Random NBA chatter

• KR1245

  

  elbuckeye28;692065 wrote:This is such a revisionist look that is based on far too many assumptions to have much, if any, validity.

  
  Thats part of an article I took from Brain Winhorst. I dont think these are just assumptions that I am making. James didnt commit to the Cavs and they lost out on several players because of it. Its not really anything that I am making up
• elbuckeye28

  KR1245;692079 wrote:Thats part of an article I took from Brain Winhorst. I dont think these are just assumptions that I am making. James didnt commit to the Cavs and they lost out on several players because of it. Its not really anything that I am making up

  
  http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/07/it_was_after_lebron_james_sign.html
  
  I assume this is this article you are referencing. If Trevor Ariza is the big player the Cavs missed out on, then I think the situation the Cavs were in was a lot worse than originally thought. Ariza is no more than an average NBA player whose value became significantly overrated after 2009 playoffs. It would have been like Larry Hughes all over again, except Ariza never had a season even close to some of Larry Hughes' best seasons.
  
  Besides, there is a large difference between being noncommittal about the future and noncommittal about the present. Just because Lebron did not make any commitments about the future, did not mean he was not fully committed at the present.
  
  Edit: Didn't realize you linked the article above
• KR1245

  

  elbuckeye28;692092 wrote:http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/07/it_was_after_lebron_james_sign.html
  
  I assume this is this article you are referencing. If Trevor Ariza is the big player the Cavs missed out on, then I think the situation the Cavs were in was a lot worse than originally thought. Ariza is no more than an average NBA player whose value became significantly overrated after 2009 playoffs. It would have been like Larry Hughes all over again, except Ariza never had a season close to Hughes' before he came to the Cavs.
  
  Besides, there is a large difference between being noncommittal about the future and noncommittal about the present. Just because Lebron did not make any commitments about the future, did not mean he was not fully committed at the present.

  
  The article says several players. Ariza was one that could have helped. Ariza looked good in the playoffs because he was playing off of a great player. Much like he would have been doing in Cleveland.
  
  Noncomittal about the future and the present? It was the summer before Lebron was going to be a FA. If I'm going to sign a contract somwehere I would like to know tht the main reason that I am doing it would be around for more than one year.
• elbuckeye28

  KR1245;692094 wrote:The article says several players. Ariza was one that could have helped. Ariza looked good in the playoffs because he was playing off of a great player. Much like he would have been doing in Cleveland.
  
  Noncomittal about the future and the present? It was the summer before Lebron was going to be a FA. If I'm going to sign a contract somwehere I would like to know tht the main reason that I am doing it would be around for more than one year.

  When the marquee player of these "several" players is Ariza, then the Cavs did not miss out on any players that would have significantly improved the team. Besides, that season that Ariza played well in the playoffs, he averaged 8.9 points. He just got hot in the playoffs and became severely overrated as a result. If anything, the Cavs would have overspent on him and he would have been another disappointment. Besides, we still have no proof that any players interested would have actually signed. I think the fact that the Rockets traded him after one season should be proof that he was not worth the hype.
  
  As for this commitment. I am saying that just because he did not make any definitive commitments on his future, does not mean he was not committed to the Cavs when he was there. I mean people switch jobs all the time when new opportunities arrive, yet they were still fully committed when they were at their old job. Yet when Lebron does it, it's not ok. Would it have been more acceptable if he just lied to everybody instead and said he was going to resign when he wasn't sure of his future plans?
• Trueblue23

  

  robj55;692064 wrote:So Karl Malone was soft too? I don't agree with that

  
  Interesting. Last time I checked 99% isn't 100%. Never said a word about Malone, try again.
• jordo212000

  

  Skyhook79;690879 wrote:Your just not getting it. Kobe is the Superstar, he never left his team.

  
  What about the time he pouted and forced his way out of Charlotte?
• jordo212000

  

  hoops23;691081 wrote:This Denver squad is now a TEAM. Playing very well.. Of course, Boston is short handed as well...

