I was following events a bit on X on Saturday but didn't have the heart to follow yesterday. Seems like the start of something much bigger (attacks in Europe and the US) to me, but maybe that's just paranoia. 

Feel free to discuss what's happening in this thread. 

Pretty disgusting to see the DSA (mainly democrats) in US cities celebrating the terrorist activities and calling for genocide. 

My parents were supposed to leave for a “Holy Land” vacation today, that obviously is not happening. 

Living in NYC for years, I have several good friend with ties to Israel who have friends and family there. I feel for them, awful situation. 

posted by iclfan2

Pretty disgusting to see the DSA (mainly democrats) in US cities celebrating the terrorist activities and calling for genocide. 

My parents were supposed to leave for a “Holy Land” vacation today, that obviously is not happening. 

I'm usually somewhat neutral on this debacle, I realize Israel has done some shady stuff as well.

However, anyone, and I do mean anyone, who is defending or backing Hamas in this is most definitely a disgusting human being.

posted by jmog

I'm usually somewhat neutral on this debacle, I realize Israel has done some shady stuff as well.

However, anyone, and I do mean anyone, who is defending or backing Hamas in this is most definitely a disgusting human being.

That's where I'm at. 

There's no "good guys" here. People like to choose sides, so I'm sure most Americans will go with Israel because our gov is in bed with them.....while ignoring the fucked up shit they've done to Palestinians for decades.

Then Hamas is Iran backed and straight up terrorists. Civilians of both sides will pay the price. It's a mess.

posted by Automatik

That's where I'm at. 

There's no "good guys" here. People like to choose sides, so I'm sure most Americans will go with Israel because our gov is in bed with them.....while ignoring the fucked up shit they've done to Palestinians for decades.

Then Hamas is Iran backed and straight up terrorists. Civilians of both sides will pay the price. It's a mess.

There's no doubt in my mind that since 1947 the Muslim nations have done far worse stuff to Israel than Israel has done to them.

There's no doubt that Israel's stated stance numerous times has been "there should be both Israel and a Palestine nation" and they are always met with "no, Israel should not exist and you all should die".

That being said, Israel has created some atrocities as well, I am well aware Israel is "mostly" the good guy here but they most definitely are not innocent like too many right wingers/conservatives/Christians/etc want to believe.

The problem is the right wants to defend Israel no matter what, and the left is ok with shit like this week with Hamas and Hezbollah because they are just "fighting for their rights".

"there should be both Israel and a Palestine nation"

On our terms though*

posted by Automatik

"there should be both Israel and a Palestine nation"

On our terms though*

To be fair, it is Israel's land they are giving up, so why shouldn't they have some terms? Also, to be fair, Palestinians have elected actual terrorists as their government, and one of the main tenets in a past one, that the Palestinians rejected, was to get rid of Hamas and Hezbollah and elect a democratic government.

They said no.

If Mexico was continuously bombing the US and trying to get the SW part of the US back, should we just say "here you go" or negotiate it and have terms? Its our land at this point in time, why give it away just because Mexico is mad?

Same thing here, the Muslims attacked Israel in 67, they lost Gaza and West Bank to Israel, so if they want it back yes it will come with some terms, that's negotiation 101.

And the top of the list should be "stop bombing us and get rid of your terrorist government".

This is an example where I really wish we had better leadership than Biden or Trump.  The markets don't seem too concerned, but feels like this could deteriorate rapidly.

Hopefully they get their shit together in the House soon so they are able to take action if needed.

posted by Automatik

"there should be both Israel and a Palestine nation"

On our terms though*

For instance, in 1983 (or was it 1982?) when Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt (Egypt lost it to Israel when they attacked them in 1967) Israel gave it back with terms.

1. Egypt had to recognize Israel as an actual nation and have diplomatic relationships with them. Egypt was the first and only ME Islamic nation for a LONG time to recognize Israel as a nation.

2. The Suez Canal had to remain open for trade and commerce for Israel.

So yes, they gave back land they had won in war with terms.

The same would happen here. They won the Gaza strip and West Bank from Egypt and Jordan respectively after they were attacked (not from Palestine as there has never been a Palestine country). If they are going to give it back in terms of peace there will be terms, one of which is "you have to recognize our right to live and have our own country". So far Hamas/Hezbollah have never agreed to that term alone, let alone others.

Trust me, the settlements were wrong, their plan on land trade and settlements are wrong, etc assuming they actually want peace, but that doesn't negate the fact that Palestinians, as a whole, don't believe Israel should exist so the starting point has to be there.

posted by gut

This is an example where I really wish we had better leadership than Biden or Trump.  The markets don't seem too concerned, but feels like this could deteriorate rapidly.

Hopefully they get their shit together in the House soon so they are able to take action if needed.

Trump any day.  Hell, biden can't even conjure up a response until maybe tomorrow.  Iran & Co know weakness and appeasement when they see it.  These are evil barbarians we and Israel are dealing with.

posted by Automatik

"there should be both Israel and a Palestine nation"

On our terms though*

They have no choice though.  They are dealing with people from a batshit crazy religion who are stuck in the Middle Ages.  Israeli settlements are not good either - I’ll give you that.  But even if they were eliminated, you still have to somehow come up with a solution with zealots who live for death and the next world.  There’s no reasoning there.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

They have no choice though.  They are dealing with people from a batshit crazy religion who are stuck in the Middle Ages.  Israeli settlements are not good either - I’ll give you that.  But even if they were eliminated, you still have to somehow come up with a solution with zealots who live for death and the next world.  There’s no reasoning there.

Exactly, when you opening elect terrorist groups as your government you are the majority of the problem, not the other side.

