Cleveland Cavaliers 11-12 season thread
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Wooball
I agree. I wouldn't have been upset with Barnes at 4, but Waiters looks to have a legit above average NBA skill. He is going to get to the basket and put the ball in the hole. His stroke from the outside seems to be a bit streaky, but he can knock down 3's and with Irving's outside shot we don't need an absolute sharpshooter beside him. Started watching some video of him yesterday and liked what I saw. Now they need to try to add a 3 that is a versatile defender that can make shots. I like Gee, but think he is better suited to come off the bench backing up the 2/3 position. Maybe Brandon Rush?KR1245;1215009 wrote:I dont understand what people wanted the Cavs to do with #4 once MKG and Beal were off the board. Who was left at 4 that would make you happy? Harrison Barnes? I will take Waiters over him all day long. Reach on Drummond? Lamb? T Rob?
Waiters is a solid pick. Cavs got two players that were predicted to go in the lottery. This talk of using picks 24,33 and 34 is absurd. The Cavs were never going to go into camp with 4 rookies, it wasnt going to happen. -
sleeper
LOL at people who are upset about this draft. There were really only 3 top players in this draft and they went 1,2, and 3. Who knows about Waiters, but he seems like a good player and we need a SG. Zeller isn't the best C in the league, but he was projected in the lottery and we got him at 17. It's not like he was junk at UNC either and we needed a center. -
lhslep134
I think the way Grant drafted is a reflection of his plan to use both the draft and free agency/trades to fill holes.
If we really wanted to fill holes just through the draft we could have but probably would have ended up with a worse haul than Waiters, Zeller, and whoever we trade for/sign.
A little homerism in my speaking, but I'd like to see us make a move and sign David Lighty for cheap. Hard worker, mature, and good defender who doesn't demand the ball on offense. -
killer_ewok
Commander of Awesome;1214973 wrote:They've said that he could be a combo guard with development. As it stands he's a SG.
This. I'm not claiming to be an expert on hoops or evaluating players but I watched nearly every minute of Waiters' college career. I'm a little biased but not enough to just heap praise like I have at a player who doesn't deserve it. Also, the announcers gushed about him almost every game this season and talked about how NBA-ready he was.
Anything could happen. He could be a bust. I just think that his game/strengths translate extremely well to the NBA game. The undersized talk is really nitpicking and "not a starter" only really bothers those who just read some stuff about him because if you actually watched him play and recognized how Boeheim used him this season - it wouldn't even matter to people. -
sleeper
Waiters reminds me of a black Manu Ginobli. You really can't be mad at that.
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Mulva
I don't think it's nitpicking because he doesn't have elite quickness or shooting ability to make up for it. It obviously won't always be an issue but I think it will be against big/elite defenders. He reminds me of stuckey a lot more than manu. Questionable shot selection and needing the ball in your hands are 2 traits that I hate.killer_ewok;1215125 wrote:The undersized talk is really nitpicking and "not a starter" only really bothers those who just read some stuff about him because if you actually watched him play and recognized how Boeheim used him this season - it wouldn't even matter to people.
I have a question for you though since you probably saw him more than I did (even though I feel like Syracuse lives on big Monday)... For someone so good at getting to the hoop, why didn't he shoot more free throws? -
KR1245
I think the "needing the ball in your hands" argument gets blown up for more than it is. Besides Ray Allen, which wing player in the NBA doesnt need the ball? Look at the top guards in the league, the majority of them need the ball to be effective. -
Commander of Awesome
Offensively, Waiters is adept at knowing when and where to attack and has the quickness to get there, like a tailback with his size. Part of his ability to impose his will is how he simply shrugs off defenders who rely on slapping at the ball or his arms as he bulls toward the rim. Once he's in the paint, he does a good job of putting his body into the interior defense and taking away their ability to swat his attempts around the goal. While not an elite leaper, he is quick of the floor and strong in the air.
In addition to being able to finish at the rim, Waiters also flashes a floater that will serve him well at the next level. As far as his jump shot goes, he shows fair touch and solid mechanics, but his results aren't very consistent. Much of his inconsistency stems from a tendency to lean one way or another in the air, even when he's able to get his feet set. But again, he has the touch and mechanics, so it's something more time in the gym should be able to fix. All in all, he is a slasher first who can get to and hold any spot he wants; and when his jumper gets going -- watch out.
Like almost every Jim Boeheim player, he remains much of a question mark on the defensive end after spending his college career hidden in the vaunted Syracuse zone. Despite that, Waiters consistently shows a bulldog mentality on the floor that translates to the defensive end. Though not extremely long, his strength and lateral quickness should provide him a solid foundation for becoming a solid defender at the next level. From all accounts of his workouts leading up to the draft, that competitiveness he shows on the floor has extended to his defensive effort in his auditions for teams.
