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Fed to sue Arizona over immigration law

  • tk421
    The Feds don't want it worked out, though. It's getting close to voting season and those 13+ million illegals would sure make a nice victory at the polls for the Democrats if they all got amnesty. The very idea that states aren't allowed to enforce federal law is laughable. That our federal government would rather sue a state enforcing a federal law passed by our Congress rather than help secure our border is a fucking disgrace.

    I wish that each and every state that shares a border with Mexico would join Arizona in this fight against the federal government, but I know that would never happen.
  • QuakerOats
    BGFalcons82;439675 wrote:Some questions for anyone:


    5. Why is it so hard to build a fence that no one can cross? Don't we have sufficient technological advances (infra red, night vision goggles, cameras, etc.) to monitor the fence line?
    6. Why not use stimulus money to buy and build more fence? I think that would put hundreds, if not thousands, of people to work in our Summer of Recovery, don't you?
    Land mines ---- 1/2 mile wide, running the length of the border.
  • QuakerOats
    majorspark;439419 wrote: Its not about enforcement of law. Its not about protecting our citizens. Its not about discrimination. Its about politics. I got to hand it to the democrat party on this one. The have put the preservation of their party's rule over, federal law, the will of our citizens, and the protection and safety of our citizens.

    For this they should be summarily, and immediately, dismissed from D.C.
  • CenterBHSFan
    Got this in an email just a few minutes ago. Ancedotal to be sure, but since analogies are so popular, I thought it would fit right in! ;)

    The owner of the Phoenix Suns basketball team, Robert Sarver, opposes AZ's new immigration laws. Arizona 's Governor, Jan Brewer, released the following statement in response to Sarver's criticism of the new law:

    "What if the owners of the Suns discovered that hordes of people were sneaking into games without paying? What if they had a good idea who the gate-crashers are, but the ushers and security personnel were not allowed to ask these folks to produce their ticket stubs, thus non-paying attendees couldn't be ejected.

    Furthermore, what if Suns' ownership was expected to provide those who sneaked in with complimentary eats and drink? And what if, on those days when a gate-crasher became ill or injured, the Suns had to provide free medical care and shelter?"

    - Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer

  • jhay78
    CenterBHSFan;440126 wrote:Got this in an email just a few minutes ago. Ancedotal to be sure, but since analogies are so popular, I thought it would fit right in! ;)
    The owner of the Phoenix Suns basketball team, Robert Sarver, opposes AZ's new immigration laws. Arizona 's Governor, Jan Brewer, released the following statement in response to Sarver's criticism of the new law:

    "What if the owners of the Suns discovered that hordes of people were sneaking into games without paying? What if they had a good idea who the gate-crashers are, but the ushers and security personnel were not allowed to ask these folks to produce their ticket stubs, thus non-paying attendees couldn't be ejected.

    Furthermore, what if Suns' ownership was expected to provide those who sneaked in with complimentary eats and drink? And what if, on those days when a gate-crasher became ill or injured, the Suns had to provide free medical care and shelter?"

    - Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer
    Jan Brewer is the best. She, along with Bobby Jindal, Chris Christie, and others like them are exposing how pathetic our federal government currently is.
  • I Wear Pants
    majorspark;439365 wrote:From what I understand of the law one has to be detained legally. That means officers just can't walk up to you and ask for your papers. You have to be in public and be suspected off some sort of public offense. It demands state wide compliance with federal law. Prior to this law it was up to local authorities to decide whether they would enforce federal law. It also specifially forbids detaining anyone because of how they look.

    Just like the warrant system. Local authorites on not randomly stoping citizens on the street checking to see if they are legally walking the streets. You commit a public offense and they run a check on you. If it shows you have a warrant you will be taken into custody.

    You can read it yourself.
    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
    Question though, what is the penalty for not carrying your papers under this law? Like, if I'm a person here legally and I have papers but aren't currently carrying them and get stopped for jaywalking or something stupid.
  • majorspark
    I Wear Pants;440192 wrote:Question though, what is the penalty for not carrying your papers under this law? Like, if I'm a person here legally and I have papers but aren't currently carrying them and get stopped for jaywalking or something stupid.
    I would have to re-read parts of the law concerning some of the penalties. If I recall correctly it follows the federal law and you could be charged with a misdemeanor if you are a legally present non citizen. Not sure how often that part of federal law is enforced.
  • jmog
    I Wear Pants;440192 wrote:Question though, what is the penalty for not carrying your papers under this law? Like, if I'm a person here legally and I have papers but aren't currently carrying them and get stopped for jaywalking or something stupid.

    Here's the thing, anyone who has EVER traveled outside of our country knows this.

