The LeBron v. Kobe Debate--Official

• SQ_Crazies

  

  Make this an important thread and keep it at the top, because there is no doubt it's an important topic on here. Whether you think it's stupid or not, it's still probably the most discussed topic on here--at least this time of year.
  
  But what do you say guys--can we use other threads for what they're intended for and talk about certain games or specific teams and keep the LeBron/Kobe junk on here? I don't mind having the argument, but I get sick of it cluttering up every NBA thread--especially when sometimes other things are actually being discussed.
  
  I'll be faithful to this and if I have any smartass comment or whatever about Kobe I'll put it here, I'm sure my fellow Cavs fans can do the same. Can you Laker faithful be disciplined enough to do it? Come talk on Cavs threads all the time but lets talk about the game or whatever the issue is rather than this on 10 different threads.
• Lovejoy1984

  

  I agree with you, but I don't see this happening unfortunately.
• Fly4Fun

  

  I like it, I'll sticky it for now and see if it works.
• j_crazy

  

  I'm a big time LBJ fan. My opinion:
  
  Kobe is better until LBJ starts winning Titles. Notice the plural.
• End of Line

  

  LeBron.
  
  
  I ought to make a Crosby/Ovechkin thread
• Fly4Fun

  

  j_crazy wrote: I'm a big time LBJ fan. My opinion:
  
  Kobe is better until LBJ starts winning Titles. Notice the plural.

  Title argument is the oldest and weakest one out there... If this was an individual sports... sure. It's a team sport.
• j_crazy

  

  Fly4Fun wrote:

  j_crazy wrote: I'm a big time LBJ fan. My opinion:
  
  Kobe is better until LBJ starts winning Titles. Notice the plural.

  Title argument is the oldest and weakest one out there... If this was an individual sports... sure. It's a team sport.

  What's the point of playing basketball? To win, or have the best stats?
  
  To some people it's not important, and I respect that opinion, but to me it is important. LBJ needs the titles to pass Kobe. For the record is Lebron really going to have better stats than Kobe when all is said and done? We can't say for sure, so until then even that argument is moot.
• Fly4Fun

  

  j_crazy wrote:

  Fly4Fun wrote:

  j_crazy wrote: I'm a big time LBJ fan. My opinion:
  
  Kobe is better until LBJ starts winning Titles. Notice the plural.

  Title argument is the oldest and weakest one out there... If this was an individual sports... sure. It's a team sport.

  What's the point of playing basketball? To win, or have the best stats?
  
  To some people it's not important, and I respect that opinion, but to me it is important. LBJ needs the titles to pass Kobe. For the record is Lebron really going to have better stats than Kobe when all is said and done? We can't say for sure, so until then even that argument is moot.

  The point is to win... but can you honestly say LeBron goes out there to pad his stats? If not why would you ask that question? LeBron does whatever necessary to help his team win. Sometimes he's a scorer, sometimes he's a distributor... sometimes he's a clutch defender (Durant block and Wade steal in the past week). LeBron is a better player at this point, and it's really not even that close.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  The question has never been who is the better champion. It's who is the better player. LeBron would win titles on those title teams Kobe had too, he's never played on a team as loaded as some of those Laker teams. Plus it's his 7th year in the league, the title argument is usually reserved for All-Time greats over their whole careers--Kobe might get more, LeBron could end up with 10 for all we know. Jordan didn't win one until his 7th season, look how that turned out. Although the league is much deeper than it was during the Bulls run.
  
  Plus then you've got the Robert Horry type arguments--because like Fly said, it's a team sport. It's just like football, they put too much emphasis on titles when comparing individual players--it's a pointless part of the argument. No player in any team sport has ever won a championship by himself. In high school, without Romeo Travis, Dru Joyce, etc., LeBron wouldn't have been a state champion 3 times. Was he the leader? For sure, but he didn't win those titles alone. I mean there is no doubt he wants to win and understands he needs his teammates help to do it--why else would he be such a team oriented guy?
  
  When you look at the real, legit arguments in the LeBron/Kobe debate, while Kobe is obviously one of the best to ever play--they didn't call LeBron the Chosen One for no reason. He is the clear choice.
• j_crazy

  

  Fly4Fun wrote: The point is to win... but can you honestly say LeBron goes out there to pad his stats? If not why would you ask that question? LeBron does whatever necessary to help his team win. Sometimes he's a scorer, sometimes he's a distributor... sometimes he's a clutch defender (Durant block and Wade steal in the past week). LeBron is a better player at this point, and it's really not even that close.

