Ohio Chatter DEV

O-Trap

gut;1423098 wrote:You're making the assumption a student is intentionally late and doesn't have a good reason (sans email).

Given his plan, I don't think I'm assuming that he was intentionally late. Unless he can be in three places at once (which would have fixed the whole problem), his evaluation project has lateness to two of the classes baked right in.

As for a good reason, "good" is subjective. However, showing up late, even on the first day, is typically not considered to be the preferred behavior of a student at a university. As such, the default would be, I think, that his plan is not good by most university standards. He wasn't expecting the professor to think it a "good" plan. He was expecting the professor (more than likely, anyway) to be indifferent on the matter. However, if any professor was going to notice it in either direction, it was more than likely going to be a negative response, because again, the default is that being late at all is not preferrable.

gut;1423098 wrote:First day of class - most of the time the students get the rules and lay of the land in that first day - so I think the professor kicking him out was inappropriate.

Except that each class is not just an aggregate of the sum total of all classes everywhere. They are not the same. From the sound of it, the professor was lecturing, which would likely mean that it was more than a lay of the land. Just as well, it seems that sitting in on three classes just getting the lay of the land would tell the student little about the actual classes anyway, sans getting a look at the syllabus.

gut;1423098 wrote:Professor can do what he wants, but that doesn't mean he's not an asshole for what he did.

It neither means he is or is not.

gut;1423098 wrote:He wants to preach respect and maturity then he could have addressed it privately after class.

Or he could do what he did. He expected promptness from the students taking his class. I hardly see that expectation as a lack of respect or maturity. He respects the students enough to assume that they are responsible enough to get to class on time. He even offers a 15-minute window of leeway because, let's face it, shit happens. He asks a student to leave the class after showing up nearly an hour late. That's hardly disrespectful. That's assuming the student could have gone about getting to class on time better.

gut;1423098 wrote:And I think it's very relevant that we are talking an MBA class here. It's their money - as long as they don't disrupt things students should be free to come and go as they please. They certainly shouldn't need their hand held in such manner at that point.

Again, I hardly think assuming that students are independently responsible for showing up on time is hand-holding. I'd say it's the opposite. You set the rules, and it's up to the individual student to act independently to follow them.

I agree that it is relevant that it is an MBA class. The student seems to want to get an education that will help him in a business setting. One of the most basic principles in business: be on time. Another basic one: if plans change, you communicate them to the parties involved.

As far as being able to come and go as one pleases, I disagree. If one is going to "earn" the credits associated with the class, perhaps the grade involves more than quiz and test scores. Things like participation, promptness, or just attendance at all often play a role in the earning of credits. The student is paying for the education, and the reward of the education is credit for it (eventually in the form of a diploma or degree). The students aren't paying the professor to drone on and on as they come and go at their leisure. They're paying him to educate them ... something that requires them to be prompt and in attendance. The professor has the job of determining the rules that best permit him to do that. Even without the rules, however, showing up late or leaving early would be disrespectful in any meeting or training in a business setting. It would be disrespectful to hire a lawyer to go over a case with you and not show up to the meeting, even though you are the customer. Why is this so different?

Mulva;1423112 wrote:Dear Curious,

Many people would consider informing one to "get (your) shit together" to be quite a rude statement to make, clearly lacking manners.

Perhaps in a pre-school it may be rude and inappropriate, clearly lacking in manners.

However, in real life, when we all get to put our big boy pants on, saying a naughty word doesn't inherently make something rude.

The professor was giving him advice. That's French for "a helpful tip." The student was late. That happens. The student justified it in an email. That shows that the student saw nothing wrong with showing up late. The professor demonstrated that that was unacceptable by not allowing him to attend after showing up so late.

Mulva;1423112 wrote:Is it something you would tell your boss?

He's not the professor's boss, so I'm not sure why that's relevant.

Mulva;1423112 wrote:A customer?

If having them as a customer was a tax on my time and they were keeping me from doing my job, and I no longer wished to have them as a customer, sure. The professor was correct. The student displayed self-righteous indignation to his treatment for showing up an hour late to class. Anyone who just shows up late to something with a pre-arranged time without any prior explanation has no justification that doesn't involve an immediate catastrophe or calamity.

If I was a lawyer, and I prepared a bunch of material for a client only for the client to show up an hour late to the meeting and want to only read a third of what I prepared, you bet I'd say it to him. It's true. If he doesn't get his shit together, then it doesn't allow me to do my job, it wastes my time, and it will bode poorly for him in the future.

Mulva;1423112 wrote:The lack of professionalism is especially ironic when one is attempting to make a point about the skills a person needs to have success as a professional.

There is no lack of professionalism in telling someone to pick up their slack, clean up their act, get their shit together, or anything of the like, particularly when the service being provided is one that is to prepare the "customer" for what comes afterward. Have I heard business professionals use that exact phraseology as it pertains to their jobs? Absolutely. It was not the least bit unprofessional. It was precisely what was necessary.