  
  I remember when you said that you thought Cleveland would be good because they played as a "team" haha. Let's face it, at the end of the day, you gotta have stars to win in the NBA
• jordo212000

  

  thedynasty1998;691567 wrote:That's the point that everyone so conveniently ignores. Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, Bosh, all those guys signed extensions with the team that drafted them.
  
  Yet, people still want to use the argument, "The NBA sucks because it doesn't matter who drafts a guy they will just leave anyways to play with their friends."

  
  I really don't get it. Those guys were all either free agents and all had a right to choose where they are playing. I don't understand why some people think that Lebron/Bosh etc have to be the personal protectors of the small market they play in? Heck the guys playing in Miami are playing for less $$ in the name of championships. Why aren't we celebrating that?
  
  They are screwed either way. If they take the money (cough cough Joe Johnson) people bust their balls for not caring about winning and only getting the pay day (Atlanta has no shot at winning anything) OR they take less money, go to a team with a chance to win a championship, and then they get labeled as ring chasers.
• BR1986FB

  KR1245;692079 wrote:Thats part of an article I took from Brain Winhorst. I dont think these are just assumptions that I am making. James didnt commit to the Cavs and they lost out on several players because of it. Its not really anything that I am making up

  
  The article is spot on. No marquee free agents were coming to Lebron because they didn't know what his future held. Most players are looking for the max deal (5 or 6 years). With him only signing for 3, NO GOOD free agents were coming here.
  
  And as far as previous comments about him "committing" for 3 years? REALLY? It's no coincidence that a couple of other players (Bosh, Wade...the ONLY other 2 to sign 3 year extensions....Hmmmm, collusion?) also signed that same deal. They weren't "committing" to their teams. They (Bosh, Wade, LBJ) were buying time to join forces in 2010...
• BR1986FB

  jordo212000;692169 wrote:I really don't get it. Those guys were all either free agents and all had a right to choose where they are playing. I don't understand why some people think that Lebron/Bosh etc have to be the personal protectors of the small market they play in? Heck the guys playing in Miami are playing for less $$ in the name of championships. Why aren't we celebrating that?
  
  They are screwed either way. If they take the money (cough cough Joe Johnson) people bust their balls for not caring about winning and only getting the pay day (Atlanta has no shot at winning anything) OR they take less money, go to a team with a chance to win a championship, and then they get labeled as ring chasers.

  
  Carmelo didn't follow LBJ, Bosh & Wade. He signed a 5 year deal. He GAVE his team a chance to build around him.
  
  The point you guys seem to miss is that the Cleveland fans that feel, as you would say in your WAY GAY way, "butt hurt" AREN'T pissed BECAUSE he left. We're pissed because of the sneaky, underhanded way (faked an injury, tanked in Boston, followed by his "Decision" to embarrass the city) he left.
• KR1245

  

  jordo212000;692169 wrote:I really don't get it. Those guys were all either free agents and all had a right to choose where they are playing. I don't understand why some people think that Lebron/Bosh etc have to be the personal protectors of the small market they play in? Heck the guys playing in Miami are playing for less $$ in the name of championships. Why aren't we celebrating that?
  
  They are screwed either way. If they take the money (cough cough Joe Johnson) people bust their balls for not caring about winning and only getting the pay day (Atlanta has no shot at winning anything) OR they take less money, go to a team with a chance to win a championship, and then they get labeled as ring chasers.

  People are allowed to be critical of the moves these guys have made. There are plenty of people outside of this thread that dont like what they did. Guys like Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley are just a few that come to mind. We hate the way that he went about doing it. We arent celebrating it because it appears that these guys are taking the easy road. "Less money in the name of championships" gimme a fuckin break. Do you really believe that the money matters in all of this?
• jordo212000

  

  Yeah I've said all along that Lebron was handicapping his chances to win by not committing to the Cavs. He should have told those players (Ariza comes to mind) that he was re-signing. Even if he wasn't. He really cockblocked their chances of getting key free agent help, and in turn short-circuited his chances of winning a title in Cleveland.
  
