Cleveland Indians Hot Stove---2011-2012
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OQB
OIC..... -
grodt
I'm not sure how many players that Jacobs "brought it". Robbie Alomar? Maybe Orel Hersheiser. They did a great job of developing their own talent and hitting on older veterans (sound familiar?) -
BR1986FBThe glimmer is gone. Season's over before it started.
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like_that
Jacobs wouldn't spend 214 million on one player. It's a 9 year contract, I think the tigers will benefit early, but toward the end of his contract they will be hurting.Crimson streak;1064390 wrote:You have to spend money to make money. The Jacobs were smart they knew bringing in bigger names would pay for its self. Dolan is just a Jew ass bastard -
TBone14
Tribe payroll will be around 48 million. Miggy and Prince will make 44 million.
Hard to compete. -
Y-Town Steelhound
As sad as it is to say, the Detroit Tigers are a well run organization. They don't hide behind the excuse of being a "small market" team. They spend, they care, they win. As long as the SAD trio (Shapiro/Antonetti/Dolan) continues to run this franchise into the ground, Indians fans can expect to be nothing but sad. God I would give anything for Dan Gilbert to buy the Indians.
The Cleveland Indians, by no short task, have retaken their throne as the most poorly run franchise in Cleveland (at least the Browns try). Hard to imagine that just under 20 years ago this franchise was the gold standard for small market teams and had one of the new "shrines" of baseball. Funny what a change of ownership can do, but boy oh boy snow days is just swell! :rolleyes: -
BR1986FB
Shapiro & Antonetti are shitting their pants right now. With V-Mart going down there was a glimmer of hope for this year. The Tribe was close but that may have gone out the window for the next 5 years. Guys on 92.3 said it was comparable to the Ravens/Steelers being so close in the AFC North and then the Ravens signing Aaron Rodgers.Y-Town Steelhound;1064488 wrote:As sad as it is to say, the Detroit Tigers are a well run organization. They don't hide behind the excuse of being a "small market" team. They spend, they care, they win. As long as the SAD trio (Shapiro/Antonetti/Dolan) continues to run this franchise into the ground, Indians fans can expect to be nothing but sad. God I would give anything for Dan Gilbert to buy the Indians. -
Footwedge
Was that really necessary?Crimson streak;1064390 wrote:You have to spend money to make money. The Jacobs were smart they knew bringing in bigger names would pay for its self. Dolan is just a Jew ass bastard -
Footwedge
We have a cheap owner...and baseball cap rules blow. Just remember, every time you eat a Little Ceasar's pizza pie, you are contributing to the demise of the Indians chances of beating Detroit.Y-Town Steelhound;1064488 wrote:As sad as it is to say, the Detroit Tigers are a well run organization. They don't hide behind the excuse of being a "small market" team. They spend, they care, they win. As long as the SAD trio (Shapiro/Antonetti/Dolan) continues to run this franchise into the ground, Indians fans can expect to be nothing but sad. God I would give anything for Dan Gilbert to buy the Indians.
The Cleveland Indians, by no short task, have retaken their throne as the most poorly run franchise in Cleveland (at least the Browns try). Hard to imagine that just under 20 years ago this franchise was the gold standard for small market teams and had one of the new "shrines" of baseball. Funny what a change of ownership can do, but boy oh boy snow days is just swell! :rolleyes: -
Y-Town Steelhound
Mark Shapiro is THE most overrated front office person in baseball today and it amazes me how some people still defend him. The guy made his career off of ONE damn trade over a decade ago that wasn't even that good considering 1. He let the best player of the deal go to Cincy for free, 2. He essentially gave away the 2nd best player in that deal to the Phillies, and 3. the 3rd best player from that deal, who is as durable as wet paper, gets extension after extension.
But the man is a "genius" after all. Oh what's that? You signed Jason Michaels and Mark DeRosa? Good Job! Oh what's that? You traded the best pitcher in baseball for Matt LaPorta? Good Job! You traded our two best pitching prospects for an overrated head case with a 45 second delivery and no idea where the strike zone is? Good Job! Oh you re-signed another 1 year wonder with no control who turns out to be a completely different person! Good Job! Way to do a background check! Here's a promotion and a raise!
Absolutely awful. The Indians are going nowhere until the SAD trio is out of Cleveland. -
Y-Town Steelhound
Again, if only Dan Gilbert could buy the Tribe. Dolan owning the Tribe is like buying a 20 room mansion and not having enough money to furnish it.Footwedge;1064502 wrote:We have a cheap owner...and baseball cap rules blow. Just remember, every time you eat a Little Ceasar's pizza pie, you are contributing to the demise of the Indians chances of beating Detroit. -
like_that
Footwedge;1064502 wrote:We have a cheap owner...and baseball cap rules blow. Just remember, every time you eat a Little Ceasar's pizza pie, you are contributing to the demise of the Indians chances of beating Detroit.
