Archive

Agree or Disagree: Poor People

  • sleeper
    Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

    Poor people are poor because they consistently make poor choices throughout their entire life.


    ​
  • gut
    Well, some just aren't smart enough to do anything other than flip burgers.
  • BR1986FB
    Disagree. Sometimes, like the old movie "Trading Places", it's environment. I know people who have leeched off of Welfare their whole lives. That's all they've ever known, knowledge passed down from generation to generation. These people I'd like to club like a baby seal, but I digress.

    This may sound extremely dumb but I never knew what Welfare was until I moved to the town I live in about 12 years ago. I had never been around it.
  • thavoice
    BR1986FB;1648048 wrote:Disagree. Sometimes, like the old movie "Trading Places", it's environment. I know people who have leeched off of Welfare their whole lives. That's all they've ever known, knowledge passed down from generation to generation. These people I'd like to club like a baby seal, but I digress.

    This may sound extremely dumb but I never knew what Welfare was until I moved to the town I live in about 12 years ago. I had never been around it.
    True. I also really dont know or have known anyone who has been on welfare.
  • sleeper
    Since the last two posts have tried to make this about race, this includes poor people other than black people.
  • BR1986FB
    thavoice;1648052 wrote:True. I also really dont know or have known anyone who has been on welfare.
    Where I live, Meth Lab Central, it's the income of choice. I think they play a couple of cute little games called "who can get pregnant the youngest so they can collect a check" and "who can come up with the most creative way to fake a disability so the hard working US citizens can pay for me."
  • Heretic
    BR1986FB;1648048 wrote:Disagree. Sometimes, like the old movie "Trading Places", it's environment. I know people who have leeched off of Welfare their whole lives. That's all they've ever known, knowledge passed down from generation to generation. These people I'd like to club like a baby seal, but I digress.

    This may sound extremely dumb but I never knew what Welfare was until I moved to the town I live in about 12 years ago. I had never been around it.
    True. I think the saying would be true if everyone across the board had access to the same sort of environment, but I think with the shit environment a lot of people have, it'd be more accurate to replace "they consistently make poor decisions" with something along the lines of the decisions their parents, neighbors, etc. have made that stuck them in a pretty big hole right from conception.

    I turned out well, but I had a lot of things working in my favor, like a two-parent household, the ability to focus on academics without having to hold down a job to make it through and so on. It's easy to take things like that for granted and bash others for dumb decisions, while ignoring the fact I had next-to-no adversity holding me back that I had to fight through.
  • BR1986FB
    Heretic;1648057 wrote:True. I think the saying would be true if everyone across the board had access to the same sort of environment, but I think with the shit environment a lot of people have, it'd be more accurate to replace "they consistently make poor decisions" with something along the lines of the decisions their parents, neighbors, etc. have made that stuck them in a pretty big hole right from conception.

    I turned out well, but I had a lot of things working in my favor, like a two-parent household, the ability to focus on academics without having to hold down a job to make it through and so on. It's easy to take things like that for granted and bash others for dumb decisions, while ignoring the fact I had next-to-no adversity holding me back that I had to fight through.
    The mother of my girlfriend's nieces, who was murdered in her early 20's, had 4 kids by the age of 21. When she was going to get her tubes tied, her "mama" told her "no, no, no....don't do that.....you won't be able to have any more babies and collect more checks."

    I came from a not so well to do farm community but was Hellbent to "rise above" and get out of that small town, make something of myself and, most of all, get away from my father.
  • ernest_t_bass
    Disagree
  • TedSheckler
    gut;1648045 wrote:Well, some just aren't smart enough to do anything other than flip burgers.
    [video=youtube;eiRGRvE_Wqg][/video]
  • Zoltan
    Some yes, and some no. It also depends on your definition of "poor." Some people are really nice, good citizens, but just do not value money that much.

    I know a few people I would call poor, but they are pretty happy and tend to spend their life helping other (pastors, volunteer workers, etc.)
  • sleeper
    I think probably most of you already know my answer, but I agree with the statement. I think poor people can be given a bad starting point and what not but consistently making smart choices will eventually pull you out of poverty regardless of where you started.
  • vball10set
    sleeper;1648079 wrote:I think probably most of you already know my answer, but I agree with the statement. I think poor people can be given a bad starting point and what not but consistently making smart choices will eventually pull you out of poverty regardless of where you started.

    I agree, but these people have to somehow find themselves in a position to make these smart choices.
  • DeyDurkie5
    BR1986FB;1648060 wrote:The mother of my girlfriend's nieces, who was murdered in her early 20's, had 4 kids by the age of 21. When she was going to get her tubes tied, her "mama" told her "no, no, no....don't do that.....you won't be able to have any more babies and collect more checks."

    I came from a not so well to do farm community but was Hellbent to "rise above" and get out of that small town, make something of myself and, most of all, get away from my father.
    So you moved to "meth lab central"?
  • Belly35
    Poor are poor because they want to be.. ..... Poor choices, bad attitude, poor perspective and mentality that someone owns them something they haven't earned.
  • gut
    That's why the liberal messages of "the deck is stacked against you" (ridiculous, really...that's an argument that should primarily be reserved for top 5% struggling to break thru to the top 1%) and the whole victimization mentality is so poisonous.