    If you are traveling into another country you ALWAYS have your papers with you. I just got back from India, was there 2 weeks for work. I had my business visa and passport on me 24/7.


    If I'm a perfectly legal immigrant, I carry my green card with me in my wallet just like a driver's liscense. This isn't rocket science here.

    Just like if I get pulled over for speeding and don't have my liscence, or my proof of insurance, or registration. I do have all 3 say at home, but am missing 1 or more of them at the time of being pulled over. There are penalties for each, why is that any differenct than immigrants having to carry their papers with them?


    Shoot, when I travel out of the country you can't separate me from my passport/visa.
  • QuakerOats
    jhay78;440174 wrote:Jan Brewer is the best. She, along with Bobby Jindal, Chris Christie, and others like them are exposing how pathetic our federal government currently is.

    Agreed ............. there may actually be a few 'heroes' in government !!

    One of my favorites clips of all time: http://www.thefoxnation.com/gov-chris-christie/2010/05/13/must-watch-gov-christie-destroys-thin-skinned-reporter
  • QuakerOats
    No wonder obama is subverting the law to garner latino votes ........... he has lost 20% of them already and desperately needs them back:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/141725/Blacks-Whites-Continue-Differ-Sharply-Obama.aspx

    Change we can believe in ...............
  • believer
    jmog;440367 wrote:Here's the thing, anyone who has EVER traveled outside of our country knows this.

    If you are traveling into another country you ALWAYS have your papers with you. I just got back from India, was there 2 weeks for work. I had my business visa and passport on me 24/7.


    If I'm a perfectly legal immigrant, I carry my green card with me in my wallet just like a driver's liscense. This isn't rocket science here.

    Just like if I get pulled over for speeding and don't have my liscence, or my proof of insurance, or registration. I do have all 3 say at home, but am missing 1 or more of them at the time of being pulled over. There are penalties for each, why is that any differenct than immigrants having to carry their papers with them?


    Shoot, when I travel out of the country you can't separate me from my passport/visa.


    And I bet you entered the country legally too.
  • cbus4life
    I'm in New Zealand...i haven't carried my passport/visa once since i got here. :D

    But, all kidding aside, i completely understand. When my fiancee was teaching in Moscow, she carried her documentation with her everywhere she went, all the time. And i did the same when i was there. And elsewhere.
  • Glory Days
    cbus4life;442283 wrote:I'm in New Zealand...i haven't carried my passport/visa once since i got here. :D

    But, all kidding aside, i completely understand. When my fiancee was teaching in Moscow, she carried her documentation with her everywhere she went, all the time. And i did the same when i was there. And elsewhere.

    In Russia, papers carry you!
  • jmog
    believer;441785 wrote:And I bet you entered the country legally too.

    Of course, I was just in India for work for a couple weeks, and I had my Passport and Visa with me at all times. It only left my sight once, when the airline had to take it back behind the baggage conveyor in India's airport to call to find out why I wasn't on the flight.

    Other than that, my Passport/Visa (my Indian Visa is 'pasted' into my Passport) was either in my pocket, in my laptop bag, or in my hands the whole 2 weeks I was in India.
  • FatHobbit
    As a US citizen, when I am in the United States I should not have to present papers to anyone. I don't care about foreigners or illegals. If they can find a way to figure out who they are without infringing on the rights of US citizens, then go for it. Until then I do not support the Arizona law or any similar law. I have no problem showing my passport to enter the country or having a drivers license for the privilege of driving on public roads. But if I'm a passenger in a car or walking down the street, I should not have to prove anything to anyone.

    And I don't care how things are done in other countries. That's a crappy argument for socialized healthcare and it's a crappy argument for the need to carry papers. I don't disagree that when you are in a foreign country that you should always carry your passport/visa, but when you are home you should not have to prove anything.
  • Glory Days
    FatHobbit;442773 wrote:As a US citizen, when I am in the United States I should not have to present papers to anyone. I don't care about foreigners or illegals. If they can find a way to figure out who they are without infringing on the rights of US citizens, then go for it. Until then I do not support the Arizona law or any similar law. I have no problem showing my passport to enter the country or having a drivers license for the privilege of driving on public roads. But if I'm a passenger in a car or walking down the street, I should not have to prove anything to anyone.
    if you are a US citizen, you dont need "papers". your name and even better, your SSN can determine your status. now if you cant remember your name and have to write it down on paper...you will need "papers" haha.
  • Writerbuckeye
    FatHobbit;442773 wrote:As a US citizen, when I am in the United States I should not have to present papers to anyone. I don't care about foreigners or illegals. If they can find a way to figure out who they are without infringing on the rights of US citizens, then go for it. Until then I do not support the Arizona law or any similar law. I have no problem showing my passport to enter the country or having a drivers license for the privilege of driving on public roads. But if I'm a passenger in a car or walking down the street, I should not have to prove anything to anyone.