I did not know that, however I do not eat Little Caesars. I will be sure to inform all my tribe friends though. -
like_that
]Y-Town Steelhound;1064488 wrote:As sad as it is to say, the Detroit Tigers are a well run organization. They don't hide behind the excuse of being a "small market" team. They spend, they care, they win. As long as the SAD trio (Shapiro/Antonetti/Dolan) continues to run this franchise into the ground, Indians fans can expect to be nothing but sad. God I would give anything for Dan Gilbert to buy the Indians.
The Cleveland Indians, by no short task, have retaken their throne as the most poorly run franchise in Cleveland (at least the Browns try). Hard to imagine that just under 20 years ago this franchise was the gold standard for small market teams and had one of the new "shrines" of baseball. Funny what a change of ownership can do, but boy oh boy snow days is just swell! :rolleyes:
These quotes pretty much sum it up.Y-Town Steelhound;1064504 wrote:Mark Shapiro is THE most overrated front office person in baseball today and it amazes me how some people still defend him. The guy made his career off of ONE damn trade over a decade ago that wasn't even that good considering 1. He let the best player of the deal go to Cincy for free, 2. He essentially gave away the 2nd best player in that deal to the Phillies, and 3. the 3rd best player from that deal, who is as durable as wet paper, gets extension after extension.
But the man is a "genius" after all. Oh what's that? You signed Jason Michaels and Mark DeRosa? Good Job! Oh what's that? You traded the best pitcher in baseball for Matt LaPorta? Good Job! You traded our two best pitching prospects for an overrated head case with a 45 second delivery and no idea where the strike zone is? Good Job! Oh you re-signed another 1 year wonder with no control who turns out to be a completely different person! Good Job! Way to do a background check! Here's a promotion and a raise!
Absolutely awful. The Indians are going nowhere until the SAD trio is out of Cleveland. -
royal_k
Well, this sucks.... -
grodt
The Tribe's payroll will be about $62-$65 million. We didn't sign any big contracts but our arbitration guys all got raises.TBone14;1064482 wrote:Tribe payroll will be around 48 million. Miggy and Prince will make 44 million.
Hard to compete. -
Mulva
Did you just call Brandon Phillips better than Cliff Lee?Y-Town Steelhound;1064504 wrote:The guy made his career off of ONE damn trade over a decade ago that wasn't even that good considering 1. He let the best player of the deal go to Cincy for free, 2. He essentially gave away the 2nd best player in that deal to the Phillies
I agree with you though, Shapiro is horrible. His drafting for the most part just sucked, he's lived off of a couple of good trades while somehow the horrible ones are ignored, and he refused to part ways with Eric Wedge until the Indians window of potentially being able to compete (2005-2009) was slammed shut by unacceptably slow starts derailing 06, 08, and 09 and resulting in the trading of CC/Blake and then Cliff/V-Mart the next year. -
jordo212000
You hit on some trades and you miss on others. His trade performance hasn't been great, but I still think he made a few good moves.
The Indians problems have stemmed from their inability to draft -
HitsRus
Nice that you and I agree on something for a change, 'wedge
Dolan is Catholic anyway, is he not?
That the Tigers could pull this off...no wait, let me re-phrase that...that Boras could pull this off with the Tigers is second only to him getting the Rangers to bid against themselves for A-Rod. That's one hell of a contract to eat...and you can't dump it except to a very few teams. Moreover, with that kind of jack tied up in two players, you better hope you don't have to make any moves as the season goes along. I can't imagine that they have much financial flexibility left. Another concern I'd have with that kind of a contract with Fielder is that he doesn't have the athleticism that say Pujols or A-Rod have...the guy will be fighting some tough genetics as he ages being Cecil (oink,oink too many cookies) Fielder is his dad.
That said, this does not bode well for the Tribe...and their window of opportunity. This will probably leave us in second place (at best)again. That seems to be where the Dolans are most comfortable. Might be time to start building for '17 -
grodt
I couldn't disagree more. I blame Wedge for screwing the Phillips situation up and he wasn't the best player from that trade, Lee is. As for Grady...the guy played 157 games for 4 straight years, an All-Star and Gold Glover. He suffered a freak injury that wasn't Shapiro's doing.Y-Town Steelhound;1064504 wrote:Mark Shapiro is THE most overrated front office person in baseball today and it amazes me how some people still defend him. The guy made his career off of ONE damn trade over a decade ago that wasn't even that good considering 1. He let the best player of the deal go to Cincy for free, 2. He essentially gave away the 2nd best player in that deal to the Phillies, and 3. the 3rd best player from that deal, who is as durable as wet paper, gets extension after extension.