  Not what I'm implying at all. You're making my point for me, he tries his damnedest to win, but has no titles yet (and I understand the supporting cast has been suspect at best), but until LBJ is successful at winning, as Kobe has been 4 times, Kobe has the lead.
• j_crazy

  

  SQ_Crazies wrote: The question has never been who is the better champion. It's who is the better player. LeBron would win titles on those title teams Kobe had too, he's never played on a team as loaded as some of those Laker teams. Plus it's his 7th year in the league, the title argument is usually reserved for All-Time greats over their whole careers--Kobe might get more, LeBron could end up with 10 for all we know. Jordan didn't win one until his 7th season, look how that turned out. Although the league is much deeper than it was during the Bulls run.
  
  Plus then you've got the Robert Horry type arguments--because like Fly said, it's a team sport. It's just like football, they put too much emphasis on titles when comparing individual players--it's a pointless part of the argument. No player in any team sport has ever won a championship by himself. In high school, without Romeo Travis, Dru Joyce, etc., LeBron wouldn't have been a state champion 3 times. Was he the leader? For sure, but he didn't win those titles alone. I mean there is no doubt he wants to win and understands he needs his teammates help to do it--why else would he be such a team oriented guy?
  
  When you look at the real, legit arguments in the LeBron/Kobe debate, while Kobe is obviously one of the best to ever play--they didn't call LeBron the Chosen One for no reason. He is the clear choice.

  
  I'm just saying that IMO championships define the player somewhat. I'm not saying Lebron is Kwame Brown, just that Kobe will have my vote until Lebron gets a chamionship. I'm not belittling anything Lebron has done, but I'm not crowning him based on potential.
• devil1197

  Here is how I see it.
  
  LeBron is the better player overall. He has just gotten better at everything people have doubted him on, now he just has to finish the deal.
  
  The Lakers have easily been the better team since the Kobe/LeBron debates started.
• ytownfootball

  

  It's the old Dan Marino argument, no championships but you can't discount how great he was.
• j_crazy

  

  devil1197 wrote: Here is how I see it.
  
  LeBron is the better player overall. He has just gotten better at everything people have doubted him on, now he just has to finish the deal.
  
  The Lakers have easily been the better team since the Kobe/LeBron debates started.

  Post up on offense. He can't/doesn't do it and almost every game he has a noticable size advantage and could dominate.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  First of all, it's fine to not crown him based on potential, but it's not potential anymore. He's surpassed the hype. No one is basing it on potential anymore, we're basing it on fact.
  
  I love the post up offense line too. That's funny.
• devil1197

  j_crazy wrote:

  devil1197 wrote: Here is how I see it.
  
  LeBron is the better player overall. He has just gotten better at everything people have doubted him on, now he just has to finish the deal.
  
  The Lakers have easily been the better team since the Kobe/LeBron debates started.

  Post up on offense. He can't/doesn't do it and almost every game he has a noticable size advantage and could dominate.

  He has been doing it more any more this season. Its something everyone knows he has but his 3 P shooting is up and overall FG % is up.
• SQ_Crazies

  

  I just posted this in another thread and I happened to include Kobe so it's relevant here....you tell me who the better scorer is--and these are last years numbers, LeBron's have all improved this year:
  

  SQ_Crazies wrote: http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT7.HTM
  
  2PT Jumpers (LAST SEASON)
  
  Kobe: 59% of his shots, 44% shooting, assisted 30% of the time, 10.9 PPG
  Melo: 50% of his shots, 38% shooting, assisted 37% of the time, 6.9 PPG
  LeBron: 40% of his shots, 38% shooting, assisted 21% of the time, 6.0 PPG
  
  Remeber, that's last year--they don't have it updated for this year, either that or I can't find the updated one. So what that shows me is that LeBron has to create his 2 point jumper on his own more often than the other two and he clearly takes fewer. I'd imagine his numbers for this year would be much improved because that part of his game has gotten a lot better. But I certainly wouldn't look at that and call him an average 2PT jump shooter.
  
  And just for shits and giggles I'll throw out the other stats from that page on these three:
  
  Kobe:
  3PT Shots:
  19% of his total shots
  35.1%
  Assisted 64%
  4.3 PPG
  
  Inside Shots:
  21% of his total shots
  65%
  Assisted 36%
  5.8 PPG
  Dunks: 59
  And 1's: 58
  Fouled 12% of the time.
  
