Cleveland Indians Hot Stove---2011-2012
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hoops23
Good points Mulva -
BR1986FBThe sad part about this is there is now a man making $214 million in a city where you can buy blocks of 1000 houses for $1.00. Kudos to him for "getting paid" but these salaries are ridiculous.
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like_that
As would I, but that would also mean I wouldn't buy a team, knowing I will do nothing to help them succeed.OQB;1064559 wrote:It all comes down to the Dolan's and their control of payroll money.....you can rebuild and rebuild and add pieces for your "windows of opportunity" (which I absolutely HATE that phrase....it just shows how sad this franchise has become) Instead of spending money to win games and put fans in the seats to make more money....doesn't seem that complicated, but I guess if I was a millionaire I would like to make sure I'm taken care of first. -
BR1986FB
Dolan has sat on his hands WAY too long just assuming the fans will come. Not that they were going to sign Fielder but it wouldn't have been too hard. You don't resign China Doll Sizemore, let Fausto Hernandez Herredia walk and you've freed up $12 million. Now they need to come up with another $12 million for the balance of the contract.OQB;1064559 wrote:It all comes down to the Dolan's and their control of payroll money.....you can rebuild and rebuild and add pieces for your "windows of opportunity" (which I absolutely HATE that phrase....it just shows how sad this franchise has become) Instead of spending money to win games and put fans in the seats to make more money....doesn't seem that complicated, but I guess if I was a millionaire I would like to make sure I'm taken care of first.
A signing like that would create a "buzz" and fill up seats. This is all about Dolan being cheap and NOT having the confidence in the fan base that if they put a quality product on the field, they will come.
People need to QUIT making excuses for this LOSER ownership. They just pissed away ANY chance they had for a pennant over the next 5-7 years. God why can't he sell to Mark Cuban or Dan Gilbert?
I pity Antonetti & Shapiro for having to deal with the ham & egger ownership. Had Ted Stepien not been around, Dolan would EASILY be the WORST owner in Cleveland sports history.
I was looking forward to the upcoming season thinking it might be fun. Now it will be "fun" if they finish within 25 games of Detroit. :mad: -
like_that
I know Cuban has been wanting to buy a baseball team for some time now.
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Heretic
Yes. He wanted to buy the Pirates. Nuttings wouldn't sell. And, therefore, the team will have the same sort of curse that the Cubs have and Red Sox had. Except instead of the curse being not winning the World Series, it will be not winning, period.like_that;1064955 wrote:I know Cuban has been wanting to buy a baseball team for some time now. -
Crimson streak
like_that;1064955 wrote:I know Cuban has been wanting to buy a baseball team for some time now.
If Dolan would sell he would buy the Indians no doubt about it. He's good friends with Dan Gilbert and could actually partner up with him but I don't see Dolan selling anytime soon. -
BR1986FB
Perhaps he needs some "persuasion." We can get Shelbucks and his goons to strong arm him...Crimson streak;1065215 wrote:If Dolan would sell he would buy the Indians no doubt about it. He's good friends with Dan Gilbert and could actually partner up with him but I don't see Dolan selling anytime soon.
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IggyPride00
Dolan has already set up the succession plan for his children to own the team.
They have a great gig. As long as you don't care about winning and being a pariah in your community, being a cheapskate owner is an easy to make a few bucks. -
Heretic
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjpuDSKMDGN378o.as6FwTURvLYF?slug=ti-brown_hot_stove_daily_cleveland_indians_sizemore_012412
Yahoo's off-season recap, team preview, whatever deal. They do one a day, I think, until they've covered all 30 teams. -
BR1986FBHeretic;1065315 wrote:http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjpuDSKMDGN378o.as6FwTURvLYF?slug=ti-brown_hot_stove_daily_cleveland_indians_sizemore_012412
Yahoo's off-season recap, team preview, whatever deal. They do one a day, I think, until they've covered all 30 teams.
[h=1]Cleveland’s fate lies with Sizemore’s gimpy knees[/h]Well if THAT title doesn't spew optimism, I don't know WHAT does. :rolleyes: -
Mulva
The haiku is pretty good. -
grodt
As I said before, we weren't going to get a boatload for CC because his contract was expiring and everyone knew he wasn't going to resign with a small market team. Given his status as a prospect at the time LaPorta was a good haul. You'll note that the Phillies got almost nothing for him when the traded him to Seattle and Seattle pretty much got the same haul that we got for the CC trade from Texas.Mulva;1064761 wrote:And that can be countered by saying we got Brantley and LaPorta back for CC. We got Marson, Donald, and Carrasco back for Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco. We got Jeff Stevens for Brandon Phillips. We got Matt Lawton and Alex Escobar for Robbie Alomar.
