Concealed Carry

• justincredible

  

  10 hours in a classroom seems ridiculous overboard and arbitrary. I'd much rather spend more time on the range. It seems like a MUCH more important part of the class, IMO.
• TedSheckler

  

  The range isn't the classroom.
  
  I agree with you, 10 hours is probably too much, but the law is the law. Do it the right way.
• Pick6

  

  I have yet to take the CC course (so I do not know all that they go over, and could be off base), but I am very familiar with how to use and shoot a gun. I can see the importance of classroom time. Knowing the laws would be more important to me (to avoid potential legal trouble) than range time shooting the gun. I understand not everybody is like this, but it's just another way to look at it.
• justincredible

  

  Pick6;1547782 wrote:I have yet to take the CC course (so I do not know all that they go over, and could be off base), but I am very familiar with how to use and shoot a gun. I can see the importance of classroom time. Knowing the laws would be more important to me (to avoid potential legal trouble) than range time shooting the gun. I understand not everybody is like this, but it's just another way to look at it.

  I don't disagree with you. But 10 hours? I could see it being a problem if they were doing 2 hours in the classroom and 2 hours on the range and calling it a day.
• Pick6

  

  justincredible;1547786 wrote:I don't disagree with you. But 10 hours? I could see it being a problem if they were doing 2 hours in the classroom and 2 hours on the range and calling it a day.

  yeah i'm sure most of the class time is going over redundant shit and I wouldn't be learning anything, much like my class to get my hunter's license.
• Me?

  

  The law part of it doesn't even take very long, it's not like you're studying the tax code. There really isn't that much law to go over. They want 10 hours focused mostly on safe handling. Which is ridiculous. You can go over safe handling in a class of 10 in about an hour, MAYBE two. But the real application of it and the real knowledge is picked up at the range. Since we spent more time at the range, we were able to do some shooting drills that I doubt hardly any concealed instructor ever puts their students through and it was a huge help for most of the class. Even I benefited from some of the things we had time to do on the range. Range time is so valuable. It's ACTUAL practice instead of just talking about the same 3 or 4 things over and over again for hours. I'd rather the people who are carrying around me have the range him with a real instructor rather than by themselves. He was able to correct so many problems that most of the people in my class had and they were much better shooters for it.
• Me?

  

  I've put well over 100,000 rounds down range in the last 2 or 3 years and just took my concealed class last year. I literally required no instruction. I could have aced the test as soon as I walked in. I was actually a better shooter than my instructor by a considerable margin. But like I said, even I benefited from some of the stuff we did on the range. I understand the state standards are the law, but I'd much rather instructors put out safe and competent shooters than follow the law word for word.
• WebFire

  Me?;1547794 wrote:I've put well over 100,000 rounds down range in the last 2 or 3 years and just took my concealed class last year. I literally required no instruction. I could have aced the test as soon as I walked in. I was actually a better shooter than my instructor by a considerable margin. But like I said, even I benefited from some of the stuff we did on the range. I understand the state standards are the law, but I'd much rather instructors put out safe and competent shooters than follow the law word for word.

  Sometimes it your types that justify needing 10 hours in the classroom. Just sayin'.
• LJ

  

  Me?;1547792 wrote:The law part of it doesn't even take very long, it's not like you're studying the tax code. There really isn't that much law to go over. They want 10 hours focused mostly on safe handling. Which is ridiculous. You can go over safe handling in a class of 10 in about an hour, MAYBE two. But the real application of it and the real knowledge is picked up at the range. Since we spent more time at the range, we were able to do some shooting drills that I doubt hardly any concealed instructor ever puts their students through and it was a huge help for most of the class. Even I benefited from some of the things we had time to do on the range. Range time is so valuable. It's ACTUAL practice instead of just talking about the same 3 or 4 things over and over again for hours. I'd rather the people who are carrying around me have the range him with a real instructor rather than by themselves. He was able to correct so many problems that most of the people in my class had and they were much better shooters for it.

  Me?;1547794 wrote:I've put well over 100,000 rounds down range in the last 2 or 3 years and just took my concealed class last year. I literally required no instruction. I could have aced the test as soon as I walked in. I was actually a better shooter than my instructor by a considerable margin. But like I said, even I benefited from some of the stuff we did on the range. I understand the state standards are the law, but I'd much rather instructors put out safe and competent shooters than follow the law word for word.

  You're an idiot
• Me?

