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Is it time for private schools to have theyre own playoffs in football

  • tsst_fballfan
    fish82;576818 wrote:How is it a strawman? The #1 request to "fix" the problem is a multiplier, which will do exactly what I said in my post. Perhaps you should look up the definition of "strawman" again.Many public schools agree with my position, and have "shut up and played" against the privates with a large degree of success.
    Are you kidding?!?! Man this is getting tedious. This was your post that I quoted when referring to a strawman.
    fish82;576137 wrote:So you people want to bend 25 schools over the couch and stick it to them because 3 schools have won some titles. Farking brilliant. :rolleyes:
    Here is the definition of a strawman argument.
    strawman wrote:A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
  • Be Nice
    ....and sherm you're telling us that some Catholic schools have no weight room or equipment? What? Yet they play football? Name just 2 Catholic schools that have no weight room or equipment, but still field a football team. Man up, sherm. Your excuses are getting wilder.
  • sherm03
    Be Nice;577635 wrote:....and sherm you're telling us that some Catholic schools have no weight room or equipment? What? Yet they play football? Name just 2 Catholic schools that have no weight room or equipment, but still field a football team. Man up, sherm. Your excuses are getting wilder.

    No. I never once said that.

    Let me repeat myself for the third time.

    If we have to separate the privates and publics because privates have the advantage of taking students from outside of their district, then you should support separating playoffs based on ALL advantages. Some public schools have the advantage of being in a better part of town with better tax revenue and better facilities than other public schools that are in a bad part of town with no tax revenue and horrible facilities.

    So if the privates need their own playoffs because they have an advantage over the publics...then you need to further split the publics based on socio-economics advantages that some publics have over other publics.
  • Be Nice
    ^^^...might want to re-read your post 421 in the last sentence..."over a poor school that doesn't have that EQUIPMENT". I'm still waiting, sherm. Name just two.
  • sherm03
    Be Nice;577660 wrote:^^^...might want to re-read your post 421 in the last sentence..."over a poor school that doesn't have that EQUIPMENT". I'm still waiting, sherm. Name just two.

    Equipment doesn't mean just shoulder pads and helmets. Equipment could mean a fully stocked weight room. Equipment could mean tackling dummies. Equipment could mean blocking sleds.



    I can see you don't understand the point of my post. Let me explain it to you:

    People want the privates to be in their own separate playoffs based on an advantage. I'm demonstrating that even public schools have advantages over other public schools. To separate the playoffs based off an advantage is stupid because there are plenty of advantages that you are not considering.

    If you don't understand my point now...you never will.
  • Be Nice
    ...sherm, I'm going to let you have the last word. We're leaving now for Dayton to watch Hilliard Davidson play.

    ps...skank started a new and very good thread. Put your 2 cents in on it, I did.
  • dover2092
    Fact:
    Public schools must get their talent from within their own city limits.
    Private schools can recruit from anywhere across the state.

    Anyone who sees this as apples to apples is absurd.

    If the Cleveland Browns were limited to only players from Cleveland city limits vs. any other NFL team...... get real. Or if the Buckeyes could only have players from Columbus...c'mon.

    Private schools are small, prep universities, and to beat a public municipallity and then brag about being the best is ridiculous.
  • Alma_Parker
    Thinthickbigred;563843 wrote:Everybody knows that no public school has a chance in the lower divisions against Ursulin and Delphose St Johns and the private schools dominate the upper classes most of the time as well ..

    Spell much, Mr. Public School? I bet "Ursulin" and "Delphose" can help you with that, even if they don't get "theyre"? own playoffs. :)
  • Alma_Parker
    Ironton is another. Have followed them for years and they don't spend time worrying about public versus private. They spend time trying to win games in the regular season and the playoffs. So, they've made the playoffs 28 times and been to the finals a handful of times. If you look at the top few teams in terms of playoff performance over the whole time the OHSAA has been at it, you'll find a bunch of privates (Moeller, Ignatius, Mooney, DeSales, and Newark Catholic) and a bunch of publics (St. Henry, Versailles, Mogadore, Ironton, Steubenville, Valley View). Not so out of balance if you take the long view.
  • Alma_Parker
    Spelling definitely an issue, but he needs an "e" on "Ursuline" (which is an adjective) and either no 's' or an 'apostrophe-s' ('s) on St. John (or "St. John's," which would be a possessive). The post is confused beyond the spelling, though, which he'd find out if her talked to folks from Kenton or Coldwater or Steubenville or Ironton or lots of other places.
  • GoChiefs
    Alma_Parker;578628 wrote:Not so out of balance if you take the long view.