  Frankly, this should have been clue 1 that he was taking his talents to South Beach. I remember it was reported that he told Ariza he was re-signing, and then the next Lebron came out and squashed the rumor. That should have been a huge clue that he wasn't returning, I mean, why else would he do that? The bargaining power is moot, because Cleveland was giving him a max deal no matter what. He had nothing to gain by gaining "leverage"
• jordo212000

  

  KR1245;692181 wrote:People are allowed to be critical of the moves these guys have made. There are plenty of people outside of this thread that dont like what they did. Guys like Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley are just a few that come to mind. We hate the way that he went about doing it. We arent celebrating it because it appears that these guys are taking the easy road. "Less money in the name of championships" gimme a fuckin break. Do you really believe that the money matters in all of this?

  Point taken. Lebron handled it poorly. I said it as it was happening (again called a troll for doing so), the Decision was a colossal mistake and it probably cost Lebron millions of $$. You can hate the way that he went about it, but IMO you can't argue his talent (you guys seem to be doing that). Just look at what has happened to Cleveland since he has been gone. Lebron's absence is going to cost them 40+ wins this year.
  
  and... they did take less money and their idea was to win a championship. I don't see what's so difficult to understand that. What do you want Chris Bosh to do? Take the max deal from Toronto and continue to waste away in Canada?
  
  Isn't the end goal to win a championship? Why are these guys so bad for doing what they think best assures them the chance to win one?
• BR1986FB

  jordo212000;692182 wrote:
  Frankly, this should have been clue 1 that he was taking his talents to South Beach. I remember it was reported that he told Ariza he was re-signing, and then the next Lebron came out and squashed the rumor. That should have been a huge clue that he wasn't returning, I mean, why else would he do that? The bargaining power is moot, because Cleveland was giving him a max deal no matter what. He had nothing to gain by gaining "leverage"

  And this is where Ferry should have called Lebron and said "fine, you're not going to commit? We'll trade you to the T-Wolves." Of course this is all hindsight and Ferry would have been as ostracized in Cleveland as Art Modell but it probably would have been the right move after seeing these warning signs.
  
  This is one of the least "stir the pot-like" posts I've seen you make about the Cavs. Congrats....
• KR1245

  

  Part of the problem is the way that they went about it. Does anybody really believe that these guys didnt discuss/plan this behind the backs of their current teams?
  
  The goal is to win a championship. They probably helped their cause. I just dont like the way that they handled it and I'm not the only one. As I previously said there are plenty of former players that have been critical of this decision. Whats wrong with working hard for what you want? It seems like these guys are taking the easy way out and I dont like that.
• BR1986FB

  jordo212000;692191 wrote: You can hate the way that he went about it, but IMO you can't argue his talent (you guys seem to be doing that).

  
  Who is arguing his talent? The guy IS probably the greatest player in the game. I've said he has no "killer instinct" for quite some time and I mentioned that he doesn't like to bang with the big boys (Boston) and you'd think I shit in someones cornflakes. I stand by those statements and until he consistently knocks down game-winning shots (not shots at the buzzer in a tie game, like he always does, because there's no pressure with overtime looming) and is willing to mix it up with Boston's interior (may be a moot point now with Perkins gone) nothing changes, IMO.
• BR1986FB

  KR1245;692202 wrote:Part of the problem is the way that they went about it. Does anybody really believe that these guys didnt discuss/plan this behind the backs of their current teams?
  
  The goal is to win a championship. They probably helped their cause. I just dont like the way that they handled it and I'm not the only one. As I previously said there are plenty of former players that have been critical of this decision. Whats wrong with working hard for what you want? It seems like these guys are taking the easy way out and I dont like that.

  
  Exactly.
• jordo212000

  

  BR1986FB;692196 wrote:And this is where Ferry should have called Lebron and said "fine, you're not going to commit? We'll trade you to the T-Wolves." Of course this is all hindsight and Ferry would have been as ostracized in Cleveland as Art Modell but it probably would have been the right move after seeing these warning signs.
  
