Run away Run away .. I don’t think so “I’m Standing My Ground”
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WebFire
If I feel I am in danger, you're damn right I make that decision.LJ;1540352 wrote:Go ahead and make that decision yourself and you can pay the consequences when they come to you. Myself, I'm about self preservation. I'll never escalate a situation myself. -
queencitybuckeye
You're changing the argument, which as you're losing this one badly, isn't really a surprise. It's not "your life". You get to defend your life. You do NOT get to defend the clerk's life. Were I the clerk, and you shot the robber, he'd be going to the morgue, you'd be going to the emergency room after I beat you to a puddle for getting involved in a situation I had under control.WebFire;1540347 wrote:Wow really? So playing the stat game with your life is cool with you? It's not with me. I don't want to be on the wrong side of that stat.
And assuming an outcome is exactly a hypothetical. -
LJ
You do base it on that.WebFire;1540353 wrote:Exactly right. Which is why you don't base these decisions on hypothetical (or stats).
Fact: gunmen in store with the potential to kill.
"This guy with a gun hasn't shot anyone, he doesn't see me. What are the possible outcomes if I approach him with my weapon?". That's why you don't get involved. -
LJ
If you feel you are in danger? Or you feel that the loss of your life 100% going to happen? I'm not going to shoot someone because im in "danger". 2 guys fist fighting right next to me at a bar put me in "danger".WebFire;1540355 wrote:If I feel I am in danger, you're damn right I make that decision. -
WebFire
I am not losing, nor am I changing any argument. Yes, the conversation has swayed from defending the clerk to defending yourself, because we disagree with what defines defending yourself.queencitybuckeye;1540356 wrote:You're changing the argument, which as you're losing this one badly, isn't really a surprise. It's not "your life". You get to defend your life. You do NOT get to defend the clerk's life. Were I the clerk, and you shot the robber, he'd be going to the morgue, you'd be going to the emergency room after I beat you to a puddle for getting involved in a situation I had under control.
You prefer to wait until the barrel is pointed at your head, I do not. I am eliminated the threat, moreso than saving the clerk. The threat is just as valid to me as to the clerk.
Now, on the flip side, I agreed with your assessment if you are away from the action. I would not "approach" as you said, from the back of the store for instance. -
GoChiefs
Hypothetically, someone points a gun at a 4 year old child, you just gonna stand there?queencitybuckeye;1540341 wrote:Wrong word, it's not hypothetical, it's statistical. No, you don't get to shoot someone holding a gun on someone else when the odds are thousands to one that the trigger will not be pulled. -
WebFire
Jesus Christ you are impossible. We aren't talking about a fist fight, now are we?LJ;1540360 wrote:If you feel you are in danger? Or you feel that the loss of your life 100% going to happen? I'm not going to shoot someone because im in "danger". 2 guys fist fighting right next to me at a bar put me in "danger". -
LJ
You keep going all "white knight" for the clerk while disregarding the impact it will have on your life and your family's life.WebFire;1540367 wrote:Jesus Christ you are impossible. We aren't talking about a fist fight, now are we? -
justincredible
I think the point he is trying to argue is what do you do when you're standing in line next to the guy with the gun, i.e. you're very much in sight of the bad guy.LJ;1540357 wrote:You do base it on that.
"This guy with a gun hasn't shot anyone, he doesn't see me. What are the possible outcomes if I approach him with my weapon?". That's why you don't get involved.
Obviously if you're in the back of the store and no where near the "action" you duck and hang tight. -
queencitybuckeye
1. Different situation. The motives of the bad guy are clearly different.GoChiefs;1540365 wrote:Hypothetically, someone points a gun at a 4 year old child, you just gonna stand there?
2. The idea that the only options are to pull my own gun and shoot or to do nothing is a pretty flawed notion. Can we possibly think that depending on circumstances, there may be other options? -
GoChiefs
But you aren't being directly impacted, and he hasn't fired a shot.queencitybuckeye;1540371 wrote:Different situation. The motives of the bad guy are clearly different. -
LJ
justincredible;1540369 wrote:I think the point he is trying to argue is what do you do when you're standing in line next to the guy with the gun, i.e. you're very much in sight of the bad guy.
Obviously if you're in the back of the store and no where near the "action" you duck and hang tight.
If that's the case, then the scenario was worded very poorly. 5 ft rule there. If you know all the details to an action that is not directly involving you, then being within 5ft puts you in an immediate threat.
If it's within 5ft and I don't know the whole situation, I back off unless the attention is directed towards me. -
WebFire
Where the hell did you come up with that? LOLLJ;1540376 wrote:If that's the case, then the scenario was worded very poorly. 5 ft rule there. If you know all the details to an action that is not directly involving you, then being within 5ft puts you in an immediate threat.
If it's within 5ft and I don't know the whole situation, I back off unless the attention is directed towards me. -
WebFire
Bingo.GoChiefs;1540372 wrote:But you aren't being directly impacted, and he hasn't fired a shot. -
WebFire
No it wasn't. It's pretty much exactly the situation put forth.LJ;1540376 wrote:If that's the case, then the scenario was worded very poorly. -
WebFire
It sure is. But you can't base laws off situations.queencitybuckeye;1540371 wrote:1. Different situation. -
Me?
YAY! Let's all form arguments based on hypothetical situations and speak from what we call a factual basis as we change the parameters of the hypothetical situation in order to be able to claim someone else is losing the argument! -
WebFire
No I don't. Pulling my gun means I made a conscience decision that I NEEDED to pull my gun. You act like a recklessly just pull a gun whenever there is conflict. This is untrue. This is exactly why this law is being discussed, because as it is today, you don't know the legal outcome. It can and has gone either direction.LJ;1540368 wrote:You keep going all "white knight" for the clerk while disregarding the impact it will have on your life and your family's life.
People need clarity on what impact their decisions will have. It's far from a light decision. -
queencitybuckeye
The laws are actually fairly clear.WebFire;1540397 wrote:It sure is. But you can't base laws off situations. -
LJ
The TDI classes I have takenWebFire;1540390 wrote:Where the hell did you come up with that? LOL
http://tdiohio.com/ -
WebFire
Interesting, because gun glasses (including the CHL) put that circle at 20 feet or so. Have to look up the exact distance.
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LJ
No it wasn'tWebFire;1540393 wrote:No it wasn't. It's pretty much exactly the situation put forth.
So I have a concealed gun, and someone comes in to the Speedway I am in and has a gun on the clerk
"Speedway I am in" could mean standing in the back at the beer case or waiting in line in for the shitter. -
WebFire
But the enforcement is not. Nor is self-defense defined clearly.queencitybuckeye;1540406 wrote:The laws are actually fairly clear. -
Me?
If you're waiting in line for the shitter at a Speedway you deserve to get shot.
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LJ
20 feet is your alert circle. You should remove yourself if anyone within 20 feet makes you uncomfortable. 5ft is an absolute and immediate threat that you must take decisive action on.WebFire;1540408 wrote:Interesting, because gun glasses (including the CHL) put that circle at 20 feet or so. Have to look up the exact distance.