posted by ptown_trojans_1

Ok, fair enough. 

So, when should government set the line? When exactly should an abortion be legal and not legal? What week? 

How is that determined and who exactly determines it within government? 

Where is the line where the government is restricting the rights of the women and forcing them to do what they may not want to do? 

It seems like Republicans the last two years are way out is step on this issue as they cannot come up with a good answer to that question. Hence why the abortion measures in states are passing because voters like the option and do not want government totally making the decision for them. People like options, cause the real world is messy. 

1. When science confirms where life begins. That’s the line. Government isn’t choosing the line, religion isn’t choosing the line, biologists do.

2. The argument that it’s forcing birth, or forcing women to do what they don’t want to do is asinine, here’s why. Let’s remove the case of rape for a minute as that isn’t consensual. When a woman consents (and a man too) to sex, they KNOW that even with contraception they risk the chance of pregnancy. They knowingly accept that risk by having sex.  Knowing that they are chancing a life coming into the world they accept the responsibilities of it. The argument of “forced birth” is the most removed from reality and asinine logic I have ever heard. Again, assuming we are talking about consenting adults.

posted by queencitybuckeye
Why can't it?

Because scientific facts aren’t arbitrary.

Something is either a life or it isn’t. Life to non-life isn’t a spectrum, it’s binary, yes or no.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Let me clarify. The stereotypical view from the right that abortion is by far largely used as birth control for loose women is dead. I agree with your over 10 year old study that the picture is more complicated for reasons, not ones the right has been using for years. 

Again, the last 2 years has shown more people the complexities of the issue and that it is not a simple pro and con issue. 

If 96% of abortions are not medically necessary, what else would you call it other than “oops” birth control?

When the major reasons are “not ready” or “not enough money”? Thats the definition of why the vast majority of women use birth control, because they aren’t ready for children financially or in life.

posted by queencitybuckeye

With rare exception, not true.

Hardly, there is at least 2, most likely 3.

It takes 2 people to create the human, and a 3rd being that human if it is a life.

Meanwhile, abortions hit a 10-yr high in 2023...

posted by gut

Meanwhile, abortions hit a 10-yr high in 2023...

Total or as a percent of population?

Either way wouldn’t surprise me as people are extremely concerned about the economy and that is the number 1 reason people get abortions, they don’t believe they have the $$ for a child. 

posted by jmog

1. When science confirms where life begins. That’s the line. Government isn’t choosing the line, religion isn’t choosing the line, biologists do.

2. The argument that it’s forcing birth, or forcing women to do what they don’t want to do is asinine, here’s why. Let’s remove the case of rape for a minute as that isn’t consensual. When a woman consents (and a man too) to sex, they KNOW that even with contraception they risk the chance of pregnancy. They knowingly accept that risk by having sex.  Knowing that they are chancing a life coming into the world they accept the responsibilities of it. The argument of “forced birth” is the most removed from reality and asinine logic I have ever heard. Again, assuming we are talking about consenting adults.

So just to be clear, your view is the government should not allow abortion at all then? I assume with exceptions for health of mother and rape. 

Next question. What determines health of the mother to you? Are you in favor of the Texas law then? 

Your second point is detached from reality in today's modern society.  

posted by gut

Meanwhile, abortions hit a 10-yr high in 2023...

At least it’s less crazy leftists.

posted by jmog

Hardly, there is at least 2, most likely 3.

It takes 2 people to create the human, and a 3rd being that human if it is a life.

So you really do believe in the personhood movement. Mike Pence is that you? 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I hate that for you - really sorry to hear that.  Horrible  

It's ok

 It only bothers me when I think about it.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

So just to be clear, your view is the government should not allow abortion at all then? I assume with exceptions for health of mother and rape. 

Next question. What determines health of the mother to you? Are you in favor of the Texas law then? 

Your second point is detached from reality in today's modern society.  

1. If biology determines life begins at conception then that’s the only way your first statement could be true. Only way I would say it should be illegal completely is if biology concludes distinctively that life begins at conception.  If it concludes any other time then that is where abortion should stop. I thought I was quite clear on this?

2. I haven’t studied the Texas Law enough to know what I think of it one way or the other. Health of the mother is serious life or death consequences, which is rare to happen. Obviously things like ectopic pregnancies, pregnancies where the mother finds out she has cancer and has to start treatment, and so on. If carrying the child to term will seriously affect the mother’s chance at survival, then end the pregnancy.

