How Much Fault is the Coach?
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LJ
Dude, high school football is all that matters in the lives of many childless middle aged men. Very serious businessdlazz;1533398 wrote:I'm content with going for two. Who gives a fuck. It's high school football. -
SportsAndLady
Enforcer, how old are you? -
HitsRus
you said...
then you elaborated...Like I said this was the 2nd team that was in and ran this play its not like it was our first team players
That's a lot more believable as the line play would be key for the execution. Only the holder and kicker were 2nd string.you can call whatever You want it was the 1st team line , 2nd team holder and kicker.
We have 52 kids on Our team , Beallsville has 21 and 1 was ejected in the 1st half
52 kids on the team...wow that's a lot considering Div VII. -
Enforcer
Why does it matter??SportsAndLady;1533426 wrote:Enforcer, how old are you? -
Ironman92
It's different in rural SE Ohio. High school sports, especially football are pretty big source of entertainment. Not a lot going on in Glouster, Wheelersburg, or Lucasville....but a lot of folks have ties to the pretty good football programs (teach/work in school district, relative of player, band, cheerleader)Enforcer;1533462 wrote:Why does it matter??
I went to 4 of our 6 home games and when we make the playoffs I'll travel.....if we happen to host a regional final I'll go to it as well. -
se-alum
Being just down the road from ya, I agree with this. With that being said, there are those sad adult "groupies" at every school. Their lives revolve around high school athletics, and it's quite creepy and pathetic.Ironman92;1533471 wrote:It's different in rural SE Ohio. High school sports, especially football are pretty big source of entertainment. Not a lot going on in Glouster, Wheelersburg, or Lucasville....but a lot of folks have ties to the pretty good football programs (teach/work in school district, relative of player, band, cheerleader)
I went to 4 of our 6 home games and when we make the playoffs I'll travel.....if we happen to host a regional final I'll go to it as well. -
Ironman92
Yeah.....there are some definite weirdos in every community closely following the teams.se-alum;1533483 wrote:Being just down the road from ya, I agree with this. With that being said, there are those sad adult "groupies" at every school. Their lives revolve around high school athletics, and it's quite creepy and pathetic. -
Enforcer
I coach in the Trimble Township Youth League, and We were doing the gate last night and concession stand.
I also have 2 cousins and 4 lifetime family friends Who have kids on the team. And like other said not much to do on a Saturday night in Glouster.
We will be invading Zanesville High School this Saturday at 7 if Anyone want to come watch a good football game!! -
SportsAndLady
Well that makes sense then why you would change the subject of your team's blatant poor sportsmanship to the other team's unsportsmanlike penalties.Enforcer;1533516 wrote:I coach in the Trimble Township Youth League, and We were doing the gate last night and concession stand.
I also have 2 cousins and 4 lifetime family friends Who have kids on the team. -
Enforcer
SportsAndLady;1533518 wrote:Well that makes sense then why you would change the subject of your team's blatant poor sportsmanship to the other team's unsportsmanlike penalties.
How is it unsportsmanlike like?? Should We only score 20?? 30???
it was 33-0 at half, 2nd team O played most of 3rd and all of the 4th -
O-Trap
Who the hell gets hurt feelz over a difference of a point? They kick the PAT and it's an even 60-0. Does little Johnny's self-esteem take a smaller hit if his team loses by 60 instead of 61?
If you cry about losing by that many points, (a) recognize that the other team was likely AT LEAST 60 points better than you, and (b) get better, so it doesn't happen again.
Sweet holy fucking Moses ... -
se-alum
Yeah, all sportsmanship should be removed from sports. :rolleyes:O-Trap;1533562 wrote:Who the hell gets hurt feelz over a difference of a point? They kick the PAT and it's an even 60-0. Does little Johnny's self-esteem take a smaller hit if his team loses by 60 instead of 61?
If you cry about losing by that many points, (a) recognize that the other team was likely AT LEAST 60 points better than you, and (b) get better, so it doesn't happen again.