  

  LOL...ok, because what I said isn't valid? Time reading a book and watching videos about safe firearm handling is a more productive way of teaching and learning competent safe handling and operation than range time is, huh?
• Me?

  

  If I'm an idiot then so is my NRA licensed, former special ops instructor.
• Glory Days

  

  Me?;1547773 wrote:If you agree with the way the state designates it, then you're an idiot. I don't mean to be offensive, but it's CLEAR to anyone with a brain and certainly any gun enthusiast that the range time is literally a million times more valuable than the classroom time. 10 hours in the classroom for a concealed permit is asinine. There isn't even enough information to take up the whole 10 hours. We still covered everything that was supposed to be covered.
  
  I'll put my instructor and the way he did it up against ANY instructor that goes by the book and I guarantee the people coming out of the class I took are far more capable with a gun at the end of it. I have another friend who is an instructor and sat in on his class one day when my sister took it. He did it by the book. About half the class was nowhere near what I would call ready to carry a gun in public after 2 hours on the range. The classroom time literally did almost nothing for anyone except bore them to death.

  its not the state's job to teach you HOW to shoot though. its their job to teach you when you can pull the trigger and what to expect and all that other stuff.
• TedSheckler

  

  Glory Days;1548082 wrote:its not the state's job to teach you HOW to shoot though. its their job to teach you when you can pull the trigger and what to expect and all that other stuff.

  10 points for Gryffindor!!
• LJ

  

  Me?;1548000 wrote:If I'm an idiot then so is my NRA licensed, former special ops instructor.

  Sounds like it. Sounds like he is an awful instructor.
• Me?

  

  Alright, LJ, answer my question then...
  
  Time reading a book and watching videos about safe firearm handling is a more productive way of teaching and learning competent safe handling and operation than range time is, huh?
  
  
  The truth is, the state can't teach you what to expect, but the more time you spend shooting your gun and getting comfortable with it, the better you'll be with it in any situation. The laws take very little time to go over. Isn't the most important part of this entire thing SAFE and COMPETENT shooting? Or is it just to send a bunch of people who know the law really well out into the world with guns they don't know how to shoot properly? The state is also currently passing legislation that takes the required time from 12 hours to 4 hours. But please, tell me more about how reading a book makes you a better shooter than actually shooting. Because, you know, the police and military are clearly wasting their time and resources when they're on the practice range--they could just read how to do it in a book and watch a few NRA videos.
• WebFire

  Me?;1548152 wrote:Alright, LJ, answer my question then...
  
  Time reading a book and watching videos about safe firearm handling is a more productive way of teaching and learning competent safe handling and operation than range time is, huh?
  
  
  The truth is, the state can't teach you what to expect, but the more time you spend shooting your gun and getting comfortable with it, the better you'll be with it in any situation. The laws take very little time to go over. Isn't the most important part of this entire thing SAFE and COMPETENT shooting? Or is it just to send a bunch of people who know the law really well out into the world with guns they don't know how to shoot properly? The state is also currently passing legislation that takes the required time from 12 hours to 4 hours. But please, tell me more about how reading a book makes you a better shooter than actually shooting. Because, you know, the police and military are clearly wasting their time and resources when they're on the practice range--they could just read how to do it in a book and watch a few NRA videos.

  Wrong. The course is not a shooting proficiency course. There are other courses for that. To your point, one should never just rely on the little range training they get with a CHL course.
• LJ

  

  WebFire;1548156 wrote:Wrong. The course is not a shooting proficiency course. There are other courses for that. To your point, one should never just rely on the little range training they get with a CHL course.

  Bingo. The course is supposed to be about the laws and outcomes. Situations to avoid, how to handle yourself in situations. Its not a handgun proficiency training course.
• Me?

  

  Agreed. But some people are making really bad mistakes when they're shooting and they continually practice their bad habits when they're by themselves. It's not a benefit for someone who is going to be CARRYING a gun in public to have a certified NRA instructor observe them and help them correct their mistakes?
  
  I understand it isn't a shooting proficiency course, the point is, all the stuff you have to do in the classroom wouldn't take 10 hours to teach to a 8 year old.
• Me?

  

  LJ;1548161 wrote:Bingo. The course is supposed to be about the laws and outcomes. Situations to avoid, how to handle yourself in situations. Its not a handgun proficiency training course.