    And I don't care how things are done in other countries. That's a crappy argument for socialized healthcare and it's a crappy argument for the need to carry papers. I don't disagree that when you are in a foreign country that you should always carry your passport/visa, but when you are home you should not have to prove anything.

    You're not supporting the law based on a false argument.

    This law isn't requiring citizens to carry papers with them to provide identification -- it IS requiring those not from this country to carry their papers; but that's already a federal requirement, so no change.

    It ONLY penalizes ILLEGALS who are stopped for some other reason (like a traffic violation) and they can't provide proper identification to show they are in the US legally.

    Why anyone would be against this, really amazes me.

    If you're a legal citizen or an immigrant who already follows FEDERAL LAWS ON THE BOOKS, it doesn't affect you in the least.

    Honestly, I think a lot of folks are against this because they see racism everywhere, and this is just another example. In these cases, it's not the law that's the problem, it's the mindset of those against it.
  • jmog
    FatHobbit;442773 wrote:As a US citizen, when I am in the United States I should not have to present papers to anyone. I don't care about foreigners or illegals. If they can find a way to figure out who they are without infringing on the rights of US citizens, then go for it. Until then I do not support the Arizona law or any similar law. I have no problem showing my passport to enter the country or having a drivers license for the privilege of driving on public roads. But if I'm a passenger in a car or walking down the street, I should not have to prove anything to anyone.

    And I don't care how things are done in other countries. That's a crappy argument for socialized healthcare and it's a crappy argument for the need to carry papers. I don't disagree that when you are in a foreign country that you should always carry your passport/visa, but when you are home you should not have to prove anything.
    1. You are wrong, they can't ask someone who's just a passenger in the car without REASONABLE SUSPICION or PROBABLE CAUSE and only after the car is pulled over for doing something illegal.

    2. It isn't just in other countries, its how the LAW states here in the US as well. Any foreigner, legal or illegal is supposed to have their documents with them at all times. I work with quite a few foreigners and they have their work visa's and passports with them always. It is in our federal immigration laws, and the AZ law was just requiring AZ law enforcement to actually enforce the current federal laws. That is it, period.

    The feds didn't take AZ to court for any civil rights violations, discrimination accusations, profiling accusations, etc. Those were talking points, they took them to court for ONLY jurisdiction issues stating that the state did not have jurisdiction to enforce immigration laws.
  • QuakerOats
    FatHobbit;442773 wrote:As a US citizen, when I am in the United States I should not have to present papers to anyone. I don't care about foreigners or illegals. If they can find a way to figure out who they are without infringing on the rights of US citizens, then go for it. Until then I do not support the Arizona law or any similar law. I have no problem showing my passport to enter the country or having a drivers license for the privilege of driving on public roads. But if I'm a passenger in a car or walking down the street, I should not have to prove anything to anyone.

    And I don't care how things are done in other countries. That's a crappy argument for socialized healthcare and it's a crappy argument for the need to carry papers. I don't disagree that when you are in a foreign country that you should always carry your passport/visa, but when you are home you should not have to prove anything.

    Incorrect.

    But it leads to a larger question: how long are you and other obama supporters going to allow this new ruling elite group to continue to subvert the will of the people, be it on this issue or any of the other issues where the vast majority has spoken?
  • FatHobbit
    Writerbuckeye;442852 wrote:This law isn't requiring citizens to carry papers with them to provide identification -- it IS requiring those not from this country to carry their papers; but that's already a federal requirement, so no change.
    People from other countries (and US citizens visiting other countries) should carry their passport and visa with them at all times. I have no problem with that.
    Writerbuckeye;442852 wrote:It ONLY penalizes ILLEGALS who are stopped for some other reason (like a traffic violation) and they can't provide proper identification to show they are in the US legally.
    How is law enforcement supposed to determine the difference between me, a legal US citizen, and an illegal. They will need some type of identification which I currently do not have to provide.
    jmog;443407 wrote:1. You are wrong, they can't ask someone who's just a passenger in the car without REASONABLE SUSPICION or PROBABLE CAUSE and only after the car is pulled over for doing something illegal.
    If I'm in the car with someone who has been pulled over, I do not need to provide law enforcement anything.
    jmog;443407 wrote:2. It isn't just in other countries, its how the LAW states here in the US as well. Any foreigner, legal or illegal is supposed to have their documents with them at all times. I work with quite a few foreigners and they have their work visa's and passports with them always. It is in our federal immigration laws, and the AZ law was just requiring AZ law enforcement to actually enforce the current federal laws. That is it, period.
    I do not care about foreigners. I only care about my rights as a US citizen. If you are in a foreign country you should follow their laws and carry you passport/visa with you.
  • FatHobbit
    QuakerOats;443524 wrote:But it leads to a larger question: how long are you and other obama supporters going to allow this new ruling elite group to continue to subvert the will of the people, be it on this issue or any of the other issues where the vast has spoken?