Mulva;1423112 wrote:I think the overall condescending tone of the email, from "I hope the lottery winner that is your recently crowned Monday evening Professor is teaching Judgement and Decision Making or Critical Thinking" right up to the "Again, thanks for the feedback" conclusion, demonstrate a clear lack of respect and humility.

Eh, I would say it certainly demonstrates defensiveness. The student demonstrated a lack of care or respect by showing up so late without communicating that he would be doing so. He showed even more by trying to justify it. That's essentially the definition of an MBA student needing to get his shit together if he wants that MBA to do him any good.

Mulva;1423112 wrote:It's certainly at least as disrespectful as (gasp!) showing up late for a class that you paid for. Hope this helps!

Which part? Telling him that his current attitude won't fly in any business or serious educational setting? Or the fact that he said shit? If the former, I'd be curious why. If the latter, then I'd say you've never been involved in a serious business discussion. Profanity happens.

As for being as disrespectful, use my example above. A lawyer tells a client to get his shit together. The client shows up an hour late to the meeting with no explanation. The client is the customer. The lawyer is the service person. You still think the lawyer is being as disrespectful as the client?

GOONx19

You're an idiot if you think Mulva's post wasn't spot on.

gut

O-Trap;1423133 wrote:Given his plan, I don't think I'm assuming that he was intentionally late. Unless he can be in three places at once (which would have fixed the whole problem), his evaluation project has lateness to two of the classes baked right in.

No, that's not what I'm saying. The professor had no idea the reason he was late when he kicked him out. He could have been showing up late to catch part of the class and then talk to the prof after to see if he can add (which, IMO, is perfectly legit and acceptable). There are any number of acceptable excuses, none of which the prof gave him a chance to explain.

I might actually take a different view on this. Someone who shows up 10-15 minutes late is being rude and irresponsible. Someone who bothers to show up an hour late probably has a decent reason for doing so.

gut

O-Trap;1423133 wrote: Again, I hardly think assuming that students are independently responsible for showing up on time is hand-holding. I'd say it's the opposite. You set the rules, and it's up to the individual student to act independently to follow them.

I agree that it is relevant that it is an MBA class. The student seems to want to get an education that will help him in a business setting. One of the most basic principles in business: be on time. Another basic one: if plans change, you communicate them to the parties involved.

Two things:
1) It's the FIRST DAY of class. The rules are generally set/given on the first day.

2) He's not registered for the class. He doesn't have a 1-on-1 appointment. He has disrupted or put out nobody. The fact he's not registered for the class also mans he wouldn't have the rules or anything like that communicated to him beforehand.

Mulva

O-Trap;1423133 wrote:As for being as disrespectful, use my example above. A lawyer tells a client to get his shit together. The client shows up an hour late to the meeting with no explanation. The client is the customer. The lawyer is the service person. You still think the lawyer is being as disrespectful as the client?

Let's make the situation more applicable. It's a class action settlement. The lawyer is meeting with a group of people. It's supposed to last 90 minutes. The group has already paid the law firm for the 90 minutes of time. One of the members involved in the suit shows up to the meeting an hour into it. The lawyer throws the person out of the meeting, and then tells that person to get their shit together.

Yes, I do think that is more disrespectful on the lawyer's part. You said it yourself. The lawyer is the service person. The person paying for the service should have control over how they choose to use that service. If I had an hour scheduled with a psychiatrist, showed up 30 minutes late and rather than getting to meet for the final 30 minutes that I had paid for was instead told to get my shit together and kicked out I would be furious.

Also, regarding the profanity comment:

CareerBuilder.com says employers are inclined to think less of an employee who swears at work for a variety of reasons. 81-percent believe that the use of curse words makes the employee appear unprofessional. 71-percent say it shows a lack of control, and 68-percent say it shows a lack of maturity.

I swear all the time. I don't do it in situations when I want to appear respectful or professional though, because I'm not an idiot.

Also, your argument that telling someone to get their shit together isn't disrespectful because profanity happens is not coherent. It's like saying stealing $1,000 isn't immoral because theft happens.

The way you phrase a message can be disrespectful and discourteous even if the message itself is entirely valid. The professor can choose to be an asshole if he wants. He just shouldn't be lecturing other people on professional behavior. Very few things annoy me more than a holier-than-thou attitude.

O-Trap

GOONx19;1423136 wrote:You're an idiot if you think Mulva's post wasn't spot on.

So the options are:

1. A person thinks it's disrespectful to tell someone to change his/her attitude or behavior.
2. A person thinks it's disrespectful to use naughty words.
3. A person is an idiot.

Got it.

gut;1423161 wrote:No, that's not what I'm saying. The professor had no idea the reason he was late when he kicked him out. He could have been showing up late to catch part of the class and then talk to the prof after to see if he can add (which, IMO, is perfectly legit and acceptable).