He's gotten no return on less publicized moves too. Ronnie Belliard for Hector Luna was awful. Bob Wickman for Max Rodriguez. Brian Anderson for absolutely nobody.
You can't trade 2 Cy Young pitchers and not get a single impact player back. To this point, LaPorta is garbage, Marson is a backup, Donald is a backup, Carrasco is a back-end starter, and Brantley is a borderline starting outfielder. The Cliff Lee trade looks like one of the worst of all-time at this point, considering the guy was signed for another season.
And the 1 playoff appearance and 7 losing seasons we've had in the past 10 seasons is also a result of his work (especially 2006, 2008, and 2009 when they actually should have competed), accompanied by the Dolans and Wedge.
The Cliff Lee trade I have a harder time defending because he did have another year on his contract, but again his value would not have gotten higher the longer we held on to him. Given the position that ownership but the front office in it wasn't a terrible haul. Lou Marson might end up as a starter and Carrasco was in the rotation before he blew out his elbow. Add in Jason Donald as a super utility guy and you got 3 guys contributing to the major league team in a big way for one guy.
Really what were you expecting for Phillips given how his career had gone when we traded him? Again, if he had been handled better that trade would have been unnecessary. Robbie Alomar fell off of a cliff after we traded him and, even though Escobar was a bit of a risk, he had a huge upside. That Max Ramirez was flipped for Kenny Lofton during the 2007 run and Ramirez played 45 MLB games in his career.
Not every GM is going to hit on all of his trades, but I always thought Shapiro did pretty well for the situation he was often put in. As others have stated the front office's failings in the past decade have been abysmal drafting that has caused us to have to keep refilling our minor league system with our major league guys. I think it's pretty impressive just how much success (I know it really hasn't been a lot) we've had using only guys we got in trades. -
Mulva
I'm sorry, but you're an apologist. The Cliff Lee trade is indefensible. It looks worse and worse as time goes on. Saying that Lou Marson and Jason Donald are contributing to the major league team in a big way almost leaves me speechless.grodt;1065350 wrote:The Cliff Lee trade I have a harder time defending because he did have another year on his contract, but again his value would not have gotten higher the longer we held on to him. Given the position that ownership but the front office in it wasn't a terrible haul. Lou Marson might end up as a starter and Carrasco was in the rotation before he blew out his elbow. Add in Jason Donald as a super utility guy and you got 3 guys contributing to the major league team in a big way for one guy.
And saying trades were good because the guys we got back "had huge upside" or were highly regarded prospects is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. The GMs job is to evaluate prospects. If they never amount to anything then he didn't do his job well. Why not defend his drafting the same way? Sure very few of his top picks ever did anything in the majors, but they were all highly regarded when he drafted them!
Also, teams trade players with expiring contracts to contenders at the deadline all the time. There was pressure on the Indians to unload him because he wasn't going to re-sign, but there was pressure on contenders to add a Cy Young winner that could push their team over the top as well. That's the way it works. CC was traded with a month to go before the deadline because Shapiro panicked rather than trying to force teams to up their offers, and we've essentially had 0 return on that deal.
I think his record as GM speaks for itself. 9 seasons, 2 winning seasons, 1 playoff appearance, and not a whole lot of optimism going forward. -
Wooball
Mulva, I think he has said that those trades haven't worked out well. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the trades he made where he completely fleeced teams, w/ returns like Choo, Cabrera, Santana and Perez?Mulva;1065369 wrote:I'm sorry, but you're an apologist. The Cliff Lee trade is indefensible. It looks worse and worse as time goes on. Saying that Lou Marson and Jason Donald are contributing to the major league team in a big way almost leaves me speechless.
And saying trades were good because the guys we got back "had huge upside" or were highly regarded prospects is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. The GMs job is to evaluate prospects. If they never amount to anything then he didn't do his job well. Why not defend his drafting the same way? Sure very few of his top picks ever did anything in the majors, but they were all highly regarded when he drafted them!
Also, teams trade players with expiring contracts to contenders at the deadline all the time. There was pressure on the Indians to unload him because he wasn't going to re-sign, but there was pressure on contenders to add a Cy Young winner that could push their team over the top as well. That's the way it works. CC was traded with a month to go before the deadline because Shapiro panicked rather than trying to force teams to up their offers, and we've essentially had 0 return on that deal.
I think his record as GM speaks for itself. 9 seasons, 2 winning seasons, 1 playoff appearance, and not a whole lot of optimism going forward. -
IggyPride00
Under Sporting News Winners/Losers section on the Fielder deal, I found this comment mind blowing.