Sweet holy fucking Moses ... -
Pick6
I haven't seen anybody from the losing team with hurt feelings.O-Trap;1533562 wrote:Who the hell gets hurt feelz over a difference of a point? They kick the PAT and it's an even 60-0. Does little Johnny's self-esteem take a smaller hit if his team loses by 60 instead of 61?
If you cry about losing by that many points, (a) recognize that the other team was likely AT LEAST 60 points better than you, and (b) get better, so it doesn't happen again.
Sweet holy fucking Moses ...
Believe it or not, there is more to winning/losing in high school sports. -
O-Trap
You're inaccurately assuming a dichotomy. You seem to think that just because I think a one point difference is stupid to squabble about (or that the final score necessarily indicates poor sportsmanship), I must think all issues of sportsmanship are stupid.se-alum;1533570 wrote:Yeah, all sportsmanship should be removed from sports. :rolleyes:
But this isn't so.
Moreover, I'd challenge you to defend, objectively, how scoring is linked to sportsmanship. We assume it to be, at least at large, but there's no justifiable foundation to say that a team in a contest starts to show a decline in sportsmanship if they play as hard on subsequent plays as they did on the previous plays ... and the point at which we start to consider scoring more points an element of poor sportsmanship is entirely subjective. As such, there is no rational reason to take it seriously.
Sportsmanship should absolutely take place in sports. Cheap shots, trash talk, treating the winners or losers with ill will after the game, and other things are all poor sportsmanship, and I can make an actual case for that. They are not a fundamental element of the game (scoring, at any point, is), and they do nothing but harm the attitudes between the teams ... those criteria work in tandem. I could get offended that a team blocks my son's punt and makes him cry. Do I have a justified claim? Of course not. Blocking punts is part of the game. So why do we seem to think there is some magical line in the game at which scoring is no longer part of said game? That's idiocy. -
O-Trap
Naturally. As to the former statement, though, I would submit that we wouldn't even be discussing this as a topic if a losing team crying foul in such an affair was a foreign concept.Pick6;1533571 wrote:I haven't seen anybody from the losing team with hurt feelings.
Believe it or not, there is more to winning/losing in high school sports. -
se-alum
So you think a team being up 30 points with a minute to play running their first team offense and scoring against a team that is trying to get their freshman in a playoff game(because they may never have another opportunity) is good sportsmanship?? I'm far from an "everybody gets a trophy" type person, but there is plenty of room to be respectful to your opponent, especially in HS and youth sports.
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Pick6
Ironman, a neutral observer, is the one who created the thread questioning the call and placed blame. He is *probably* more in favor of the winning team, since people usually tend to root for area teams during the playoffs. As an alumni of the losing team, the first and only time I have heard of the situation was on here.O-Trap;1533573 wrote:Naturally. As to the former statement, though, I would submit that we wouldn't even be discussing this as a topic if a losing team crying foul in such an affair was a foreign concept. -
O-Trap
I don't think it's BAD sportsmanship. I think it's foolish (suppose a first-teamer gets injured during that time, for example), but why, specifically and objectively, do you think it's poor sportsmanship? Why 30 points? Why not 20? 17? Who got to decide the cut-off?se-alum;1533574 wrote:So you think a team being up 30 points with a minute to play running their first team offense and scoring against a team that is trying to get their freshman in a playoff game(because they may never have another opportunity) is good sportsmanship??
This seems like it's begging the question. Poor sportsmanship is equitable to disrespecting your opponent, so my questioning of why scoring points at any point in the game is poor sportsmanship is on par with me asking why people think it's disrespectful.se-alum;1533574 wrote:I'm far from an "everybody gets a trophy" type person, but there is plenty of room to be respectful to your opponent, especially in HS and youth sports.
When did we decide that spending the end of a game treating the opponent as an unworthy one (having "mercy" on them) is more respectful than playing as though they ARE a worthy adversary? Why should we call it good sportsmanship when a team has to manipulate its playbook and game plan so as to "dumb down" their play? To me, that's more offensive. For a team to decide that their opponent deserves nothing more than mercy is disrespectful. If you wish to treat your opponent with respect, you play against them as though they are a team whose play ought to be respected.
