2012 Cleveland Browns thread: AKA Pat Shurmur Memorial thread

• BR1986FB

  OQB;1292496 wrote:I really do want him to succeed as a head coach, because I think stability is what builds strong franchises...but he has given me absolutely NOTHING to prove to me he is qualified to be a NFL head coach.

  Agree completely. I'm sick of the revolving door but I don't think he has "it."
• shook_17

  

  SportsAndLady;1292466 wrote:I do, too, but I hope they actually get a hotshot coordinator instead of a "my offense was in the bottom 5 of the league every time I've been an OC" hotshot coordinator.
  
  I really honestly cannot believe we hired Shurmur...

  this. its still mind boggling that he is our head coach. its not like his offense was like the patriots, it was bottom 5! WTF. holmgren just wanted to control his pupet i guess. thank god this is the last year of shurmur and holmgren.
• IggyPride00

  

  shook_17;1292499 wrote:this. its still mind boggling that he is our head coach. its not like his offense was like the patriots, it was bottom 5! WTF. holmgren just wanted to control his pupet i guess. thank god this is the last year of shurmur and holmgren.

  You can put Heckert in that group as well.
  
  Any GM that has the loss column still progressively increasing in his 3rd year isn't going to cut it.
  
  I don't know why he gets such a free pass among the fan base when other GM's in other cities manage to take over horrid situations as well and have the turn around well underway at this point in a regime, instead of working on an 11 game losing streak and yearly decreasing win totals.
  
  It is time to stop making excuses for him and realize going from 5 to 4 to less than 4 wins in your 3 years on the job is unacceptable under any circumstance. Especially when other teams manage to dig out of holes as bad as ours us much quicker.
• shook_17

  

  ^^ i didn't know i made a excuse for heckert.. weird.
• BR1986FB

  IggyPride00;1292533 wrote:You can put Heckert in that group as well.
  
  Any GM that has the loss column still progressively increasing in his 3rd year isn't going to cut it.
  
  I don't know why he gets such a free pass among the fan base when other GM's in other cities manage to take over horrid situations as well and have the turn around well underway at this point in a regime, instead of working on an 11 game losing streak and yearly decreasing win totals.
  
  It is time to stop making excuses for him and realize going from 5 to 4 to less than 4 wins in your 3 years on the job is unacceptable under any circumstance. Especially when other teams manage to dig out of holes as bad as ours us much quicker.

  I put this more on Shurmur & Holmgren than Heckert. Is Heckert "GM of the Year?" No, but he HAS assembled the most talented group of players on this roster since they returned in 1999. Talent doesn't necessarily equate to wins when you have Shurmur running the show. I think there's a lot of talent, YOUNG talent who has yet to learn how to win.
• OQB

  

  IggyPride00;1292533 wrote:You can put Heckert in that group as well.
  
  Any GM that has the loss column still progressively increasing in his 3rd year isn't going to cut it.
  
  I don't know why he gets such a free pass among the fan base when other GM's in other cities manage to take over horrid situations as well and have the turn around well underway at this point in a regime, instead of working on an 11 game losing streak and yearly decreasing win totals.
  
  It is time to stop making excuses for him and realize going from 5 to 4 to less than 4 wins in your 3 years on the job is unacceptable under any circumstance. Especially when other teams manage to dig out of holes as bad as ours us much quicker.

  Because every other GM knows the value of picking up veteran free agents.....all heckert has done is make this roster the youngest, most inexperienced, lightest, shortest, slowest roster in the entire NFL.
  
  
  I'm all for building through the draft, but to be so arrogant and not bring in solid veteran players to help coach these young players is just plain stupid.
  
  Not to mention all the terrible picks he has made for us in the draft:
  
  2010
  Hardesty 2nd round
  McCoy 3rd round
  Lauvao 3rd round
  Asante 5th round
  Mitchell 6th round
  Geathers 6th round
  
  2011
  Little 2nd round
  Marecic 4th round
  Skrine 5th round
  Pinkston 5th round
  Hagg 7th round
  
  Sure alot of those guys are starters....but I doubt any of them would be starters on any other team in this league....
  
  Also, why does Heckert keep drafting Nebraska Safeties....Asante in 10, and then Hagg in 11...both aren't that good.
• lhslep134

  

  BR1986FB;1292422 wrote:**** Tressel and his "3 yards and a cloud of punts" mentality.

  He wasn't like that when we had a quarterback who could actually pass.
• jmog

  OQB;1292557 wrote:Because every other GM knows the value of picking up veteran free agents.....all heckert has done is make this roster the youngest, most inexperienced, lightest, shortest, slowest roster in the entire NFL.
  
  
  I'm all for building through the draft, but to be so arrogant and not bring in solid veteran players to help coach these young players is just plain stupid.
  