  This is one of the least "stir the pot-like" posts I've seen you make about the Cavs. Congrats....

  
  yeah, Lebron had them by the balls. The difference between Cleveland and Denver is that Cleveland was "supposed" to win a championship. Even if the Cavs wanted to see the signs that he was leaving, and did notice them... there was nothing they could do. There was no way in Hades that they were going to trade Lebron while they were the #1 team in the East. They just couldn't do it. Fans would have burned down the arena and Danny Ferry would be in a cemetery or urn somewhere. Denver was never a serious championship contender and thus trading Melo in-season was never really an issue
  
  with that being said, Cleveland kind of took it for granted that he was returning (their pitch to Lebron was a Family Guy cartoon where they joked and laughed with him and wanted to show how much they "knew" him).
  
  They "tried" to get talent around him, and they did so admirably, but at the end of the day it wasn't good enough and Lebron needs about 75% of the blame for that.
• jordo212000

  

  KR1245;692202 wrote: The goal is to win a championship. They probably helped their cause. I just dont like the way that they handled it and I'm not the only one. As I previously said there are plenty of former players that have been critical of this decision. Whats wrong with working hard for what you want? It seems like these guys are taking the easy way out and I dont like that.

  Who says they aren't working hard? Who says Lebron would win a championship in Cleveland with Mo freaking Williams as his sidekick? Who thinks Bosh ever gets out of the 2nd round with Toronto?
  
  Lebron handled it poorly. Bosh and Wade did not. End of story.
  
  Winning a championship is never "easy" and I'm not even sure these guys will actually win a championship this season. But for them, doing what they did gave them the best chance to win a championship. Which at the end of the day, is what 'this' is all about. Nobody cares that you were the marquee player for a bad Toronto team. They want to see rings
• BR1986FB

  jordo212000;692206 wrote:
  with that being said, Cleveland kind of took it for granted that he was returning (their pitch to Lebron was a Family Guy cartoon where they joked and laughed with him and wanted to show how much they "knew" him).

  This is where I kind of take issue with Dan Gilbert. When Gilbert went on his tirade after the Decision I believe he said something to the effect that the Cavs had not had contact with Lebron or his agent for 6 weeks (or more) after the season ended. This was their golden opportunity to "work him" and convince him to stay but LBJ & Company wouldn't return calls. This should have been a sign also. Yes, Lebron fucked them by not giving them any chance to sign replacement free agents but the fact that Gilbert had no "plan B" if LBJ were to bolt is inexcusable.
• OQB

  

  You're going to see more and more smaller market teams trading their star player away before their contract expires and they don't get anything for them, just so they don't have to go through what cleveland did. We've already seen Denver and Utah do this, next will be new Orleans and Orlando next season. Then it will be durant and Blake griffins turn to join a trio...
  
  The NBA has to do something during the cba negotiations to stop this.
• jordo212000

  

  OQB;692226 wrote:You're going to see more and more smaller market teams trading their star player away before their contract expires and they don't get anything for them, just so they don't have to go through what cleveland did. We've already seen Denver and Utah do this, next will be new Orleans and Orlando next season. Then it will be durant and Blake griffins turn to join a trio...
  
  The NBA has to do something during the cba negotiations to stop this.

  Smh. There is nothing they can do when these guys' contracts are up. They are FREE agents. They are free to go where they want. Why does the NBA "have" to do anything? The NBA is more popular than it has been in years
• Hb31187

  

  Wonder how many "sky is falling" type comments there will be on here/espn because the NYK lost this game to the Cavs it looks like
• Jester

  

  Hb31187;692236 wrote:Wonder how many "sky is falling" type comments there will be on here/espn because the NYK lost this game to the Cavs it looks like

  Don't jinx them!
• Hb31187

  

  Too late, Billups is feelin it now hahah