  Melo
  3PT Shots:
  14% of his total shots
  37%
  Assisted 87%
  2.9 PPG
  
  Inside Shots:
  35% of total shots
  56%
  Assisted 48%
  7.4 PPG
  Dunks: 64
  And-1's: 39
  Fouled 14% of the time.
  
  LeBron:
  3PT Shots:
  23% of total shots
  34%
  Assisted 42%
  4.9 PPG
  
  Inside Shots:
  35% of total shots
  71%
  Assisted 37%
  10.2 PPG
  Dunks: 128
  And-1's: 97
  Fouled 19% of the time.
  
  Remember, this is based on last season. Nearly all of LeBron's numbers would be improved this year.
  
  LeBron is sure as hell the better scorer. Clearly he creates his own shot more, he's assisted less than either of the other two. He has a higher PPG career average than Melo or Kobe. I mean, I don't think there is really an argument about who the best scorer is in the league.

• Leonardo

  

  If you and I are picking LeBron and Kobe as our basketball partners, I'll let you have the first pick and I'll be happy with whoever you don't take.
• wes_mantooth

  

  I would take Kurt Rambis over both of them.
• skank

  

  j_crazy wrote: I'm a big time LBJ fan. My opinion:
  
  [size=xx-large]Kobe is better until LBJ starts winning Titles. [/size]Notice the plural.

  So according to you, Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino?
• skank

  

  j_crazy wrote:

  Fly4Fun wrote:

  j_crazy wrote: I'm a big time LBJ fan. My opinion:
  
  Kobe is better until LBJ starts winning Titles. Notice the plural.

  Title argument is the oldest and weakest one out there... If this was an individual sports... sure. It's a team sport.

  What's the point of playing basketball? To win, or have the best stats?
  
  To some people it's not important, and I respect that opinion, but to me it is important. LBJ needs the titles to pass Kobe. For the record is Lebron really going to have better stats than Kobe when all is said and done? We can't say for sure, so until then even that argument is moot.

  Then you should not have to argue if titles are YOUR barometer, Kobe has titles, LBJ doesn't, end of story right? I understand what you're saying, and I agree, but let's say LBJ averaged 50 pts. 20 boards 20 assists 15 blocks 10 steals a game, but never wins a title, but Kobe wins 6 more, who is better? Remember, it's a team game.
• cview

  Here's my take...
  
  The titles talk isn't completely irrelevant. Kobe has FOUR. That's legit and it doesn't happen by accident. Sure, he has played with some pretty damn good supporting casts. However, Shaq didn't do shit until paired with Kobe. Kobe didn't do shit without Shaq for awhile. Three HOF'ers (KG, Pierce, Ray Allen) didn't do shit until they teamed up. Shaq rode DWade's coattails to his fourth ring and Kobe was giftwrapped Pau Gasol for his fourth. Both got that ass tapped once without each other in the Finals(Shaq with Orlando, Kobe vs Boston) and both got that ass tapped together once in the Finals(Detroit). To say Kobe hopped on Shaq's back for those titles is retarded. It's pretty clear they needed each other. They beat up on weaker Eastern Conference opponents in the Finals and Shaq had his way. But a lot of people will forget how Kobe completely saved their ass vs Portland. Shaq was dominant and the best big man in the league during the three peat and Kobe was the best mid sized player in the world...hands down in regards to both. No team in the league has done it without multiple stars for a long time now...the only one in the last 20ish years is Detroit and even that is arguable as Billups, Rip, and Sheed were all on the fringe of stardom if they weren't there.
  
  That's why you can't penalize Lebron for not having one yet. The guys he has played with for awhile are about as good as the average guys at your local rec center. You NEED another star to help get there and win it. When Lebron does do it, it sure as hell won't be solely because of him. Lebron is a physical freak of nature. Easily the most talented basketball player I've ever seen and likely the most talented of all time. He'll get a title, if not several. Inevitably, he will lose a half a step at some point. When that time comes, will he be able to maintain that All-NBA/annual MVP candidate type of production the way MJ did or Kobe has done when it happened to them? Both of those guys developed devastating post games and got to the line. Both of those guys were obsessive. Will Lebron be? Even Bill Simmons questioned that when acknowledging the drive of MJ and Kobe when compared to Lebron. Both guys make their teammates better and both are excellent on the defensive end.
  
  To really assess it, we're going to have to wait another 15/20 years until Lebron is done and they've both been gone from basketball for awhile. The book on Kobe is in its final chapters. Lebron's is approaching the middle if it isn't there yet. With Lebron there are unanswered questions whereas Kobe has basically accomplished anything and everything a basketball player can.
  