  Why are you afraid to answer my question?
• WebFire

  Me?;1548164 wrote:Agreed. But some people are making really bad mistakes when they're shooting and they continually practice their bad habits when they're by themselves. It's not a benefit for someone who is going to be CARRYING a gun in public to have a certified NRA instructor observe them and help them correct their mistakes?
  
  I understand it isn't a shooting proficiency course, the point is, all the stuff you have to do in the classroom wouldn't take 10 hours to teach to a 8 year old.

  You are not wrong at all in this statement. However, you either need to increase the range time requirement, while not reducing the classroom instruction, or require another class be taken before a license is issued. I would have no problem with either one.
  
  As for your last point, yes, for anyone with gun experience, it is dry and seems redundant. But not everyone is a student with your proficiency, and the state has to assume they have zero experience.
• Me?

  

  I agree with that as well, but my point remains, you could teach all of it in far less than 10 hours. The people who were in my class and knew nothing going in would tell you it was redundant. I think if we're going to assume someone has zero experience, it's even more of a reason to put them on the range.
  
  Regardless, I'll defend my instructor. He's fantastic. Like I said, he's former special operator, the dude knows what he's doing. I certainly won't accept being called an idiot by people who seem to think that range time isn't that important. I'm likely a better shooter than anyone here (maybe not), and it isn't because I have some special ability that other people don't, it's because I've spent far more time on the range than the vast majority of people. It's the most important part of the entire process and it's not even close. Learning how to properly handle and operate your firearm and correcting bad habits is crucial. The "it's not a shooting proficiency test" arguments are bogus. Just because you spend extra time on the range doesn't mean you're working on tighter groupings. For many in my class, it was working on them hitting the target at all. In the beginning, 8 of the 10 in our class couldn't put 5 rounds on a paper plate from 10 yards. At the end, everyone could. They all learned MUCH more on the range than they did in the classroom.
  
  Here is the law. Anyone who thinks they need 10 hours to cover that, I can suggest some other classes I think you ought to take.
• Belly35

  

  As a once weapon expert and not having a weapon for more than 30 years after Vietnam. I took extreme detail to learn about weapons again. Once my personal weapon was chosen again detail in taking it apart, learning about it, understanding the trigger pull everything and anything about this weapon I wanted to know. Shooting is one aspect of being proficient, clearing a jam, misfire and a whole lot of what ifs situation is vital to being a weapon owner.
  When I took my class without question I was a better shooter … impressive maybe but that was never the goal of taking the class.
  What was disturbing was the first time weapon owners clueless of their weapon and the function of their weapon.
  I’m a huge supporter of CCW however to be honest more should be required.
  Belly Standard CCW requirements;
  5 hours of class room: laws, rules, home / carry / automotive safety, situational video events (what if), equipment carry options.
  3 hours of personal weapon maintenance and operational function instruction
  6 hours of instructor range training and shooting
  2 hours of individual range shooting without instructors within 30 day of last class.
  
  14 hours of instruction brake down: Saturday morning 5 hours
  Sunday morning 5 hours 3/2
  Following Saturday morning 4 hour shooting
  2 hours individual range time within 30 days…
• Me?

  

  "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Belly35 again."
• queencitybuckeye

  A shooting proficiency course should be a prerequisite to a CCW course, not part of one.
• LJ

  

  Me?;1548188 wrote:I agree with that as well, but my point remains, you could teach all of it in far less than 10 hours. The people who were in my class and knew nothing going in would tell you it was redundant. I think if we're going to assume someone has zero experience, it's even more of a reason to put them on the range.
  
  Regardless, I'll defend my instructor. He's fantastic. Like I said, he's former special operator, the dude knows what he's doing. I certainly won't accept being called an idiot by people who seem to think that range time isn't that important. I'm likely a better shooter than anyone here (maybe not), and it isn't because I have some special ability that other people don't, it's because I've spent far more time on the range than the vast majority of people. It's the most important part of the entire process and it's not even close. Learning how to properly handle and operate your firearm and correcting bad habits is crucial. The "it's not a shooting proficiency test" arguments are bogus. Just because you spend extra time on the range doesn't mean you're working on tighter groupings. For many in my class, it was working on them hitting the target at all. In the beginning, 8 of the 10 in our class couldn't put 5 rounds on a paper plate from 10 yards. At the end, everyone could. They all learned MUCH more on the range than they did in the classroom.
  
  Here is the law. Anyone who thinks they need 10 hours to cover that, I can suggest some other classes I think you ought to take.

  You're an idiot and your instructor sounds awful