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Two Muslims know real reason behind mosque proposal near Ground Zero

  • believer
    Footwedge;459177 wrote:6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law...7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

    Mark 7:9 (The Message)

    He went on, "Well, good for you. You get rid of God's command so you won't be inconvenienced in following the religious fashions! Moses said, 'Respect your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone denouncing father or mother should be killed.' But you weasel out of that by saying that it's perfectly acceptable to say to father or mother, 'Gift! What I owed you I've given as a gift to God,' thus relieving yourselves of obligation to father or mother. You scratch out God's Word and scrawl a whim in its place. You do a lot of things like this."

    Saying Jesus was criticizing the Jews for failure to kill their disobedient children in this context is a stretch. Jesus had a habit of slamming the Pharisees for their hypocrisy in following The Law but only when it was convenient. He referred to Old Testament law to demonstrate this. I do not see any overt or covert message here from Christ instructing Jews to kill their disobedient children.

    Luke 19:22-27 (New International Version)


    "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
    "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
    Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'
    "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

    Jesus also used parables in his preaching methods to help drive his points home. Again I do not see anything here indicating that his followers (IE: Christians) ought to kill those who are disobedient.

    However, I will admit that the Book of Revelation has plenty of references to the deaths of those who choose not to accept Christ. But these deaths are caused by the hand of God - not by Christians.
  • Glory Days
    dwccrew;459205 wrote:I think Muslims should be sensitive to the feelings of the families of the 9/11 victims and not build a mosque at that location only if the Japanese are sensitive to the feelings of Pearl Harbor victims and not live in Hawaii.

    This is the most ignorant argument I have read in a long time. Some of the accusations tossed towards Muslims is ridiculous. As someone who grew up in a Muslim family (my father's side) and grew up going to a mosque (I don't claim any religion as my faith though) I can say I have never in my life seen with my own eyes or heard with my own ears any Muslim talk about destroying the infidels. And I grew up in one of the most populated places in the country (outside of the middle east) of arabs and muslims and attended one of the largest mosques in North America.

    No matter what most of you on here say, you have had limited to no contact with muslims except for what you see sensationalized on television or what Fox News pumps into your heads. I have grown up with these people and although I may not believe in their religion, I have never heard any of them talk about killing anyone because they think differently and I have encountered thousands of muslims throughtout my 28 years.

    As to the topic, I see no reason why this mosque shouldn't be able to legally build at this location. Personal opinions mean jack shit in this situation. As long as they are abiding by the laws of the United States and New York, what is the problem? Grow some thicker skin people. Just because someone is different than you, you shouldn't ostricize them. Didn't we learn that as children? The way some are speaking on here, we should bring back the "seperate, but equal" mentality.

    Christ, the way some people feel on here you'd think these people were involved on 9/11.

    its not worth it anymore. just bow down to our new muslim overlords!
  • BGFalcons82
    cbus4life;459215 wrote:Maybe not a "zero" percent chance, but i would say Gibby being the GOP nominee for President in 2012 is more likely.

    You might as well call yourself a liberal, and join our side. You've now learned to fear monger and take things to ridiculous extremes in order to make a point. :D

    Rahm would be proud, as you're certainly not letting this "crisis" go to waste.

    LOL cbus. Thx for the early morning grins. :)
  • Belly35
    BoatShoes;458929 wrote:It's a Christians mission to deny themselves and take up their cross and follow christ and yet I don't see most christians living their lives that way that hardcore.
    That's because Christians teaching and mission are not to kill anyone no matter what faith, nationality or believes. ... via bombing market places, wedding, tower, goverment offices and any good Christian knows that there are not that many virgins in one location at any time.