  
  Right now, Lebron at 25 is a better player. He's better than MJ at 25 and he's better than Kobe at 25. Hell, he might be the best 25 year old basketball player ever. IMO the jury is still out as to whether a 30 year old Lebron will be better than what a 30 year old MJ or Kobe were. 33...35...so on. At this pace he will be but he'll definitely have to polish his game a lot between now and then.
  
  Good idea for a thread but it probably won't work. Too many douchebags for the inevitable "Lebron's a little bitch with no rings" or "Kobe's a pussy my finger hurts my finger hurts omg rapist lolz."
  
  The debates will rage on and the people that blindly hate one or the other are missing out on something special.
• Trueblue23

  

  Tonight in a 118-96 win over the Pacers, Kobe had 29 points on 10/15 from the field, 3/4 from 3pt, 9 reb and 7 assists.
  
  He said earlier today that the visit to the White House rejuvenated the team, hopefully he's right.
• 2quik4u

  

  cview wrote: Here's my take...
  
  The titles talk isn't completely irrelevant. Kobe has FOUR. That's legit and it doesn't happen by accident. Sure, he has played with some pretty damn good supporting casts. However, Shaq didn't do shit until paired with Kobe. Kobe didn't do shit without Shaq for awhile. Three HOF'ers (KG, Pierce, Ray Allen) didn't do shit until they teamed up. Shaq rode DWade's coattails to his fourth ring and Kobe was giftwrapped Pau Gasol for his fourth. Both got that ass tapped once without each other in the Finals(Shaq with Orlando, Kobe vs Boston) and both got that ass tapped together once in the Finals(Detroit). To say Kobe hopped on Shaq's back for those titles is retarded. It's pretty clear they needed each other. They beat up on weaker Eastern Conference opponents in the Finals and Shaq had his way. But a lot of people will forget how Kobe completely saved their ass vs Portland. Shaq was dominant and the best big man in the league during the three peat and Kobe was the best mid sized player in the world...hands down in regards to both. No team in the league has done it without multiple stars for a long time now...the only one in the last 20ish years is Detroit and even that is arguable as Billups, Rip, and Sheed were all on the fringe of stardom if they weren't there.
  
  That's why you can't penalize Lebron for not having one yet. The guys he has played with for awhile are about as good as the average guys at your local rec center. You NEED another star to help get there and win it. When Lebron does do it, it sure as hell won't be solely because of him. Lebron is a physical freak of nature. Easily the most talented basketball player I've ever seen and likely the most talented of all time. He'll get a title, if not several. Inevitably, he will lose a half a step at some point. When that time comes, will he be able to maintain that All-NBA/annual MVP candidate type of production the way MJ did or Kobe has done when it happened to them? Both of those guys developed devastating post games and got to the line. Both of those guys were obsessive. Will Lebron be? Even Bill Simmons questioned that when acknowledging the drive of MJ and Kobe when compared to Lebron. Both guys make their teammates better and both are excellent on the defensive end.
  
  To really assess it, we're going to have to wait another 15/20 years until Lebron is done and they've both been gone from basketball for awhile. The book on Kobe is in its final chapters. Lebron's is approaching the middle if it isn't there yet. With Lebron there are unanswered questions whereas Kobe has basically accomplished anything and everything a basketball player can.
  
  
  Right now, Lebron at 25 is a better player. He's better than MJ at 25 and he's better than Kobe at 25. Hell, he might be the best 25 year old basketball player ever. IMO the jury is still out as to whether a 30 year old Lebron will be better than what a 30 year old MJ or Kobe were. 33...35...so on. At this pace he will be but he'll definitely have to polish his game a lot between now and then.
  
  Good idea for a thread but it probably won't work. Too many douchebags for the inevitable "Lebron's a little bitch with no rings" or "Kobe's a pussy my finger hurts my finger hurts omg rapist lolz."
  
  The debates will rage on and the people that blindly hate one or the other are missing out on something special.

  umm what lol
• Lovejoy1984

  

  ^^^
  
  I agree with 2quick
  
  MJ at 25.
  
  33 ppg
  8 rebs
  8 ast
  3 stls
  85% FT's
  53% FG's
  27% 3pg
  
  LBJ
  
  29 ppg
  7 reb's
  8 asts
  1.5 stls
  50% FG
  35% 3pg
  77%FT's.
  
  I'm not sure you could say he was better than MJ at 25.
  
  But definitely better than Kobe
  
  Kobe
  23 ppg
  6 rebs
  5 asts
  2 stls
  43% FG's
  32% 3pg
  85% FT