    Now, I'm not one that gives a damn about the whole public vs private thing. My opinion is, you play who is put in front of you. But, it's still out of balance when you consider the ratio of public to privates.
  • fish82
    skank;576438 wrote:Is it a coincidence that the year Iggy finally isn't even good enough to make the playoffs, St Edward has an unbelieveable team? I guess 5-6 years ago St. Ed made the better presentation at the combine.

    Careful with that reach there, dude. I'd hate to see you tear a rotator cuff. ;)

    Where are these "combines" you keep spouting off about? Is it just a NEO thing? I'm curious, since in SWO there ain't no such animal.
  • Con_Alma
    No combines in NE Ohio either...at least that I know of.
  • Rocket08
    Skank just makes so much stuff up, he can't even believe what he says most of the time it's so delusional

    He's probably out trolling for transfers for WHS as we speak
  • BEAST 0332
    Alma_Parker;578629 wrote:Spelling definitely an issue, but he needs an "e" on "Ursuline" (which is an adjective) and either no 's' or an 'apostrophe-s' ('s) on St. John (or "St. John's," which would be a possessive). The post is confused beyond the spelling, though, which he'd find out if her talked to folks from Kenton or Coldwater or Steubenville or Ironton or lots of other places.

    I don't believe Ursuline would be considered and adjective in this case since it is not pertaining to the order of the Ursuline nuns. It is a noun in this case because it pertains to a specific type of order. As to the other part of the post, I believe you would not use an apostrophe because the school is not possessive.
  • Alma_Parker
    I wasn't working on your 'beliefs,' here, more on conventional grammar. Here, "Urusuline" describes the school, and denotes its founding in the tradition of the Ursulines (that's a noun). As for "St. John" or "St. John's," this is a fairly typical situation, which often features free variation among the two choices of the proper name and the possessive. If you ask folks who go to the Catholic church in my town where they go, half will say "St. Mary" and half will say "St. Mary's." Probably the same where you live, if it involves a single saint's name. That's why I included both choices (maybe you missed the "St. John (or St. John's)" part of my post. Of course, despite you nit-picking, the real point here is that the original guy, whatever his name was, has a hard time getting across any point when he misspells most of the words involved. (Delphose?) Maybe it's some sort of passive insult to these institutions rather than just an inability to spell. But in either case, it makes the whole posting less persuasive.
  • Be Nice
    Hey fish, miss alma and 08....any comment on the article in this weeks USA Today dated November 26, 27 and 28 and I'll quote...The Ohio High School Athletic Association place Elyria Catholic on probation for three years for violation of RECRUITING rules in football.

    Talk BS all you want, boys. Your game is about up.
  • Alma_Parker
    GoChiefs;578660 wrote:Now, I'm not one that gives a damn about the whole public vs private thing. My opinion is, you play who is put in front of you. But, it's still out of balance when you consider the ratio of public to privates.