3. My second point is reality in every single situation in life but you magically say it’s not with pregnancy?  Everything in life we do that has “risks” we accept the possibility of those risks and that is on us as a person to deal with.  For all of human history it has been known that sex has the possibility of pregnancy.  You accept that possibility with having sex. That’s a fact of biology. Why is it so far from modern society now? Because the far left says so?

posted by ptown_trojans_1

So you really do believe in the personhood movement. Mike Pence is that you? 

So the father isn’t a person involved in a child? The child isn’t a person once deemed to be alive?

Man, factual biology is not that far from reality is it? 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

So just to be clear, your view is the government should not allow abortion at all then? I assume with exceptions for health of mother and rape. 

Next question. What determines health of the mother to you? Are you in favor of the Texas law then? 

Your second point is detached from reality in today's modern society.  

"government ... allow"

My good sir, they /allowed/ Russiagate.

posted by iclfan2

At least it’s less crazy leftists.

I'm trying to remember for sure who it was, but I heard somebody say something very close to that. That the Dems will abort their way into a real life The Last of Us.

posted by gut

I don't know if I agree with that.  Trump is an unpredictable loose cannon that seems to enjoy insulting our allies.  I think that's the real reason the "deep state" worked so hard to obstruct and impeach Trump.

I really think all the people Trump hired to be his advisors that think he's dangerous shouldn't be dismissed.  Remember, Trump hires the best people!

Between Russia, Palestine and Iran I'm honestly more than a little concerned about Trump making those decisions.  And even if you believe Trump is better than Biden on foreign policy, you still have to acknowledge that the inevitable resistance movement from the left is going to undermine his effectiveness, perhaps dangerously so.

So, Russiagate, lying to FISA court about 20 times, his being shadow banned and then outright banned in social media which was done because of government pressure, Stormy Daniels, the house raids on people in his circle, manipulating state law(NY) to press him, the impeachments, all the lawfare, etc was because Trump insulted Sweden?!

posted by ptown_trojans_1

So just to be clear, your view is the government should not allow abortion at all then? I assume with exceptions for health of mother and rape. 

Just to be clear, if it is determined that the child is a life, then what you are saying is as asinine as “so just to be clear, your view is that the government should not allow murder at all?”

Because let’s be honest, if it’s a life and we kill it when it is not causing immediate fear of life for someone else (mother) killing the life is the definition of murder.

Also as far as foreign policy, remember just last year when the media shit their pants because when asked if he supported Ukraine against Russia he said that he wanted people to stop dying?

posted by CenterBHSFan

Also as far as foreign policy, remember just last year when the media shit their pants because when asked if he supported Ukraine against Russia he said that he wanted people to stop dying?

LOL, I remember.  And Trump isn't wrong, it's just another example of not filtering his words when it would have been better served to have.

Of course, we're talking about the "mastermind" behind the Art of the Deal.  Signaling that you'll stop supporting Ukraine to save lives means Putin just has to maintain a stalemate.  And that may be the inevitable reality.  Still, I'm not sure that statement leaves Trump in the strongest negotiating position.

Although, it's probably better than Biden's assured and forceful "don't".  Even worse than Obama's red line.

posted by CenterBHSFan

It's ok

 It only bothers me when I think about it.

I can understand.

posted by gut

I don't know if I agree with that.  Trump is an unpredictable loose cannon that seems to enjoy insulting our allies.  I think that's the real reason the "deep state" worked so hard to obstruct and impeach Trump.

I really think all the people Trump hired to be his advisors that think he's dangerous shouldn't be dismissed.  Remember, Trump hires the best people!

Between Russia, Palestine and Iran I'm honestly more than a little concerned about Trump making those decisions.  And even if you believe Trump is better than Biden on foreign policy, you still have to acknowledge that the inevitable resistance movement from the left is going to undermine his effectiveness, perhaps dangerously so.

Unfortunately, I do agree with most of what you said, but not because of Trump being the reason. The left would rather see Trump fail even if it means the country fails across the board (foreign policy, economy, etc.). 

The left trying to sabotage Trump aside, his foreign policy is still better. The “Trump unstable and crazy” argument goes out the window when he was pretty much spot on with his criticism, and not to mention the world was more peaceful with crazy Trump in the WH.  It’s a tough pill to swallow for his critics, but our allies should have increased their defense spending a long time ago.  They needed a Russian invasion of Ukraine to wake up. 