    Smart, hard-working people take the adversity they've overcome for granted. Does environment have something to do with perserverance? Sure, but it's also a personal choice, one that the above mentality is so destructive for.

    There are many reasons, ultimately. But people who lack talent typically don't have jobs they enjoy, and so if you give them an out they will choose the path of least resistance. Who would do a job they hate for an extra $10k a year, especially if the alternative is no job at all and live off the gubmit?

    And, sorry, stupidity breeds stupidity....literally and figuratively.
  • KB0938
    Disagree, I think like BR said its about environment. Sure there's some people born into poor situations that rise up and drag themselves out of that situation, but he majority of people born into that situation have the odds against them from the beginning
  • Dr Winston O'Boogie
    I think it is mostly choices that put people there. The exception are people who are not mentally capable of seeing alternatives.

    This said, I think it would be extremely difficult to come from a terrible background and have the drive and understanding to pull out of it. It happens and can happen. But people who do that are truly exceptional. They generally go against what they've been taught and that is really hard. I try not to take for granted the values I learned from an early age. Those things seem like common sense to me now. But that's because I was shown through example over and over. I was also given love and support to do the hard work in life. Had I not had the example, love, support, etc, I don't know that I could walk around and say "I'd have made good anyway". I just don't know the answer to that. I'd like to think I would have. But some circumstances and mentalities are extremely hard to overcome.
  • gut
    KB0938;1648112 wrote:Disagree, I think like BR said its about environment. Sure there's some people born into poor situations that rise up and drag themselves out of that situation, but he majority of people born into that situation have the odds against them from the beginning
    The odds against them are mainly hereditary. But there's really no excuse for not getting a GED or attending college (if you have the ability). At some point, they have to accept responsbility and take control of their life. Even a GED doesn't resign someone to poverty if they are embrace a strong work ethic. But, again, what some people are excusing as environment is really just a conscious choice to take the easy way out.

    It's interesting to me that immigrants, even illegal ones, tend to have a much stronger work ethic than poor natural born citizens. I think that's both a combination of a lack of entitlement ($8/hr is so rich to them they save money to send back home) as well as not being raised on welfare. But certainly many of them learn the welfare game, as well. It's less a question of environment than one of incentives.
  • xKoToVxSyNdRoMe
    sleeper;1648079 wrote:I think probably most of you already know my answer, but I agree with the statement. I think poor people can be given a bad starting point and what not but consistently making smart choices will eventually pull you out of poverty regardless of where you started.
    belly agrees with you. Nothing else needs said.
  • HelloAgain
    gut;1648117 wrote:It's interesting to me that immigrants, even illegal ones, tend to have a much stronger work ethic than poor natural born citizens. I think that's both a combination of a lack of entitlement ($8/hr is so rich to them they save money to send back home) as well as not being raised on welfare. But certainly many of them learn the welfare game, as well. It's less a question of environment than one of incentives.
    I'd say it has far more to do with selection bias. Immigrants are the select poor people from their own country who had so much desire and ambition towards a better life that they did whatever they needed and even risked their safety in many cases to get to a place they believed provided them a better opportunity.

    To answer the question, it's very easy as a person who was born into relatively fortunate circumstance to say all you need is hard work and ambition to make it. When you are born into a shit community, with bad/no parents, terrible schools, etc., the deck is certainly stacked against you. Some people can make it out of that situation, but you have to be a little lucky.

    Most evidence points to parents' income & education level as being more correlated to success than a child's IQ, work ethic, social skills, etc. Is it impossible to make it out of even the worst circumstances? No, but it's not as simple as "poor people are poor because they're dumb."
  • Mulva
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause
  • gut
    HelloAgain;1648132 wrote:I'd say it has far more to do with selection bias. Immigrants are the select poor people from their own country who had so much desire and ambition towards a better life...

    ...Most evidence points to parents' income & education level as being more correlated to success than a child's IQ, work ethic, social skills, etc.
    So basically you agree that it's work ethic and attitude. At what point does a person take responsibility for that instead of blaming shitty parents? The deck isn't stacked against anyone - certainly 18-20 is not too late and an age when people need to be accountable for their own circumstance. It's not that the path to success is some hidden secret, they choose not to embrace it because it's hard or they've bought into the mantra of "stacked deck" and "victimization" the left drills into them again and again and again.

    Put another way, we're dealing with a different form of selection bias where people lack desire and ambition. It's not some magic formula - show up to work, on time, every day and do a good and conscientious job. All these excuses are just pure bullshit.
  • HelloAgain
    gut;1648138 wrote:The deck isn't stacked against anyone
    Eh, not really worth having a discussion if you legitimately believe that statement to be fact.

    Circumstance has a massive influence on who we are not only in the aggregate, but moment to moment. There's endless empirical research about this that can be fascinating reads if you go in without a black and white world view.
    Good link. No one feels they fall into this trap, but it's human nature. The human brain does a great job of filling in the gaps in our ability to understand, see: religion.
  • Pick6
    I mostly agree with gut, but see the other side some as well. Coming from a very rural area and one of the poorest counties in Ohio, I've seen just as many people with odds stacked against the make it who haven't. You can do it if you have the drive. ANYONE can graduate high school and ANYONE can go to college. Hold yourself accountable.