    I am not an Obama supporter. I did not vote for him because I did not buy into his hope and change BS. My high school civics teacher complained about Nixon's secret plan to solve everything that would only be revealed once he was elected. (I was not old enough to vote for or against Nixon, but I do remember that my civics teacher was still pissed about his secret plan almost two decades later.) He said the best way to get elected was to tell everyone you had a secret plan. If you actually showed them the plan before you were elected then people could pick it apart. As long as you kept it a secret everyone would want to know what it was, but nobody would actually be able to discredit it. I'm surprised more politicians don't do that. (Hope and change...)

    But this is hardly an issue for just Obama. Bush did nothing to solve the problem either. I have no problem with our borders being controlled. If they want to build a fence or patrol the border I would say go for it. I do have a problem with my rights being taken away.
  • jmog
    FatHobbit;443527 wrote:People from other countries (and US citizens visiting other countries) should carry their passport and visa with them at all times. I have no problem with that.



    How is law enforcement supposed to determine the difference between me, a legal US citizen, and an illegal. They will need some type of identification which I currently do not have to provide.



    If I'm in the car with someone who has been pulled over, I do not need to provide law enforcement anything.



    I do not care about foreigners. I only care about my rights as a US citizen. If you are in a foreign country you should follow their laws and carry you passport/visa with you.

    If you are driving you have to give a police officer your driver's liscense. If you are doing something wrong and not driving at the time, you have to provide your name and possibly SS# to identify yourself (if not your driver's liscense to make it easier). At that point the officer can easily verify your a citizen with just some basic information provided by you.

    So in essense you are providing all the information needed for the officer, by law, already, if you are driving its with your liscense, if not its verbal.

    If you weren't a citizen he would be able to tell that when he looked up your name. If you are doing something illegal, you are required to provide enough information, one way or another, for the officer to correctly identify you, period.

    If you are a citizen this can be either liscense or verbal, if you are not it has to be your passport/visa or you get shipped back.

    I don't understand the issue, this is how our current laws are already stated, the AZ law just enforces them.
  • jhay78
    FatHobbit;442773 wrote: And I don't care how things are done in other countries. That's a crappy argument for socialized healthcare and it's a crappy argument for the need to carry papers. I don't disagree that when you are in a foreign country that you should always carry your passport/visa, but when you are home you should not have to prove anything.
    FatHobbit;443527 wrote:People from other countries (and US citizens visiting other countries) should carry their passport and visa with them at all times. I have no problem with that.

    How is law enforcement supposed to determine the difference between me, a legal US citizen, and an illegal. They will need some type of identification which I currently do not have to provide.



    If I'm in the car with someone who has been pulled over, I do not need to provide law enforcement anything.



    I do not care about foreigners. I only care about my rights as a US citizen. If you are in a foreign country you should follow their laws and carry you passport/visa with you.

    So how are the authorities in a foreign country supposed to know if you're a citizen or a visitor? Is it not via the same method US authorities use now, by checking papers and/or identification?

    You need to clarify, because you're contradicting yourself.
  • Writerbuckeye
    Well, there was a border fence (part real construction, part electronic surveillance system) being put in place under the Bush administration. A poster on another board I frequent was hired on to help implement aspects that used electronic system to locate illegals at night using night vision and heat registering devices.

    According to this guy, from what he could say, the trials were going well and it was proceeding nicely. Until the Democrats in Congress and finally, the election of Obama, killed it.

    I have no links to back up any of this, but I do believe what this poster wrote had the ring of truth to it. Of course, he has since lost that job when the project was defunded by the Dems, and now lives in another area away from the southwestern border.
  • FatHobbit
    jhay78;443624 wrote:So how are the authorities in a foreign country supposed to know if you're a citizen or a visitor? Is it not via the same method US authorities use now, by checking papers and/or identification?

    You need to clarify, because you're contradicting yourself.

    If I'm in another country I realize their laws are different from ours. So as I chose to go there I will follow their laws and present my passport and visa any time they request it. But when I am home in the US I am not a visitor and I expect to enjoy all of my rights.