    Note: Religion of Islam is not a religion at best it is a "Deen" and a within the Qur'an "Deen" is a way of life and a guidline to live by, it is a way of life not a religion .."big differents"
  • Belly35
    Great opportunity; Out of all this I have started a New Business:

    I am making pray rugs:
    Pray rug out of explosives …prophets at through the roof
  • Bigdogg
    majorspark;458682 wrote: Radical islamic elements took down more than two buildings in NYC, damaged the pentagon, hijacking and crashing three commercial airliners, and killing nearly 3,000 Americans. The backlash against muslims in America was mild. No wide spread killing of muslims, no wide spread destruction of mosques, no wide spread destruction of muslim businesses, and no rounding up of 10's of thousands of muslim men to be placed in concentration camps.
    Not yet but I am sure there is still hope if you had your way.
    majorspark;458682 wrote:Seven years later we elect a president with a muslim father, who attended a muslim school in a muslim country, and has a muslim sounding name. We are so far from your comparisons of kristallnacht and what happened to the Jews in Germany it is ridiculous.


    You got to get back on your medication, your paranoia is getting bad, but evidently you do have a fan club or circle jerk with writer
    majorspark;458682 wrote:Let me say this loud and clear. I do not want the federal government to intervene in anyway. Even if that means the mosque is built on the planned site. The state of NY and specifically the local government in NYC are more then capable to handle this issue. They are the ones that live there..
    I am glad we can agree on this point.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    believer;459226 wrote:Maybe I forgot to use "sarcasm alert" in my post? C'mon Ptown...I'd hope you know me better than that.

    Yeah, my bad. This thread is just annoying me.
  • HitsRus
    I think Muslims should be sensitive to the feelings of the families of the 9/11 victims and not build a mosque at that location only if the Japanese are sensitive to the feelings of Pearl Harbor victims and not live in Hawaii.
    could be the worst analogy I've seen on this thread yet.

    Are we or are we not still at war with radical Islam? Building a new flashy Islamic cultural center near ground zero RIGHT NOW is about as sensitive as peaceful, loyal, Japanese-Americans building a Japanese cultural center next to Pearl Harbor Naval base IN 1943.

    Yeah, that's right...under a Democrat President we rounded them up and detained them. Nothing like that is happening today. All that some Americans are asking is that they build somewhere else.


    It is notable that this year the U.S. sent a representative to Hiroshima for the commemoration of the 65th year since the attack. It is the FIRST TIME. President Obama wanted to visit the site himself, but the presence of a sitting U.S. president would be considered way to controversial 65 YEARS LATER.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    This is the crap that annoys me. It is not just in NY.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/22/AR2010082202895.html?hpid=topnews
  • Prescott
    This is the crap that annoys me. It is not just in NY.
    This exactly why the Muslims who want to build the NYC mosque should back off. The good PR that decision would yield is much more important than one mosque.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    Prescott;459339 wrote:This exactly why the Muslims who want to build the NYC mosque should back off. The good PR that decision would yield is much more important than one mosque.

    Why can't it continue and people more understanding, open to things?
  • Prescott
    Why can't it continue and people more understanding, open to things?
    Because we don't live in a Utopia.

    As I posted earlier, I don't care if this mosques is built. I just think that the Imam could do more good by backing off.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    Prescott;459432 wrote:Because we don't live in a Utopia.

    As I posted earlier, I don't care if this mosques is built. I just think that the Imam could do more good by backing off.

    I think he could do more by building it and then opening it up to everyone in the community. (Which if I heard his wife on ABC yesterday morning, they are going to do.)
  • jhay78
    Footwedge;459177 wrote:6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

    7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

    http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm

    That's just 2 of the many quotes from the new testament...I can find many others...that promote utter violence against the "non believers".
    Did you read those verses yourself, or quote someone else's (deranged) commentary on them? Quoting from Moses in the OT and using a parable to make a point are NOT promoting utter violence. Maybe read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and then tell us what Jesus' attitude toward violence is.
    The Constitution is being shredded by Sharia Law? SMH.

    Explain to me exactly how the Muslim religion will overtake the United States. Do you really think that? I mean...come on...[/
    cbus4life;459215 wrote:Maybe not a "zero" percent chance, but i would say Gibby being the GOP nominee for President in 2012 is more likely.

    Are you serious with this stuff?

    I mean, Major, Writer, Believer, and others have some valid points on this thread, and i can see where they are coming from. Doesn't mean i agree with them, but their ideas are at least based in some sort of reality.

