losing your religion

• sleeper

  

  QuakerOats;1791811 wrote:link?

  I was merely pointing out that you cannot make that statement because it is unproven.
  
  You can't ask for proof of a negative idea. For example, you can't say unicorns exist because I can't prove that they don't exist. Again, religious people have no concept of how the world works.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791815 wrote:Presenting you with knowledge and logic that go against every your believe in. That typically produces a response of anger.

  I have never experienced that. Might you have any valuable reason to share with me that it should make me mad?
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791813 wrote:Turn them off??? Not use them??? I've never heard that suggested before.

  When you can only rely on faith and not evidence, then you have to turn off any gift god gave you.
  
  The irony is religion is the only thing on the planet most people accept that its okay to not have any evidence to support. Even, vaccines cause autism at least has some evidence even if its been debunked by the process of science. Religion cannot hold a candle in the process of science because its support is based on fear and ignorance, not enlightenment.
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791818 wrote:I have never experienced that. Might you have any valuable reason to share with me that it should make me mad?

  The reason you don't get mad is that you are delusional. You have to isolate yourself from reality in order to cope with the realization that your dearests beliefs are all made up directly to control your life.
  
  It's not an atypical thing so you are fine.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791819 wrote:When you can only rely on faith and not evidence, then you have to turn off any gift god gave you.
  
  ....

  This suggests that faith in and of itself isn't a gift from God....else it would have to be turned off.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791821 wrote:The reason you don't get mad is that you are delusional. You have to isolate yourself from reality in order to cope with the realization that your dearests beliefs are all made up directly to control your life.
  
  It's not an atypical thing so you are fine.

  Might you have any valuable reasons I, or anyone for that matter, should be mad when others disagree with someones belief?
• rocketalum

  My point is, If there's a God and we've been given these faculties by that God, that when applied make belief in all powerful omnipresent deity difficult at best, maybe that's a bit of a design flaw.
  
  As Sleeper said, it's all made up anyway so it's really just a fun hypothetical. Why create something then give it no ability to understand your existence other than "faith"
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791822 wrote:This suggests that faith in and of itself isn't a gift from God....else it would have to be turned off.

  Except faith is meaningless. Faith is a logical loophole designed to keep people from growing up and accepting their beliefs are entirely made up.
  
  The statement "I have faith I don't have cancer" doesn't change that you may in fact have cancer. Having faith isn't admirable or courageous, it's a joke and you fell for it. Congrats!
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791825 wrote:Except faith is meaningless. Faith is a logical loophole designed to keep people from growing up and accepting their beliefs are entirely made up.
  
  The statement "I have faith I don't have cancer" doesn't change that you may in fact have cancer. Having faith isn't admirable or courageous, it's a joke and you fell for it. Congrats!

  ...so I don't have to "turn it off" then as you previously stated?
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791824 wrote:Might you have any valuable reasons I, or anyone for that matter, should be mad when others disagree with someones belief?

  Yes, the reasons I have already outlined numerous times but you continue to ignore.
  
  Also, it's not disagreeing. This isn't a debate. This is like you disagreeing that water is wet and me telling you that in fact, water is wet. Let's make sure we frame this as what it truly is. This is a discussion on why you are wrong.
• Con_Alma

  rocketalum;1791826 wrote:My point is, If there's a God and we've been given these faculties by that God, that when applied make belief in all powerful omnipresent deity difficult at best, maybe that's a bit of a design flaw.
  
  As Sleeper said, it's all made up anyway so it's really just a fun hypothetical. Why create something then give it no ability to understand your existence other than "faith"

  "...give it no ability to understand"...I don't agree that is the case.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791828 wrote:Yes, the reasons I have already outlined numerous times but you continue to ignore.
  
  Also, it's not disagreeing. This isn't a debate. This is like you disagreeing that water is wet and me telling you that in fact, water is wet. Let's make sure we frame this as what it truly is. This is a discussion on why you are wrong.

  I would agree it's not a debate. I admit I don't see the value in getting mad based on others questioning or disagreeing with my beliefs.
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791827 wrote:...so I don't have to "turn it off" then as you previously stated?

  You do if you value any semblance of intellectual integrity. Faith should only be used when you went to give yourself false confidence, not in a discussion regarding your fundamental belief system.
  
  For example, "I have faith that I will survive this jump off the cliff" is a valid statement but has no zero impact on your actual chances of surviving the jump. If you say "I have faith in God" it's the same set up. I have faith merely implies that you believe something to be true but in reality there is zero evidence of what you believe and that faith alone is not good enough to justify your fundamental belief system.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791833 wrote:You do if you value any semblance of intellectual integrity. Faith should only be used when you went to give yourself false confidence, not in a discussion regarding your fundamental belief system.
  
  For example, "I have faith that I will survive this jump off the cliff" is a valid statement but has no zero impact on your actual chances of surviving the jump. If you say "I have faith in God" it's the same set up. I have faith merely implies that you believe something to be true but in reality there is zero evidence of what you believe and that faith alone is not good enough to justify your fundamental belief system.

  
  "When you can only rely on faith and not evidence, then you have to turn off any gift god gave you."
  
  I'm trying to understand if you think God gave me the ifts of reason and logic but not the gift of faith...based on your above statement.
• rocketalum

  Con_Alma;1791829 wrote:"...give it no ability to understand"...I don't agree that is the case.