Winners:
Tigers fans. No owner in sports is more committed than Mike Ilitch, who will pay three players—Cabrera, Fielder and Justin Verlander—more than $60 million in 2012. That, by the way, was more than the entire 2011 payrolls for the Cleveland Indians and Kansas City Royals.[LEFT]
Losers:
The Indians and other AL Central hopefuls. That window of opportunity that opened last week when Victor Martinez was lost for the season has been slammed shut. [LEFT]
[/LEFT]
What a difference having an owner not worried about the bottom line makes.
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Heretic
LOL, that's the first thing I thought. The team's fate lies in the knees of a guy who seems to be averaging about 30 games in uniform a year in recent history. Start printing playoff tickets!BR1986FB;1065324 wrote: Cleveland’s fate lies with Sizemore’s gimpy knees
Well if THAT title doesn't spew optimism, I don't know WHAT does. :rolleyes: -
like_that
I honestly didn't see the tribe competing for the central regardless.IggyPride00;1065378 wrote:Under Sporting News Winners/Losers section on the Fielder deal, I found this comment mind blowing.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
What a difference having an owner not worried about the bottom line makes.
[/COLOR][/LEFT] -
Mulva
Saying "I always thought he did pretty well for the situation he was in" isn't acknowledging that they didn't work out well. It's attempting to justify the failures.Wooball;1065373 wrote:Mulva, I think he has said that those trades haven't worked out well. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the trades he made where he completely fleeced teams, w/ returns like Choo, Cabrera, Santana and Perez?
I haven't refused to acknowledge the hits at all. He actually left out the Hafner trade on the positive side. But his misses are easily bigger than his hits in my opinion.
He's traded 2 Cy Young winners and several all-stars for no return at all. Robbie Alomar (4th in MVP voting), Ronnie Belliard, Bob Wickman, and I'm sure probably a few others were all-stars the season before the Indians traded them. It's not like he was giving up role players for prospects. These were proven, legit players that were shipped off for nothing.
On the flip side he's definitely fleeced a couple of teams (Choo, Hafner, Druby deals). The Colon, Casey Blake, and DeRosa trades were solid but not "fleeces", at least to this point. Casey Blake was a solid pro. He was a consistent 20 HR, 70 RBI guy. Santana has a lot of potential but to say Shapiro "fleeced" the Dodgers you would think the guy was an MVP candidate last year. We got a great return for Colon, but he was a Cy Young candidate (10-4 2.55 when traded) and went on to win a Cy Young later so we SHOULD have received a great return for him.
I don't think the hits come close to outweighing the misses. Again, he traded 2 Cy Young winners and all we may have out of it is a mid-to-back end starter and a few backups. That would be like the Cavs trading back to back MVPs and getting an average power forward and a sixth man in return.
Add in the absolute failures in the draft, and the horrific misses in free agency (again, I'm talking mainly about 2005-2009 when making the right acquisition could have put this team over the top, at least in the division) and he was a terrible GM. -
grodt
I don't think you know what apologist means. You are too thinking that Shapario has been a terrible GM. Now if you're trying to say I give him a free pass for poor decisions, if you look back I don't do that. I just happen to agree with some of his move as well as look at all of them more so than you do.Mulva;1065369 wrote:I'm sorry, but you're an apologist. The Cliff Lee trade is indefensible. It looks worse and worse as time goes on. Saying that Lou Marson and Jason Donald are contributing to the major league team in a big way almost leaves me speechless.
There is a difference between scouting college players and scouting those that have professional experience. He obviously didn't have a system in place that led to the organization making good draft picks and then developing them once they were drafted. I have looked at the draft picks of the past decade and its brutal. There is no mystery why we have struggled to maintain success because I believe the draft is how you do that. You seem to think that I feel that he did no wrong. Incorrect. He failed as a drafter but I think that the work he did in trades was quite good and the primary reason we have had any success in the last decade. In my eyes the GMs job is to get the players and its the coaches and developers job to make sure they pan out. Sometimes the coaches fail, some times the players just didn't live up to expectations, some times they get hurt. So much goes in to whether or not a player becomes a viable big league player that blaming it on one person is just foolish.And saying trades were good because the guys we got back "had huge upside" or were highly regarded prospects is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. The GMs job is to evaluate prospects. If they never amount to anything then he didn't do his job well. Why not defend his drafting the same way? Sure very few of his top picks ever did anything in the majors, but they were all highly regarded when he drafted them! -
Wooball
I'm not trying to overlook the deals with CC and Lee. The CC deal to me wasn't that bad at the time it was made. CC was gone at years end, no doubt. We got back a top power prospect (Laporta) and another legit prospect with MLB potential (Brantley). Those 2 guys, esp. Laporta, haven't reached expectations, but prospects flop all the time. The 2 prospects the Brewers didn't want to give up in that deal were Mat Gamel and Alcides Escobar. At the time, the Brewers had one of the top rated systems in baseball. All 4 of those guys have not lived up to their hype as of yet. They got more in return for CC than they got when Belle, Thome and Ramirez left town.Mulva;1065421 wrote:Saying "I always thought he did pretty well for the situation he was in" isn't acknowledging that they didn't work out well. It's attempting to justify the failures.