    This is not.

    You might as well call yourself a liberal, and join our side. You've now learned to fear monger and take things to ridiculous extremes in order to make a point. :D

    Rahm would be proud, as you're certainly not letting this "crisis" go to waste.
    I meant that our Constitution is being "shredded" (hyperbole, exaggeration, whatever you want to call it) by the majority party in Congress and the White House, who promote policies in conflict with our Constitution. Sharia law has made inroads in Europe, and my point was it's not a stretch to think it can influence our policies and/or politicians in the US.

    As for "fear mongering", if pointing out the truth and expressing an opinion qualify as fear-mongering, then so be it. I hastily posted a few links to explain the meaning behind Cordoba, and they were a little hyper-anti-Islam. But I stand by the ideas of individuals like Andrew McCarthy, who has more knowledge of Islam and terrorism in his left pinky toe than most posters on this site. His book, The Grand Jihad, make some of the points I was trying to express, and I don't think he's a fear-monger.

    http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23928&Itemid=283
    ptown_trojans_1;459313 wrote:This is the crap that annoys me. It is not just in NY.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/22/AR2010082202895.html?hpid=topnews

    I agree, that's annoying and has nothing to do with NYC. My point about NYC is the funding and the background of the individuals wanting to build there should've been taken into question by the City Council/zoning commission before going full speed ahead with it. Ask the Greek Orthodox Church (damaged by the 9/11 attacks) how hard it is to get building/renovations approved before proceeding with a big project.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/17/ground-zero-church-archdiocese-says-officials-forgot/
  • Writerbuckeye
    ptown_trojans_1;459351 wrote:Why can't it continue and people more understanding, open to things?

    You of all people should know the answer to this, considering what you do for a living.

    The real world doesn't work that simply; never has; never will.

    Regardless of the LEGAL arguments being discussed (or not), you have to admit that what they are proposing is insensitive. The reaction proves it. Given that reaction, the compassionate response would be to back off and ditch the plan. Pushing forward as they are doing, only serves to deepen suspicions and spread more fear and disrespect.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    Writerbuckeye;459452 wrote:You of all people should know the answer to this, considering what you do for a living.

    The real world doesn't work that simply; never has; never will.
    Ehh, guess i just remember all the interfaith stuff after 9/11.
    Regardless of the LEGAL arguments being discussed (or not), you have to admit that what they are proposing is insensitive.
    Not really. It's not on ground zero and its still a city. Life goes on, things get built, people need to move on. If it was directly next to, or on ground zero, then I'd be more upset.
    The reaction proves it. Given that reaction, the compassionate response would be to back off and ditch the plan. Pushing forward as they are doing, only serves to deepen suspicions and spread more fear and disrespect.
    I'll quote George Will from yesterday. Compassion is overrated.
  • fish82
    I don't think Rauf is in danger of winning any PR awards anytime soon.

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673
    "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non Muslims," Feisal Abdul Rauf said at a 2005 lecture sponsored by the University of South Australia. After discussing the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Rauf went on to argue that America is to blame for its testy relationship with Islamic countries. "What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognizant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world."
  • Writerbuckeye
    It's not overrated when put in context to the perceptions that are out there. Again, from a PR standpoint (my background) pushing this forward despite all this opposition is only going to further damage an already damaged view of Muslims in this country.

    Standing firm and building it, anyway (a "we'll show them attitude") isn't going to turn things around. What these folks don't understand is that they are in damage control mode NOW, they just aren't realizing or acknowledging it.
  • jmog
    Footwedge;459177 wrote:6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

    7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

    http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm

    That's just 2 of the many quotes from the new testament...I can find many others...that promote utter violence against the "non believers".


    You should stop quoting the Bible if you aren't going to actually read and understand the part you are quoting.

    In the Mark 7 passage, if you read the whole chapter, you will see that the Pharisees (religious leaders at the time) questioned Jesus as to why he didn't chastise his disciples for not properly washing their hands according to the Jewish laws/traditions before eating. They were trying to find fault in him. He called them out in their own hypocracy by saying that why are they so adherent to this particular Jewish law, but they don't follow the law that said to let a child die who curses their parents?