But the man is a "genius" after all. Oh what's that? You signed Jason Michaels and Mark DeRosa? Good Job! Oh what's that? You traded the best pitcher in baseball for Matt LaPorta? Good Job! You traded our two best pitching prospects for an overrated head case with a 45 second delivery and no idea where the strike zone is? Good Job! Oh you re-signed another 1 year wonder with no control who turns out to be a completely different person! Good Job! Way to do a background check! Here's a promotion and a raise!
Absolutely awful. The Indians are going nowhere until the SAD trio is out of Cleveland.
You cite Mark DeRosa who we got a good half-season from then flipped for Chris Perez, our current closer. He turned Ben Broussard and Eduardo Perez for Shin-Soo Choo and Asdrubal Cabrera. Once more...we got two of our best players for two guys that haven't taken an at-bat since 2008. He flipped Casey Blake for Carlos Santana, our best hitter. I will admit the returns for CC Sabathia haven't been great but considering what Milwaukee got from him there probably wasn't much more available and LaPorta was a top power prospect.
Look I may be in the minority but I refuse to blame Shapiro for our current state of affairs. Any semblance of hope we have going into this season is a result of his work. -
HitsRus
^^^I think you have to give Shapiro/Antonetti some credit for doing as well as they have given the"flexibility" afforded to them by the owner. They have to roll the dice as they have little choice. It's tough to win like that when your owner is not going to give you the money to land even one player that can plug your biggest hole. Unlike Jacobs, there does not even appear to be any attempts anymore at locking in the young talent, like Hart did with Manny, Thome, Vizquel, and Lofton.
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hoops23
I think Shapiro has done a good job overall. His drafting was a weakness, which is key for a small market team.
He made several good moves though and this team was one game away from going to the World Series in 2007... SMFH -
OQB
It all comes down to the Dolan's and their control of payroll money.....you can rebuild and rebuild and add pieces for your "windows of opportunity" (which I absolutely HATE that phrase....it just shows how sad this franchise has become) Instead of spending money to win games and put fans in the seats to make more money....doesn't seem that complicated, but I guess if I was a millionaire I would like to make sure I'm taken care of first.
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IggyPride00
Dolan paid too much for the team, and never really had deep pockets to begin with. His brother was the rich one.
Jacobs had a $92 million dollar payroll more than a decade ago, and Dolan is whining and complaining about spending $60 million.
Ilitch has said he is fine losing money on the Tigers continunously because he sees it as a civic duty to the city to keep them competitive.
He is the embodiement of what a sports owner should be: a rich guy who uses the team as a hobby instead of as his main source of income.
Dolan should sell the team if he can't afford to run the team at a loss. That is what pro sports is essentially about if you want to win. It is an overpriced toy, and if you aren't in a financial position to lose big time money you are in the wrong line of work.
There are enough billionaires in this world that one of them I am sure would love to buy many of these pauper small market teams because it is a really exclusive club. Sadly owners like Dolan block the way though because they are just fine sucking the life out of a city's fan base because they know they can make money off the team if they just refuse to spend.
Good for Mike Ilitch though because he is going to lose money on that team hand over fist, but he is OK with it because he loves the Tigers and loves the people of Detroit. He has the right attitude towards owning a sports team. -
Laley23
Illitch also owns Detroit because of the Red Wings. They make him so much fucking money, with all the merchandise the sell EVERY YEAR. He may lose money on the Tigers, but he makes it up with the Wings.
But I do agree, its nice that he owns them because he loves them and not to make money. He has Little Ceasers for that. -
Mulva
And that can be countered by saying we got Brantley and LaPorta back for CC. We got Marson, Donald, and Carrasco back for Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco. We got Jeff Stevens for Brandon Phillips. We got Matt Lawton and Alex Escobar for Robbie Alomar.grodt;1064542 wrote:You cite Mark DeRosa who we got a good half-season from then flipped for Chris Perez, our current closer. He turned Ben Broussard and Eduardo Perez for Shin-Soo Choo and Asdrubal Cabrera. Once more...we got two of our best players for two guys that haven't taken an at-bat since 2008. He flipped Casey Blake for Carlos Santana, our best hitter.
He's gotten no return on less publicized moves too. Ronnie Belliard for Hector Luna was awful. Bob Wickman for Max Rodriguez. Brian Anderson for absolutely nobody.
You can't trade 2 Cy Young pitchers and not get a single impact player back. To this point, LaPorta is garbage, Marson is a backup, Donald is a backup, Carrasco is a back-end starter, and Brantley is a borderline starting outfielder. The Cliff Lee trade looks like one of the worst of all-time at this point, considering the guy was signed for another season.
And the 1 playoff appearance and 7 losing seasons we've had in the past 10 seasons is also a result of his work (especially 2006, 2008, and 2009 when they actually should have competed), accompanied by the Dolans and Wedge.grodt;1064542 wrote:Look I may be in the minority but I refuse to blame Shapiro for our current state of affairs. Any semblance of hope we have going into this season is a result of his work.