I don't know how that premise got started, but I don't think it's logically consistent to treat playing the game well, even in the final minutes, as poor sportsmanship if you're up by some arbitrary number.
Sure. And perhaps people on here who root for the losing team were not culprits. Do you mean you've never heard the discussion of "running up the score" as one of sportsmanship? Or do you mean you haven't heard it about this specific game elsewhere?Pick6;1533575 wrote:Ironman, a neutral observer, is the one who created the thread questioning the call and placed blame. He is *probably* more in favor of the winning team, since people usually tend to root for area teams during the playoffs. As an alumni of the losing team, the first and only time I have heard of the situation was on here.
Two teams play each other. One team is, all measures of effort and preparation being at their maximum, 50 points better than the other. Why is it poor sportsmanship for the scoreboard to show an accurate span? What is so inherently unsportsmanlike about it? -
hang_loose
True!!! And in college and pro sports also. We may be hitting Hickies in a few weeks Ironman & se-alum. Getting the urge for some of their burgers. Plus their fries & gravy:RpS_drool:!Ironman92;1533496 wrote:Yeah.....there are some definite weirdos in every community closely following the teams. -
Pick6
^ I am talking about this specific game. I don't think anybody has stated they had a problem with the score (I think se-alum is getting a little off of the specific topic of the thread), but rather the fake extra point at the end. I do not see any reason to do that and believe it lacks class, which the head coach should be instilling in his players. I'd hope most can agree with that.
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O-Trap
I don't think it's an intelligent decision, but I'm not even sure I see a "class" issue with it. Again, it's a single point, so at the end of the day, I don't see the reason to object to it any more than I see a reason to do it.Pick6;1533579 wrote:^ I am talking about this specific game. I don't think anybody has stated they had a problem with the score (I think se-alum is getting a little off of the specific topic of the thread), but rather the fake extra point at the end. I do not see any reason to do that and believe it lacks class, which the head coach should be instilling in his players. I'd hope most can agree with that.
As such, I think it was dumb to go for two, because (a) they didn't need the point, and (b) they risked injury that wouldn't have been risked with just kicking the PAT.
But I can't see a way to tie it to "class." There are plenty of reasons to call off the first team: give the underclassmen developmental experience, minimizing fatigue, ensuring that your first-teamers don't get injured in slop time, etc. Those make sense. Same thing of kneeling the ball. Almost no risk of injury.
Perhaps calling off the dogs shows that a person is conscious of those advantages, and so we call that classy. That's fine, and potentially warranted. But even if that IS classy, I still don't think continuing to play as hard as you have all game should ever be considered classless, because I don't think there's any justification to say that a team who is treating an opponent as a worthy adversary is poor sportsmanship. I don't see a dichotomy there. -
se-alum
Obviously we're not going to agree on this. When you're down 40 points to a team, your players already know you're not a worthy adversary, no need to run up the score to rub it in. Pros and college, I couldn't care less. I just don't see any point in doing it at a HS or youth level. It is not advantageous to either team. Now if you put in your 3rd stringers and they're still scoring against the other teams 3rd stringers, I have no problem with that. Fakes, trick plays, and leaving your 1st team in against 3rd teamers from an obviously overmatched team is not cool.O-Trap;1533580 wrote:I don't think it's an intelligent decision, but I'm not even sure I see a "class" issue with it. Again, it's a single point, so at the end of the day, I don't see the reason to object to it any more than I see a reason to do it.
As such, I think it was dumb to go for two, because (a) they didn't need the point, and (b) they risked injury that wouldn't have been risked with just kicking the PAT.
But I can't see a way to tie it to "class." There are plenty of reasons to call off the first team: give the underclassmen developmental experience, minimizing fatigue, ensuring that your first-teamers don't get injured in slop time, etc. Those make sense. Same thing of kneeling the ball. Almost no risk of injury.