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In a nutshell, Waiters is a thick, instinctual and aggressive basketball player who understands how to play the game. While his height/length isn't ideal for an NBA two-guard, he's the kind of player who knows how to assert himself and he is the type of player who has the strength and skills to negate a good deal of the size discrepancy he'll face at the next level. -
Commander of Awesome
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dion-Waiters-5738/
From DX scouting video on Waiters:
Lethal Scorer
Averaged 21.2 points per 40 minutes pace adjusted, good for 6th among SG's
Instant offense off the bench
Impossible to keep out of the lane
Can torch you in a variety of ways
Penetration
A bulldog going to the rim, great first step then too strong to stop from there
Scored 0.89 PPP out of the PnR
Scored 0.84 PPP out of iso's
25.8% of shots came at the rim where he converted 51.5%
Off the Dribble
Does a nice job getting into shot off the bounce
Shot 45.2% from 17 feet to the 3-point line
Made 25 of 72 attempts off the dribble and scored 0.82 PPP off the bounce
28.1% of his jump shots come off the dribble
3-point Range
Inconsistent but can catch fire from distance
Made 1.1 threes per game and shot 36.3%
60.4% of jumpers came from beyond the arc
Very good as a spot up shooter, posted a FG% of 47.5% and 1.01 PPP
Transition
Extremely quick baseline to baseline
Tough to stop with a full head of steam
Great at finishing with contact on the break
Transition made up 26.7% of his offensive plays
Converted 68.7% of his transition attempts
Strength & Athleticism
Great NBA fram at 6-4, 210 pounds
Does a good job finishing with contact
Sheds tackles when he attacks the rim
Has another gear, great burst and explosion
Solid leaper despite his height
Playmaking for Others
Undoubtedly a scorer first and foremost but he can set up his teammates as well
Ranked 3rd among SGs in the DX Top 100 in assists per 40 mins pace adjusted with 4.2
Doesn't have great court vision but his ability to break down the D opens up shots
Active Defender
Led all SGs w/ 3.0 stls per 40 mins pace adjusted
Quick and strong hands, plays the passing lanes
Never played M2M
Played little to no defense his freshman year, but greatly improved soph season -
Mulva
I'd like to see scott machado and buford brought in.
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hoops23
He had a better shooting % than Beal...Mulva;1215149 wrote:I don't think it's nitpicking because he doesn't have elite quickness or shooting ability to make up for it. It obviously won't always be an issue but I think it will be against big/elite defenders. He reminds me of stuckey a lot more than manu. Questionable shot selection and needing the ball in your hands are 2 traits that I hate.
I have a question for you though since you probably saw him more than I did (even though I feel like Syracuse lives on big Monday)... For someone so good at getting to the hoop, why didn't he shoot more free throws?
And everybody knows the Big East/Big Ten don't call many fouls
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hoops23
mucalum49;1214992 wrote:At first I was luke warm on the Dion Waiters trade but reading some reports/watching film I am content with the pick. He seems like someone that can be a solid player in the league and fits on this team. While small, he appears to have good strength slashing to the rim. With Kyrie who has shown to be an above average 3pt shooter I can see Waiters getting to the hoop and kicking it back out.
Barnes/Beal are bigger names but live on the outside. Kyrie would have been relied on to get to the lane and kick it to those guys and personally I don't want him taking the beating going inside all the time. So despite being slightly undersized (we're really arguing over 3/4" in shoes shorter than Beal?!?) Waiters has a strong build that can sustain driving to the bucket.
Zeller is a good pick up as well. I'm glad big Z is in our front office now and can mentor little Z. They have similarities in their game with the exception little Z is a much better athlete. If he can develop that 15-18 foot shot I expect he can have a similar career arc and put up 14/8 consistently. He also complements the team by stretching the floor taking the center away from the hoop to allow Waiters and Irving to drive.
Overall I like what we've done the last two years. Kyrie, Waiters, TT and little Z all complement each others game and is very athletic. If we are active in free agency (sign Johnny Flynn, resign Gee) and look to trade AV for wing help (I'd really like Rudy Gay in the line up) I think we're not too far off from being back in the playoffs.
I'd absolutely love trading for Rudy Gay. With those moves, I honestly believe we could end up in the top 5 in the East. Johnny Flynn hasn't done much outside of his rookie year, but he's played for 3 different coaches in 3 seasons. He actually wants to play in Cleveland, and at 23 or 24, he's still young. I'd trust Byron Scott to get his game in line, because he has the tools to be a solid player. I'd prefer him to backup Kyrie then some of the junk we had this past year. -
hoops23
Truth. Going into the season with that many rookies is team suicide, IMO. We used our assets THIS year to get the guys we wanted and we didn't mortgage anything for the future.KR1245;1215009 wrote:I dont understand what people wanted the Cavs to do with #4 once MKG and Beal were off the board. Who was left at 4 that would make you happy? Harrison Barnes? I will take Waiters over him all day long. Reach on Drummond? Lamb? T Rob?
