. I don't judge Catholics by the radical few priests that have raped children. Unlike you, I don't judge most because of the actions of a few.
  • cbus4life
    BGFalcons82;459989 wrote:Maybe.
    Maybe Islam did not attack our country on 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on the USS Cole, just prior to 9/11.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack when a bomber tried to blow up a plane using an explosive mixture on his shoes.
    Maybe it wasn't an Islamic attack on Fort Hood when the terrorist yelled, "Allah is great", as he slew solder after unarmed soldier.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam attacking our country when the underwear bomber failed to detonate his panties in Detroit Rock City on Christmas Day.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that attacked NYC with a car loaded with explosives that failed to detonate.
    Maybe it wasn't Islam that tried to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993, but only connected in killing a dozen or so innocent bystanders.
    Maybe Bin Laden isn't really representing an element of Islam and is just misunderstood.
    Maybe it isn't an Islamic attack to behead Americans on TV and send the tapes to Al Jezeera.
    Maybe the Taliban doesn't believe in Sharia law and will not stone to death any more adulterous women.
    Maybe you're right.

    There was a sign yesterday one of the opponents at the mosque site that states how many Americans feel: "Muslims are not all terrorists, but all the terrorists are Muslims."

    Ummm, since when are all the terrorists Muslims? I think those who are still being terrorized by the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda would disagree. The United States currently considers them a terrorist organization. Or the Shining Path in Peru. Or the IRA, for that matter. And countless other groups.

    I can't even begin to comprehend how one could think that "all the terrorists are Muslims."

    I know some people, personally, who had their lives all but destroyed by the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, and who resettled in the United States.

    Pretty sure they would disagree that "all the terrorists are Muslims."

    It is sad if, as you say, that is how many Americans feel.

    Look, i hate Islamic terrorism as much as anybody, and can't wait to see it eradicated from the face of the earth. But, i don't know how one can make that comment and think it to be true.

    I will never, ever defend radical Islam. But i will defend the Islam religion from slander like that, as people knowingly lie in order to make people believe that "all the terrorists are Muslims.

    And it is a lie. Straight up. A 5 year old could use Google and, in 1 minute, have determined that, in the world today, not "all the terrorists are Muslims."
  • believer
    While it is true that there are many different varieties of terrorism around the world besides the radical Islamic kind, there are very few quite as visible, powerful, and globally pervasive.

    Members and leaders of the self-proclaimed "religion of peace" must crack down on their violent kook element to shed the "all Muslims are possible terrorists" image.
  • GeneralsIcer89
    believer;460207 wrote:While it is true that there are many different varieties of terrorism around the world besides the radical Islamic kind, there are very few quite as visible, powerful, and globally pervasive.

    Members and leaders of the self-proclaimed "religion of peace" must crack down on their violent kook element to shed the "all Muslims are possible terrorists" image.

    I'd say the IRA has been much more visible over the past 40 years. Things haven't been as bad in Northern Ireland in the past couple of years, but one would commonly hear something from there about bombings/murders/arson/etc from the 70's to the early 00's.

    Do you think the terrorist organizations in Africa are any less visible because they do less, or because Fox News doesn't show anything about it because they're Christian-based? I guarantee the situation in Uganda is far worse than the matter of a mosque being proposed on the site of a Burlington Coat Factory. In fact, many Christians here supported the LRA in getting power. Pat Robertson donated tons of money to them, as did anyone who donated to the 700 Club or several other pastors and agencies. Stop the naivete. The only reason many of these groups aren't as visible is because the American media largely ignores them (though I've seen reports on them on CNN and MSNBC, at least - even far more reports on them here in Vancouver). They kill far more people than Al-Qaeda, and are equally as ruthless, if not more so. In fact, considering it's the far-right American Christians that helped put some of these groups in power, I think it's fair to say the most verbal and visible Christian groups have been promoting terrorism, too. Perhaps Christian leaders and members should be doing more to crack down on *their* violent kook element as well, lest they forget Matthew 7:3 or Romans 2:1. About a decade ago, I was forced to attend a large church in Toledo that donated tons of money to help put some of the current Ugandan leaders in power, and I assure you that the sermons surrounding those donations shed NO light on the true actions of these people. I shudder to think of how many churches in the States sent money for that cause, especially when the pastor of that church at that time always spoke about how the entirety of the denomination was sending what they could. It makes me sick at the thought of how many people I know (and how many more just like them) were likely indirect accomplices to murder. Again, if *anyone* thinks they have a right to judge Islam because of terrorism, then I'd heavily suggest you examine your own religion. There isn't a single organized religion that can claim to have no ties to terrorist organizations. Not one.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;459857 wrote:What? I didn't screw anything up. I looked up the verse....and the apostle quoted Jesus. He said bring them here....and have them killed. And then I rightfully stated that He was taken out of context. What exactly is your problem here?

    You stated it was taken out of context only after other people explained the verses to you.

    It also wasn't Jesus who said "bring them here...", Jesus was telling story where the guy in the story said that.

    It would be like you telling a friend about the Manson family and then someone else saying you agreed with what they did because you were telling the story.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    Here is something provocative and interesting:
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/08/23/americas_first_muslim_president?page=full
  • jhay78
    It's settled- Miss USA has spoken:

    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/38816495/ns/today-today_fashion_and_beauty/?gt1=43001
  • ptown_trojans_1

    Ok, move it. lol.