  And I think that's totally fine. I think the whole thing is made up nonsense and you do not and hey, that's ok. Whatever helps any of us navigate our way through this world is fine by me. I honestly just enjoy the conversation. I may personally find religion, faith, and a traditional sense of God foolish but I'm always fascinated to see how other people interpret it.
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791832 wrote:I would agree it's not a debate. I admit I don't see the value in getting mad, however, because others may question or disagree with my beliefs.

  Well I can't help that delusional people don't get mad when they simply go "I have faith that I am right".
  
  You can't fix stupid, Con_Alma! You can only hope they don't reproduce in nearly the same number as the intelligent citizens of society. Also, I would never put my money and time into something that with more knowledge, the value diminishes. It takes all about 10 seconds on the internet to see that religion is fraud and you have to be downright delusional to still buy into the scam.
• Con_Alma

  rocketalum;1791835 wrote:And I think that's totally fine. I think the whole thing is made up nonsense and you do not and hey, that's ok. Whatever helps any of us navigate our way through this world is fine by me. I honestly just enjoy the conversation. I may personally find religion, faith, and a traditional sense of God foolish but I'm always fascinated to see how other people interpret it.

  I enjoy the conversation myself. I'm apparently supposed to be mad at you though. ??? I don't understand that at all.
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791834 wrote:"When you can only rely on faith and not evidence, then you have to turn off any gift god gave you."
  
  I'm trying to understand if you think God gave me the ifts of reason and logic but not the gift of faith...based on your above statement.

  Well, the question you asked, first of all, assumes a god. So I will be nice and assume there is a god(which there never has and never will be evidence of).
  
  I think this hypothetical "God" probably did give you the tools of logic and reason but you were taught, through childhood indoctrination, certain logical loopholes to conveniently circumvent those abilities. Faith is the ultimate cop out.
  
  I can prove this by simply using two words to destroy any religious belief being based on logic and reason: Prove it.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791837 wrote:Well I can't help that delusional people don't get mad when they simply go "I have faith that I am right".
  
  You can't fix stupid, Con_Alma! You can only hope they don't reproduce in nearly the same number as the intelligent citizens of society. Also, I would never put my money and time into something that with more knowledge, the value diminishes. It takes all about 10 seconds on the internet to see that religion is fraud and you have to be downright delusional to still buy into the scam.

  I wasn't asking for you to help the delusion but rather what value you saw in getting mad.
• sleeper

  

  rocketalum;1791835 wrote:And I think that's totally fine. I think the whole thing is made up nonsense and you do not and hey, that's ok. Whatever helps any of us navigate our way through this world is fine by me. I honestly just enjoy the conversation. I may personally find religion, faith, and a traditional sense of God foolish but I'm always fascinated to see how other people interpret it.

  I don't have any problem with it either as long as religious people A) Admit its entirely based on faith and not evidence or logic, B) Keep those beliefs to themselves so as to not poison society with more ignorance(ie, stay the fuck out of our laws and government).
  
  That's all I ask. But, here we are, in 2016, with religious people championing ignorance and parroting this trash despite information being everywhere.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791839 wrote:Well, the question you asked, first of all, assumes a god. So I will be nice and assume there is a god(which there never has and never will be evidence of).
  
  I think this hypothetical "God" probably did give you the tools of logic and reason but you were taught, through childhood indoctrination, certain logical loopholes to conveniently circumvent those abilities. Faith is the ultimate cop out.
  
  I can prove this by simply using two words to destroy any religious belief being based on logic and reason: Prove it.

  
  Your above statement contains that you think the "hypothetical God" did give us the tools of logic and reason. What I didn't understand was if you thought the "hypothetical God" gave us the tool of faith. If hid did we couldn't turn off all the tools God provided us in order to believe in him.
  
  Just trying to understand your statement is all.
• Con_Alma

  sleeper;1791841 wrote:... B) Keep those beliefs to themselves ...

  I don't see that happening anytime soon.
• rocketalum

  Totally agree on point B. I was actually just about to type out a follow up qualifying my statement a bit by saying don't push it on kids that have no capability to discern if it's bullshit or valuable to them. They're just following along with parents and peers as any kid would. And don't push it onto society as a whole. Jihadists trying to establish the next Caliphate or American Evangelicals trying to turn us into a Christian theocracy...they're both assholes. One may be a more colossal barbaric asshole of course.
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791840 wrote:I wasn't asking for you to help the delusion but rather what value you saw in getting mad.

  For me, there is no value in getting mad. My beliefs are based on evidence and logic and not faith and bullshit. If something comes along that goes contrary to my logical, evidence-based viewpoint, I examine the argument, ask for evidence, and consider their point of view. I sometimes change my mind and adapt to the new evidence and continue to research and understand as much as I can about every topic.
  
  Now contrast that to religious belief. You start with no evidence, an indoctrinated belief, and a fiction book. There's nothing to critically evaluate because none of those objects matter so when presented with a countering viewpoint you have nothing to defend yourself. When a kitten is backed into a corner of against a fleet of falcons, it has no choice but to get mad in an attempt to obfuscate the fact it's about to get eaten. I agree there is no value; its simply a normal response. The fact that you do not get mad, simply means you have either deluded yourself to the point of no return or are purposefully obtuse.
• sleeper

  

  Con_Alma;1791842 wrote:Your above statement contains that you think the "hypothetical God" did give us the tools of logic and reason. What I didn't understand was if you thought the "hypothetical God" gave us the tool of faith. If hid did we couldn't turn off all the tools God provided us in order to believe in him.
  
  Just trying to understand your statement is all.

  When tools counteract each other, you will pick what is most convenient. God only exists for believers so this God also allows for the tool of ignorance and faith to override logic and reason.