But again, Israel is not innocent in all this as I stated above.

posted by gut

This is an example where I really wish we had better leadership than Biden or Trump.  The markets don't seem too concerned, but feels like this could deteriorate rapidly.

Hopefully they get their shit together in the House soon so they are able to take action if needed.

No shit, we have all these powder kegs going off around the world with an addled old man in the White House and another addled old man as the top (only, to be real) contender for the job next year. One guy will need to be walked through everything and told what decision to make; the other would likely look at all of this as less important than him airing grievances and working to get even with anyone he feels has wronged him.

This has been building for years. There has been little things here and there, but this is the powderkeg going off. Hamas has not been this brutal since the 2nd intifada 20 years ago. This is really bad. Perfect storm here seems like: Israel has had internal political turmoil this year, the people of Israel have gotten used to no attacks, and there was rumored talks of a Saudi-Israel normalization. Well, that is not happening now. 

The Palestinians may have felt they were getting left behind and needed to act. The world is paying attention again, and the struggle for them rolls on. 

Now, the question is at what cost is Israel willing to pay to retaliate? 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

This has been building for years. There has been little things here and there, but this is the powderkeg going off. Hamas has not been this brutal since the 2nd intifada 20 years ago. This is really bad. Perfect storm here seems like: Israel has had internal political turmoil this year, the people of Israel have gotten used to no attacks, and there was rumored talks of a Saudi-Israel normalization. Well, that is not happening now. 

The Palestinians may have felt they were getting left behind and needed to act. The world is paying attention again, and the struggle for them rolls on. 

Now, the question is at what cost is Israel willing to pay to retaliate? 

Your second paragraph almost sounds like you are giving validation or minimizing Hamas and what they did, explaining away giving reasons.

Please tell me I read too much into that as the only real response to what happened is a complete and unequivocal condemnation of what Hamas/Palestine did, period.

posted by jmog

Your second paragraph almost sounds like you are giving validation or minimizing Hamas and what they did, explaining away giving reasons.

Please tell me I read too much into that as the only real response to what happened is a complete and unequivocal condemnation of what Hamas/Palestine did, period.

Yeah, you read that wrong. Obviously, what they did was horrible, unethical, and a war crime.  

I was/am trying to understand how and why they acted and took such violent actions now.  Why did they act now, the way they did and what was their rational? 

I also think they may have done it to lure Israel back into a prolonged, costly battle. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Yeah, you read that wrong. Obviously, what they did was horrible, unethical, and a war crime.  

I was/am trying to understand how and why they acted and took such violent actions now.  Why did they act now, the way they did and what was their rational? 

I also think they may have done it to lure Israel back into a prolonged, costly battle. 

They are terrorists (Hamas) there is no logic behind what they did. 

"From the river to the sea..."

Palestine won't stop until their mandate is met. Or until they are no more. They are perfectly fine with either outcome.

I hope everybody stays out of this. There is nothing outsiders can do to fix this.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Yeah, you read that wrong. Obviously, what they did was horrible, unethical, and a war crime.  

I was/am trying to understand how and why they acted and took such violent actions now.  Why did they act now, the way they did and what was their rational? 

I also think they may have done it to lure Israel back into a prolonged, costly battle. 

Israel is about to be nice nice with Saudi Arabia. Iran doesn't like that. 

Don’t care if you’re left/right/center, Rashida Tlaib should be kicked out of Congress immediately.

She blamed Israel for Hamas’ attacks.

I’ve never hit a woman, but I could make an exception for her.

“I grieve the Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day,” Tlaib said. “I am determined as ever to fight for a just future where everyone can live in peace, without fear and with true freedom, equal rights, and human dignity. The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance. 

“The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer,” she said. “No person, no child anywhere should have to suffer or live in fear of violence. We cannot ignore the humanity in each other. As long as our country provides billions in unconditional funding to support the apartheid government, this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue.”

posted by jmog

They are terrorists (Hamas) there is no logic behind what they did. 

Boy, you haven't learned anything from the last 20+ years. 

posted by jmog

Don’t care if you’re left/right/center, Rashida Tlaib should be kicked out of Congress immediately.

She blamed Israel for Hamas’ attacks.

I’ve never hit a woman, but I could make an exception for her.

“I grieve the Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day,” Tlaib said. “I am determined as ever to fight for a just future where everyone can live in peace, without fear and with true freedom, equal rights, and human dignity. The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance. 

“The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer,” she said. “No person, no child anywhere should have to suffer or live in fear of violence. We cannot ignore the humanity in each other. As long as our country provides billions in unconditional funding to support the apartheid government, this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue.”

Not great. 

She is not wrong about there being two different types of people in Israel. Again, this has been building for years. 

posted by Automatik

Israel is about to be nice nice with Saudi Arabia. Iran doesn't like that. 

Exactly, and that would hurt the Palestinian cause...meaning that could be a reason they attacked now, part of their rational...not just because they are terrorists.

posted by jmog

Don’t care if you’re left/right/center, Rashida Tlaib should be kicked out of Congress immediately.

“I grieve the Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day,” Tlaib said. “I am determined as ever to fight for a just future where everyone can live in peace, without fear and with true freedom, equal rights, and human dignity. The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance. 

“The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer,” she said. “No person, no child anywhere should have to suffer or live in fear of violence. We cannot ignore the humanity in each other. As long as our country provides billions in unconditional funding to support the apartheid government, this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue.”

Without question, and immediately.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Boy, you haven't learned anything from the last 20+ years. 

Ah yes, the typical centrist ptown trying to belittle others to prove he is so smart….

“Boy” would not be the normal way to debate a topic.

Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Terrorist organizations commit senseless violence for political gain.

Therefore Hamas commits senseless violence for political gain.

Hamas doesn’t act logical, no terrorist group does. They are like serial killers, they just want the world to burn.