On top of that, Trump actually speaks from a position of strength and acts upon it if needed.  He doesn’t do this half in half out appeasement bullshit straight from the Obama foreign policy playbook. Obama spoke about Isis being the JV squad, meanwhile Trump turned ISIS into a jr high squad.  Old man (Biden) yelled at the clouds to Iran not to retaliate, meanwhile Trump had Soilemani killed and informed Iran that the US has 50+ other targets if they even think about retaliating. 

You can talk about the “best people” Trump has advising him, but wtf has Blinken done exactly that deserves a round of applause? Are we supposed to be impressed, because he can chop it up with the French and their media, because he speaks fluently? 

Remember when Dems fear mongered Trump and North Korea?

posted by jmog

1. If biology determines life begins at conception then that’s the only way your first statement could be true. Only way I would say it should be illegal completely is if biology concludes distinctively that life begins at conception.  If it concludes any other time then that is where abortion should stop. I thought I was quite clear on this?

2. I haven’t studied the Texas Law enough to know what I think of it one way or the other. Health of the mother is serious life or death consequences, which is rare to happen. Obviously things like ectopic pregnancies, pregnancies where the mother finds out she has cancer and has to start treatment, and so on. If carrying the child to term will seriously affect the mother’s chance at survival, then end the pregnancy.

3. My second point is reality in every single situation in life but you magically say it’s not with pregnancy?  Everything in life we do that has “risks” we accept the possibility of those risks and that is on us as a person to deal with.  For all of human history it has been known that sex has the possibility of pregnancy.  You accept that possibility with having sex. That’s a fact of biology. Why is it so far from modern society now? Because the far left says so?

1. Just making sure. Your view is way out line compared to a vast majority or Americans that are in favor of options and not a ban like you are suggested from conception. In your case then, you would favor a complete and total ban of abortion like the ones voters in states have rejected? You obviously ate against the Ohio issue that is now in the Ohio Constitution. 

2. Look into the Texas law and the stories that are coming from it. It makes your view look really cruel and detached from reality. The health of the mother is so broad it is hard to really pin down when the case can be applied. As such, doctors are being very cautious for fear of being sued or losing their license. 

3. I agree everyone takes risks into consideration, but your paragraph was sounding very unrealistic and not practical. People can take precautions and get pregnant, completely up ending their life. Your very ridge view is not practical in the real world and how people make decisions in this case. I read your statement like a bad sex education teacher. 

posted by jmog

So the father isn’t a person involved in a child? The child isn’t a person once deemed to be alive?

Man, factual biology is not that far from reality is it? 

You obviously don't know the personhood movement. Look it up. You would support it I'm sure. 

posted by jmog

Just to be clear, if it is determined that the child is a life, then what you are saying is as asinine as “so just to be clear, your view is that the government should not allow murder at all?”

Because let’s be honest, if it’s a life and we kill it when it is not causing immediate fear of life for someone else (mother) killing the life is the definition of murder.

I'm for options and allowing the women and/ or significant other to make that choice in a safe and legal manner. Safe, legal, and rare have others have said. I'm in the majority view on this too. 

posted by like_that

Unfortunately, I do agree with most of what you said, but not because of Trump being the reason. The left would rather see Trump fail even if it means the country fails across the board (foreign policy, economy, etc.). 

The left trying to sabotage Trump aside, his foreign policy is still better. The “Trump unstable and crazy” argument goes out the window when he was pretty much spot on with his criticism, and not to mention the world was more peaceful with crazy Trump in the WH.  It’s a tough pill to swallow for his critics, but our allies should have increased their defense spending a long time ago.  They needed a Russian invasion of Ukraine to wake up. 

On top of that, Trump actually speaks from a position of strength and acts upon it if needed.  He doesn’t do this half in half out appeasement bullshit straight from the Obama foreign policy playbook. Obama spoke about Isis being the JV squad, meanwhile Trump turned ISIS into a jr high squad.  Old man (Biden) yelled at the clouds to Iran not to retaliate, meanwhile Trump had Soilemani killed and informed Iran that the US has 50+ other targets if they even think about retaliating. 

You can talk about the “best people” Trump has advising him, but wtf has Blinken done exactly that deserves a round of applause? Are we supposed to be impressed, because he can chop it up with the French and their media, because he speaks fluently? 

I get that view but Trump's Afghanistan policy set up the fall that Biden oversaw and screwed up. 

Trump also pulled out of the Iran deal. Say what you want about it, but Iran is much closer to a nuclear weapon today than they would have been if the agreement was still in place.