    He did NOT tell them that they SHOULD kill their children, he called them out on their own hypocracy in following their own Jewish Laws (FYI, Jewish Law/Traditions are different than God given moral laws of the Old Testament).

    In the Luke 19 passage, oh my goodness you can't be serious? Jesus was telling a story/parable about a ruthless ruler who gave 3 servants some money before he left on a trip to invest. In the end the ruthless ruler had the one who did nothing killed. No where in that parable does it come close to suggesting that Jesus wanted anyone who didn't follow him killed, the story wasn't even about him.

    Good Lord you can't be serious with that retarded crap.
  • Footwedge
    jmog;459559 wrote:You should stop quoting the Bible if you aren't going to actually read and understand the part you are quoting.

    In the Mark 7 passage, if you read the whole chapter, you will see that the Pharisees (religious leaders at the time) questioned Jesus as to why he didn't chastise his disciples for not properly washing their hands according to the Jewish laws/traditions before eating. They were trying to find fault in him. He called them out in their own hypocracy by saying that why are they so adherent to this particular Jewish law, but they don't follow the law that said to let a child die who curses their parents?

    He did NOT tell them that they SHOULD kill their children, he called them out on their own hypocracy in following their own Jewish Laws (FYI, Jewish Law/Traditions are different than God given moral laws of the Old Testament).

    In the Luke 19 passage, oh my goodness you can't be serious? Jesus was telling a story/parable about a ruthless ruler who gave 3 servants some money before he left on a trip to invest. In the end the ruthless ruler had the one who did nothing killed. No where in that parable does it come close to suggesting that Jesus wanted anyone who didn't follow him killed, the story wasn't even about him.

    Good Lord you can't be serious with that retarded crap.

    I cited a link...the link doesn't reflect my own interpretation. I should have done my own research before posting. Next time, I will research the link before I post.
  • Footwedge
    Mr. 300;458839 wrote:Footwedge, are you a Muslim??
    No...Lifelong Catholic.
  • Glory Days
    ptown_trojans_1;459442 wrote:I think he could do more by building it and then opening it up to everyone in the community. (Which if I heard his wife on ABC yesterday morning, they are going to do.)

    noooo its only a cover, they'll lure us in then....off with our heads!
  • Footwedge
    To jmog and jayh...here is the exact quote.....

    26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

    The point being....there are quotes from both the New Testament and the Qur'an, that can be taken out of context. As far as me reading the Bible extensively....or reading the Qur'an at all...neither one applies to me. But I have read plenty of articles on the net regarding this.

    My opinion is that the Muslim Religion collectively do not want to kill all of the non believers. And I also don't believe that Jesus wanted anyone killed that were non believers, as the quote above suggests.,
  • jhay78
    Footwedge;459698 wrote:To jmog and jayh...here is the exact quote.....

    26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

    The point being....there are quotes from both the New Testament and the Qur'an, that can be taken out of context. As far as me reading the Bible extensively....or reading the Qur'an at all...neither one applies to me. But I have read plenty of articles on the net regarding this.

    My opinion is that the Muslim Religion collectively do not want to kill all of the non believers. And I also don't believe that Jesus wanted anyone killed that were non believers, as the quote above suggests.,

    Thank you for acknowledging that- it's very easy to take quotes out of context from both the Bible and the Quran. Obviously not all Muslims want to kill non-believers, and I'm not a Quran expert so I can't speak with authority on the meaning of certain verses- I have to go by the expertise of others.
    That said, Muslims do not carry out violence in countries where they are a small minority of the population. But try telling your parents/ extended family/ neighbors in Saudi Arabia that you just became a Christian, and see how peaceful everyone becomes.
  • BoatShoes
    Since we're talking about it from a PR perspective...does anyone see an opportunity for this to be spun as a recruiting tool for Islamic terrorists to tell would be terrorists about how America hates Islam and shows pictures of protesters outside of Imam Rauf's Mosque?