  Not to mention all the terrible picks he has made for us in the draft:
  
  2010
  Hardesty 2nd round
  McCoy 3rd round
  Lauvao 3rd round
  Asante 5th round
  Mitchell 6th round
  Geathers 6th round
  
  2011
  Little 2nd round
  Marecic 4th round
  Skrine 5th round
  Pinkston 5th round
  Hagg 7th round
  
  Sure alot of those guys are starters....but I doubt any of them would be starters on any other team in this league....
  
  Also, why does Heckert keep drafting Nebraska Safeties....Asante in 10, and then Hagg in 11...both aren't that good.

  1. You seemed to have neglected to point out all of the good picks he has made since he has been here.
  2. You might notice that a lot of your listed "bad picks" are late round picks, no one expects late round picks to be pro bowlers.
  3. Some of the guys you listed aren't as bad as you are making them out to be. Lauvao, Little, Skrine, Pinkston and Hagg come to mind as not bad and could be good.
• BR1986FB

  My biggest beef with Heckert is his limited use of free agency. He didn't need to go all "Mario Williams hog wild" but a couple of key pieces (WR, OG, LB & secondary) could've meant the difference in these young guys' acceleration process. Little & Gordon are supposed to learn the receiving position from a "grizzled veteran" like MoMass?
• OQB

  

  jmog;1292566 wrote:1. You seemed to have neglected to point out all of the good picks he has made since he has been here.
  2. You might notice that a lot of your listed "bad picks" are late round picks, no one expects late round picks to be pro bowlers.
  3. Some of the guys you listed aren't as bad as you are making them out to be. Lauvao, Little, Skrine, Pinkston and Hagg come to mind as not bad and could be good.

  1. Because he has made more bad picks than good ones.
  
  2. I never said they had to be pro bowlers to be a good pick, but do you honestly think those players would start on any other team in the NFL? Sure they are starting, but are they producing for this team?
  
  3. The fact that you listed Little as "not bad" proves you aren't on the same page as the rest of the Browns fans.
  
  
  I don't expect every pick to be a pro bowl type player....but why do you draft a guy in the 2nd round to be a PROJECT? Why do you trade up to get a guy who couldn't stay healthy in college, and then expect him to be a starter in the NFL (Hardesty). Why does he continuosly refuse to bring in veteran free agents that can help turn this team around faster? The only thing he has done that I can say wow, that was a nice move....was the trade rape of the Falcons.
• IggyPride00

  

  One thing actually increasing the odds that everyone is gone is Holmgren's wasted year keeping Mangini around.
  
  Haslam/Banner are naturally going to want their own people. Having seen the disaster it was just recently keeping Mangini around trying to make it work rather than cut ties right away and just bring in the guys they wanted makes it more likely they don't make the same mistake.
  
  Keeping anyone from the old regime around for another year only to have to fire them a year later if it doesn't work will immediately put a big incompetent sticker on their forehead, and get the fan base to start thinking "here we go again". For that reason I think there is just going to be a great purge up front, so that going forward they don't leave themselves open to the "why didn't they fire them when they got there" kind of questions.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  BR1986FB;1292567 wrote:My biggest beef with Heckert is his limited use of free agency. He didn't need to go all "Mario Williams hog wild" but a couple of key pieces (WR, OG, LB & secondary) could've meant the difference in these young guys' acceleration process. Little & Gordon are supposed to learn the receiving position from a "grizzled veteran" like MoMass?

  I just don't agree with you on this BR. Sorry, FA is fool's gold and there weren't pieces worth it in the FA IMO. I'm happy with Rucker, but glad we didn't screw the cap to bring in Garcon. Guy never had a thousand yr season, and he gets $40mil? LMAO no thanks.
• BR1986FB

  Commander of Awesome;1292585 wrote:I just don't agree with you on this BR. Sorry, FA is fool's gold and there weren't pieces worth it in the FA IMO. I'm happy with Rucker, but glad we didn't screw the cap to bring in Garcon. Guy never had a thousand yr season, and he gets $40mil? LMAO no thanks.

  I never said Garcon but I would've made a play for Cortland Finnegan. Finnegan & Haden in that secondary would've been real nice.
• OQB

  

  BR1986FB;1292587 wrote:I never said Garcon but I would've made a play for Cortland Finnegan. Finnegan & Haden in that secondary would've been real nice.

  exactly...I don't expect nor do I want them to build the team through Free Agency, but a quality veteran to add to the roster doesn't hurt.
• BR1986FB

  And I didn't really think there were any top tier free agent WR's, except for maybe V-JAX and he had warts, out there. I know that Heckert had interest in Garcon but there's no way I would've given that kind of money to an unproven WR.
• BR1986FB

  OQB;1292589 wrote:exactly...I don't expect nor do I want them to build the team through Free Agency, but a quality veteran to add to the roster doesn't hurt.

  Especially a guy like Finnegan who has completely changed the attitude of that Rams defense.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  BR1986FB;1292587 wrote:I never said Garcon but I would've made a play for Cortland Finnegan. Finnegan & Haden in that secondary would've been real nice.