    No doubt you are right that a higher proportion of these schools make it to the last rounds than public schools at large. I was more on the point that ideas like "only Catholic schools can win" or "no public school has a chance" aren't borne out by the data. Plenty of public schools have the kinds of programs that can compete year after year. All the schools who do well do so by having a high degree of passion on the part of the kids and coaches and consistency of system year after year. The Catholic schools clearly have both in many cases and it's more than just football, as these schools also prepare a lot of musicians and debaters and scholars for the next level, too, again punching above their weight. But if you told the kids from Kenton or Coldwater or Steubenville in any given year they had 'won the states,' except for the little detail that a lot of the really good programs had been excluded, they wouldn't be too happy. This is independent of how folks in lesser programs might feel about their chance to make the playoffs or win a game or two for the first time, as that might feel really good to them. Back in the late 90s Ironton had a really good team that got to the playoffs and then beat Wyoming and Indian Hill and Valley View to make the semis. Then they drew Mooney, who was consensus #1 in the state and had smoked St. Eds and Ursuline and Hartley and Benedictine and Harding and so forth. All the geniuses knew Ironton had no chance until they beat Mooney 34-24. Then, which is the only way this story could be interesting to non Tiger fans, they got beat the next week by Sandusky Perkins. Over the years they've beaten and lost to St V-M in finals, lost to MLC, beaten Valley View a couple times, lost in a final to Wauseon and beaten Campbell Memorial in a final, etc. The coach down there and the kids down there don't spend time on whether their next game is against a public school or a Catholic school or a city school or a farm school, but only on how to prepare for their offense, how to establish a running game against their defense, what might shut down their best back, etc. Over the years that seems like a good place to spend one's time as compared to worrying about why your team's program doesn't have the traits to compete at the higher levels. Just one view of a complicated situation, probably influenced by too much time spent watching Ironton. Though I suspect the folks in St. Henry and Versailles and Coldwater and Steubenville and Germantown and so forth gotta feel about the same way.
  • Thinthickbigred
    We can only pray.
  • Be Nice
    Miss Alma...any comment on my last post? lol lol lol lol lol lol Let's hear it. Let's see you justify the FACTS that were written.
  • Alma_Parker
    You may not be nice, but you are certainly excitable; take a breath :) I don't know the story specifically, but at face value, can only take it to mean that the OHSAA continues to enforce vigorously where actual violations are found, even to those where the offense is a couple conversations with two eighth graders. Now the problem for you would likely be that the OHSAA won't scale their enforcement to programs that are clean, so your whole conspiracy theory is in trouble. Besides, my focus is still on the kids from the programs that can compete with everybody and how they would feel if things got split. See my other post. it really isn't about a handful of athletes in high school football, but about years of systematic accretion of discipline and passion, as you would know if you spent time with any of the the top programs. Some years these kids have a future D-I star on their roster, most years they don't, and the correlation of success in a given year is far less to that variation than it is to having a cohesive and balanced bunch of athletes. If you keep looking for the bogeyman to blame failure on, and read enough newspapers, you're sure to find the answer you want, the one that comforts you. This simply isn't how folks in the public school towns spend their time, as their mind is on the game, not on building rationalization and excuses. Sorry if that's tough to swallow, and I recognize that it comes from having spent too much time around a different kind of program than maybe you have. But I'll bet, as I say above, that lots of folks (and the athletes themselves) in the towns with the top perennial programs, schools that win whether or not they have a stack of athletes in a given year, feel the same way.
  • sherm03
    GoChiefs;578660 wrote:Now, I'm not one that gives a damn about the whole public vs private thing. My opinion is, you play who is put in front of you. But, it's still out of balance when you consider the ratio of public to privates.

    If you look at as "private schools account for 20% of the total schools and they have won 42% of the titles" then yes, that looks very out of balance.

    But when you look at the fact that 34 private schools have won state championships, and 65 public schools have won state championships, it's not that out of balance.

    13.8% of ALL Ohio football teams account for ALL of the state championships. A small number of private schools win a lot of titles...and a small number of public schools win a lot of titles. The thought that there is a huge disparity because there aren't that many private schools and they win a lot of titles is just a way to twist stats to support a viewpoint. The reality is, a small percentage of teams...both private and public...are winning all the titles.
  • Gardens35
    Browns 21-7, 2nd quarter score.
  • TwinTurbo
    Be Nice;578830 wrote:Hey fish, miss alma and 08....any comment on the article in this weeks USA Today dated November 26, 27 and 28 and I'll quote...The Ohio High School Athletic Association place Elyria Catholic on probation for three years for violation of RECRUITING rules in football.

    Talk BS all you want, boys. Your game is about up.
    u want to rag on private schools, put this one in your pipe and smoke it.


    Douglass suspended, football team on probation
    Posted by webmaster on July 21 2008
    This past Friday, the Ohio High School Athletic Assn passed down a 3 game suspension for Coach Maurice Douglass, and has placed the Trotwood-Madison Rams football team on a two-year probation as part of the punishment in regards to recruiting violations brought against the school and coach Douglass.

    news: trotwoodmadison.gifCoach Douglass is prohibited from coaching in practices and games for weeks three, four and five of the regular season.

    The penalties against the football program also include the dismissal of assistant coach Jeremy Beckham, and two senior students have been declared ineligible from participating in sports for one year at any school that is a member of the association.

    Beckham, who also has coached locally at Northmont and Springfield South, was told last Monday that he was terminated from Trotwood's staff.

    "The biggest thing (wrong) is the way they worded (the news release), which is totally false," Beckham said. "The fact is something had to be done on the staff and somebody had to go, and I guess I got the short straw."

    The program also was placed on two years’ probation.

    The penalties, which followed a seven-month investigation, were agreed to by OHSAA and the school.
  • Gardens35
    Browns are #1