Waiters is a solid pick. Cavs got two players that were predicted to go in the lottery. This talk of using picks 24,33 and 34 is absurd. The Cavs were never going to go into camp with 4 rookies, it wasnt going to happen. -
Wooball
Looking at the roster, it will be exciting to see what Grant and Co do the next 12 months.
Entering next offseason, they only have approximately $23,311,000 in contracts tied up in 5 players: AV, Irving, TT, Waiters and Zeller. I'm assuming they will match Gee($4.5 million) this offseason, and lets say they sign Johnny Flynn($1.5 million) and 1 other free agent ($2 million). That would raise them to $31,311,000 for 8 players. The Cavs have at least 2 first round picks in 2013 (our own plus Miami's) with the option to swap either one of those picks(Miami's) with the LA Lakers pick in the 2013 draft. The Kings pick is top 13 protected in the 2013 NBA draft, so I doubt we see that one next year. Throw in a top 10 pick and a pick in the 20's and that gives the Cavs 10 players at approximately $36 million. With the Cap somewhere around $60 million, the Cavs should have a pretty attractive roster with enough cap space to sign a max contract guy, or 2-3 solid free agents to add to an emerging team. -
Commander of Awesome
My guess is Flynn gets a bigger deal than that.
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Wooball
Your probably right about that, even if they go up to $3.5 million that he made last year they still have plenty of cap space for the 2013 offseason.Commander of Awesome;1215392 wrote:My guess is Flynn gets a bigger deal than that. -
Midstate01
Is 13' when lbj can opt out? -
killer_ewok
Mulva;1215149 wrote:I don't think it's nitpicking because he doesn't have elite quickness or shooting ability to make up for it. It obviously won't always be an issue but I think it will be against big/elite defenders. He reminds me of stuckey a lot more than manu. Questionable shot selection and needing the ball in your hands are 2 traits that I hate.
I have a question for you though since you probably saw him more than I did (even though I feel like Syracuse lives on big Monday)... For someone so good at getting to the hoop, why didn't he shoot more free throws?
I honestly don't know the answer to that question. The Big East officials tend to "let 'em play" so that could be one of the reasons. Also, Waiters' frame absorbs contact well so I think that worked against him as he didn't go flying when there was contact. And not to make him out to be phenomenal but when he made his mind up to get to the hole....not too many could stay close enough to him to foul him. He has this wicked spin move in the lane while driving to the basket and he would typically lose guys with that move as well. -
hoops23
Cavs have made a QO to Alonzo Gee for 2.7 mill making him a RFA.
They also made a QO to Gody for 1 million.
Doesn't sound like they made one to Semih Erden yet.
And finally, sounds like the Cavs signed an UDFA in WVU's Kevin Jones. -
hoops23
Sounds good to me...Dre
how good will Dion Waiters be at the next level?
Alex Kennedy
I think Dion Waiters could become a very good player in the NBA. I spent some time with Waiters at Impact Basketball in Las Vegas.He was by far the best prospect in the gym and every player wanted to be on his team when they played pick-up games. He’s a very good scorer and he can play both guard positions. The other prospects in Vegas raved about him. One fellow prospect from a big college program told me, “Dion is the best player I’ve ever played against.” Waiters has a lot of potential and there’s a reason so many executives fell in love with him throughout this process. -
hoops23
The spin move you're talking about:killer_ewok;1215694 wrote:I honestly don't know the answer to that question. The Big East officials tend to "let 'em play" so that could be one of the reasons. Also, Waiters' frame absorbs contact well so I think that worked against him as he didn't go flying when there was contact. And not to make him out to be phenomenal but when he made his mind up to get to the hole....not too many could stay close enough to him to foul him. He has this wicked spin move in the lane while driving to the basket and he would typically lose guys with that move as well.
[video=youtube;DHpXAUUUtdw][/video] -
killer_ewok
hoops23;1215878 wrote:The spin move you're talking about:
[video=youtube;DHpXAUUUtdw][/video]
That's it. I'm gonna miss seeing him do that for the Orange next season. He was fun to watch last year. I'll tune into a few Cavs games just to see him play. -
hoops23
Cavs officially signed UDFA Kevin Jones, who played at WVU. Jones was expected to be drafted in the first round, and reports say OKC would have taken him had Perry Jones not been there.
He was rated higher than guys like Quincy Miller, Green, Crowder, and Jenkins...
6'8" so a bit undersized at the 4, but is a tenacious rebounder and shot over 50% from the floor. He's also very strong.
If he could develop into a Faried type of player that'd be huge off the bench. -
KR1245
I hope he makes the team, I'd rather watch him than Godyhoops23;1215949 wrote:Cavs officially signed UDFA Kevin Jones, who played at WVU. Jones was expected to be drafted in the first round, and reports say OKC would have taken him had Perry Jones not been there.
He was rated higher than guys like Quincy Miller, Green, Crowder, and Jenkins...
6'8" so a bit undersized at the 4, but is a tenacious rebounder and shot over 50% from the floor. He's also very strong.
If he could develop into a Faried type of player that'd be huge off the bench.