  Cortlan took $50 Mil, is 28 yrs old in a 5 yr deal. You sign him, and then have to turn around and sign Haden. That's a ton tied up in the starting CBs IMO. Not going to happen. Also you can't QQ about not signing him, I understand you think he "changed the attitude" or whatever but its just bad business to sign that deal. Also who is to say he would even come here? He wore out his welcome in Tenn, and followed his old head coach. 30 other teams probably were interested, doesn't always work out man. Honestly I think QQing about a FA is just dumb, talk to me in 3 yrs and we can evaluate how good of a signing it was.
  
  
  Hell everyone was talking about Garcon and what they hell has he done for the Redskins so far? 8 catches for 150 yds. If we had signed him, you guys would have been happy in the offseason, and bitching about it now. To blame Heckert for not signing Finnegan is just fucking dumb.
• BR1986FB

  Who "blamed" Heckert for not signing Finnegan?
• Commander of Awesome

  

  OQB;1292589 wrote:exactly...I don't expect nor do I want them to build the team through Free Agency, but a quality veteran to add to the roster doesn't hurt.

  I agree 100%, and we did do that. I'm happy with Rucker and Parker. Thats the kind of FAs you want IMO. Home grown talent, Haden/Taylor/Sheard and supplement with decent role players; Rucker/Parker/ Big name FAs are FAs for a reason. How many FAs have the Packers/Steelers signed? None. Guys build through the fucking draft and quit QQing about missing out on signing dumbass contracts; Garson to $50 fucking million. That's bad business.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  BR1986FB;1292598 wrote:Who "blamed" Heckert for not signing Finnegan?

  You keep saying, "Sign a guy like Finnegan". Well besides Finnegan, who else was on the market? If you going to critize heckert for not signing a guy "like Finnegan" give me an example of a guy besides Finnegan who you wanted him to sign. Heckert can't create "Finnegan like FAs" out of thin air.
• OQB

  

  Commander of Awesome;1292599 wrote:I agree 100%, and we did do that. I'm happy with Rucker and Parker. Thats the kind of FAs you want IMO. Home grown talent, Haden/Taylor/Sheard and supplement with decent role players; Rucker/Parker/ Big name FAs are FAs for a reason. How many FAs have the Packers/Steelers signed? None. Guys build through the fucking draft and quit QQing about missing out on signing dumbass contracts; Garson to $50 fucking million. That's bad business.

  I agree, but why not sign a veteran at your worst position on the field....WR. I'm not saying it has to be the best WR in FA, but bring a guy in that has been in the league a while and coach these young guys up on how to be a productive NFL receiver.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  I would like a name OQB. Can't create FAs worth a shit that don't exist. You want to bring in the corpse of Randy Moss?
• OQB

  

  Commander of Awesome;1292607 wrote:I would like a name OQB. Can't create FAs worth a shit that don't exist. You want to bring in the corpse of Randy Moss?

  Brandon Lloyd was with Rams, signed with Patriots.
  Reggie Wayne resigned with Colts (great safety net for Luck and gives him a go to guy)
  Mario Manningham was with Giants, signed with 49ers.
  Robert Meachem was with Saints, signed with Chargers.
  Danny Amendola resigned with Rams
  
  
  Any one of those guys could help this WR corp out a lot.
• Commander of Awesome

  

  OQB;1292613 wrote:Brandon Lloyd was with Rams, signed with Patriots.
  Reggie Wayne resigned with Colts (great safety net for Luck and gives him a go to guy)
  Mario Manningham was with Giants, signed with 49ers.
  Robert Meachem was with Saints, signed with Chargers.
  Danny Amendola resigned with Rams
  
  
  Any one of those guys could help this WR corp out a lot.

  Lloyd took a massive pay cut to the pats. He stated during the season, that NE was where he wanted to go.
  Reggie Wayne has been with Chuck Pagano since his days at Miami. 16 yrs, with the same guy who finally got his shot as a HC. He stayed in the city that he was drafted etc.. He wasn't going anywhere and if he was it wasn't going to be Cleveland. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. LOL
  Robert MEachem?! Really? LMAO, dude's best season with a top 3 QB is 45 catches. He is the model on inconsistency and dropsies. 9 catches on the yr with a better offense and a much better QB. I'm glad we didn't over pay for that bum. LOL LOL LOL
  Danny Amendola is the same WR of two guys we already have. Nobody was clamoring for him the offseason, had one decent season (last season 689 yds) and he was a Restricted FA. Thus we'd have to give up something to get him, or Rams could have matched the offer.
  
  Mario Manningham is the only legit argument you have. He's had injury issues through out his career and never had a 1000 yd season. However he was signed to a manageable deal, and some past production. However he has 189 yds on the season, not sure he would have made much of a difference. Also then people would be bitching about lack of playing time for Gordon/Benjamin and we'd be reading posts "We have to see what our guys can do! Why'd we draft them to sit behind Mario fucking Manningham? He's not a difference maker and we need to see if Gordon is" blah blah blah...etc.....
• OQB

  

  Fair enough...why not make an effort to go get a veteran WR though, all we do is keep drafting receivers that don't produce and are incosistent.