Perhaps calling off the dogs shows that a person is conscious of those advantages, and so we call that classy. That's fine, and potentially warranted. But even if that IS classy, I still don't think continuing to play as hard as you have all game should ever be considered classless, because I don't think there's any justification to say that a team who is treating an opponent as a worthy adversary is poor sportsmanship. I don't see a dichotomy there. -
Enforcer
I hope Your not talking about Trimble here , because Our starters were out in the 3rd quarterse-alum;1533574 wrote:So you think a team being up 30 points with a minute to play running their first team offense and scoring against a team that is trying to get their freshman in a playoff game(because they may never have another opportunity) is good sportsmanship?? I'm far from an "everybody gets a trophy" type person, but there is plenty of room to be respectful to your opponent, especially in HS and youth sports. -
Enforcer
Here is the scoring summery from the Athens Messenger, and I was wrong earlier , it was 38-0 at half time
Trimble 61, Beallsville 0
Beallsville;0;0;0;0;—;0
Trimble;12;27;14;8;—;61
T — Jacob Koons, 6-yard run (kick failed), 2:49, 1st
T — Terry Simerly, 23-yard interception return (pass failed), 2:04, 1st
T — Konner Standley, 20-yard run (Austin Downs pass from Standley), 11:25, 2nd
T — Justice Jenkins, 4-yard run (Jon Stevens kick), 9:04, 2nd
T — Austin Downs, 38-yard pass from Konner Standley (kick failed), 6:38, 2nd
T — Austin Downs, 16-yard pass from Konner Standley (kick failed), 44.0, 2nd
T — Austin Downs, 7-yard pass from Konner Standley (Wyatt Bragg kick), 5:12, 3rd
T — Jacob Koons, 62-yard interception return (Wyatt Bragg kick), 2:37, 3rd
T — Terry Simerly, 3-yard run (Wyatt Bragg run), 10:32, 4th
TEAM STATISTICS
;B;T
First downs;7;18
Plays from scrimmage;63;49
Rushing (plys-yds);34-36;36-213
Passing yards;120;166
Total Net Yards;156;379
Passes (cmp-att-int);12-29-6;10-13-0
Fumbles (no-lost);0-0;3-3
Penalties;12-141;2-15
Punts (no-avg);6-29.7;1-32
INDIVIDUAL STATISTICS -
O-Trap
See, that's the thing. I don't see why continuing to just play the way you've been playing all game is "rubbing it in." If you're playing football, just like you have been all game, you're not trying to rub something in. You're just playing football.se-alum;1533582 wrote:Obviously we're not going to agree on this. When you're down 40 points to a team, your players already know you're not a worthy adversary, no need to run up the score to rub it in.
Oh, I agree with this, unless your starters need the full-game experience -- see 2011 Norwayne playing Smithville ... Norwayne's starters weren't accustomed to playing 4 quarters for most of the year, because they'd blown out every opponent to that point and had usually pulled their starters at halftime or soon thereafter. Perhaps letting their starters play a full game once or twice earlier in the year might have helped them win the game against Smithville.se-alum;1533582 wrote:I just don't see any point in doing it at a HS or youth level.
But I agree, I don't necessarily see a reason to leave starters in any longer than necessary as a general rule. When the defense pulls its starters, you may as well get your future starters some FNL experience. But I don't think it's an issue of sportsmanship. I just think it's whether or not to choose wise team management.
Certainly. You can't really help that, short of telling your kids to intentionally not score, which is also not advantageous.se-alum;1533582 wrote:It is not advantageous to either team. Now if you put in your 3rd stringers and they're still scoring against the other teams 3rd stringers, I have no problem with that.
Again, I think leaving the first team in is just unwise. I don't have an inherent problem with it if it can be justified (see the Norwayne example above), but even if I have a problem with it, it's not based on sportsmanship, I don't think.se-alum;1533582 wrote:Fakes, trick plays, and leaving your 1st team in against 3rd teamers from an obviously overmatched team is not cool.
Fakes or trick plays ... eh, if you're wanting to get field experience running certain plays you don't normally run, fine. If you're doing it for the sole purpose of running up the score, it seems dickish, maybe, but if the result isn't a big difference (as in the example mentioned at the start of this thread), I don't see the problem. 60 points versus 61 points just seems like a silly thing to treat as a problem.