I haven't refused to acknowledge the hits at all. He actually left out the Hafner trade on the positive side. But his misses are easily bigger than his hits in my opinion.
He's traded 2 Cy Young winners and several all-stars for no return at all. Robbie Alomar (4th in MVP voting), Ronnie Belliard, Bob Wickman, and I'm sure probably a few others were all-stars the season before the Indians traded them. It's not like he was giving up role players for prospects. These were proven, legit players that were shipped off for nothing.
On the flip side he's definitely fleeced a couple of teams (Choo, Hafner, Druby deals). The Colon, Casey Blake, and DeRosa trades were solid but not "fleeces", at least to this point. Casey Blake was a solid pro. He was a consistent 20 HR, 70 RBI guy. Santana has a lot of potential but to say Shapiro "fleeced" the Dodgers you would think the guy was an MVP candidate last year. We got a great return for Colon, but he was a Cy Young candidate (10-4 2.55 when traded) and went on to win a Cy Young later so we SHOULD have received a great return for him.
I don't think the hits come close to outweighing the misses. Again, he traded 2 Cy Young winners and all we may have out of it is a mid-to-back end starter and a few backups. That would be like the Cavs trading back to back MVPs and getting an average power forward and a sixth man in return.
Add in the absolute failures in the draft, and the horrific misses in free agency (again, I'm talking mainly about 2005-2009 when making the right acquisition could have put this team over the top, at least in the division) and he was a terrible GM.
The Lee deal is pretty much inexcusable. When the deal was made, it was pretty much known that Marson, Donald and Carrasco would be major leaguers, but none projected to be stars. The player that the Tribe tried to get people excited about was Jason Knapp, who was I think 19 at the time and still in A ball. He was injured at the time of the trade, and has battled injuries since. Unless Knapp gets healthy and realizes his potential, that trade will be a big time fail. But I don't think his misses outweigh the hits. He seems to do a much better job getting high quality major league talent back when trading off our marginal players than our stars. -
TBone14
I don't think they are any better with Fielder instead of Victor. If you thought we had a chance before Victor went down...this certainly shouldn't change your mind.
They are talking about Miggy at 3rd..with Moon Pie and Prince..that will be a dreadful defensive infield.
If Jimenez gets back to Colorado form and Tomlin doesn't regress..I love our 1,2,3. I think Masterson is going to have a great year. -
Laley23
I dont know what Prince you guys have been watching the last 3-4 years, but if you think he isnt a huge upgrade over Victor than it CLEARLY wasnt the same Prince as me. -
like_that
Pretty positive post. I sort of agree. I don't see Prince's production replacing V-Mart's production in such a significant matter that he was worth $214 million. I also don't see Verlander repeating his performance of last season.TBone14;1065482 wrote:I don't think they are any better with Fielder instead of Victor. If you thought we had a chance before Victor went down...this certainly shouldn't change your mind.
They are talking about Miggy at 3rd..with Moon Pie and Prince..that will be a dreadful defensive infield.
If Jimenez gets back to Colorado form and Tomlin doesn't regress..I love our 1,2,3. I think Masterson is going to have a great year.
With that being said, i still don't see the Tribe competing. They just dont have the personnel imo. I am not impressed with Jimenez, and I don't see him getting back to form. -
Laley23
Gotta stop looking at it that way. Its baseball, so if the owner doesnt care it doesnt matter what he spends. If it was the NBA, a contract like that can cripple a team. But in baseball, it doesnt take up any % of the salary. Its just adding a player. Prince at 214 million for 9 years has the same effect on Illitch and the Tigers as Prince for 50 million over 9 years.like_that;1065501 wrote:Pretty positive post. I sort of agree. I don't see Prince's production replacing V-Mart's production in such a significant matter that he was worth $214 million. I also don't see Verlander repeating his performance of last season.
With that being said, i still don't see the Tribe competing. They just dont have the personnel imo. I am not impressed with Jimenez, and I don't see him getting back to form.
And the guy provides even more protection than Victor did. He gets a lot more RBI, HR, and BBs. This is a terrific deal for Detroit for the foreseeable future (5 yrs). I dont see how anyone can justifiably say it wasnt.