I agree that it is a legitimate reason ... IF the student contacts the professor before-hand and lets him know he'll be doing so.

gut;1423161 wrote:There are any number of acceptable excuses, none of which the prof gave him a chance to explain.

I'm hard-pressed to come up with many, if any. Took someone to the hospital and just got back to campus? Perhaps. However, that's not the case. Again, this is an instance of the the student volitionally missing most of the class and then showing up incredibly late at the end.

gut;1423161 wrote:I might actually take a different view on this. Someone who shows up 10-15 minutes late is being rude and irresponsible. Someone who bothers to show up an hour late probably has a decent reason for doing so.

10-15 minutes can easily be explained by road construction, traffic, car troubles, etc.

As for a reason to show up an hour late, take it from someone who used to do that for unscrupulous reasons. Class took attendance by having a "sign-in" sheet. I had a class immediately after that one in the same building. I showed up a little early for the latter class, walked into the lecture hall of the first class about 10 minutes before the end of class. Signed in upon leaving. Went to the class all of 4 times that semester. Got credit for going all but one time.

Perhaps it's because I'm coming from that perspective. Perhaps it's because I realized that what I was doing was incredibly disrespectful to the professor. What I was saying was that what the professor put together as the content for class that day wasn't worth sitting in for.

gut;1423165 wrote:Two things:
1) It's the FIRST DAY of class. The rules are generally set/given on the first day.

Even if it isn't a rule at all, it's still a disrespectful thing to do. There are other rules he wasn't aware of, but I daresay if he'd stood up and urinated on the desk without being told it was against the rules, he still would have been asked to leave.

Promptness and attendance are such basic tennets of professionalism. You learn them in your first job mopping floors, bussing tables, bagging groceries, or serving fast food. Why is it suddenly different in college? Because you pay for the education? Hard for a professor to make good on his responsibility to educate someone if they don't show up for the content of the class, and if he gives two poops (since others on this board think naughty words aren't used by professional people) about how students leave his class, then he'll care about more than the fact that he's receiving a paycheck. He'll actually care about successfully equipping students to not only have the material, but to "have their shit in order" as well.

And again, remember, you can't just assume every class is going to be the same. He was apparently already lecturing on the first day of class. That's not just a "here's what we'll learn about" class time. That's actual material. And he missed it. Should that just be okay because a lot of other classes don't do that on the first day? Of course not.

gut;1423165 wrote:2) He's not registered for the class. He doesn't have a 1-on-1 appointment. He has disrupted or put out nobody. The fact he's not registered for the class also mans he wouldn't have the rules or anything like that communicated to him beforehand.

He apparently disrupted the professor. Does it say he didn't disrupt anyone else, or are we assuming that? I'm not disagreeing with you, as I think it's irrelevant. I just don't recall.

And again, beyond the rules, it's rude to show up late at all, let alone that late, and it shouldn't be unreasonable for the person whose content he chose to skip so much of to feel slighted.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:Let's make the situation more applicable. It's a class action settlement. The lawyer is meeting with a group of people. It's supposed to last 90 minutes. The group has already paid the law firm for the 90 minutes of time. One of the members involved in the suit shows up to the meeting an hour into it. The lawyer throws the person out of the meeting, and then tells that person to get their shit together.

There's a problem with this analogy. With class-action suits, many of the claimants are often not involved in the actual proceedings. There's no shit for them to have in order.

That's not the case with a student. That's a significant difference. Whether or not it would be disrespectful for a lawyer to do that, it would be nonsensical for him to do it, because his job isn't to prep or educate the single member in any significant way other than breaking down the events so far.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:Yes, I do think that is more disrespectful on the lawyer's part. You said it yourself. The lawyer is the service person.

The lawyer is a service person, sure, but the lawyer doesn't have to continue allowing the customer to be a customer. They can kick them out if they feel slighted by the customer, particularly if they don't need the customer.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:The person paying for the service should have control over how they choose to use that service.

Again, I go back to the Country Club analogy. If I have a tee-time at 9:00 AM, and I'm scheduled to play the front nine, then I am expected to keep my tee time and play the front nine. If I show up at 9:12 and try to play the 3rd through the 11th, they're going to deny me the ability to do so.

Why? I am the paying customer. Is it not my right to control how I choose to use the service? That is, after all, about where I might be anyway?

That's the thing. It's not my right to control how I use the service. It's not my right to control the service at all. If the service says I'm signed up to be at the tees at 9, I'm either there at 9, or I don't come.

Now, is it possible that some club out there would indeed let you squeeze in like that? Sure. Does that mean that you have a right to do so at all clubs? Of course not. It's their course. You can play at the designated time, or you can not play. They run the course, so they make the rules which you have to abide by, regardless of whether or not you know them.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:If I had an hour scheduled with a psychiatrist, showed up 30 minutes late and rather than getting to meet for the final 30 minutes that I had paid for was instead told to get my shit together and kicked out I would be furious.

You shouldn't be. If you're going to a psychiatrist, there is probably a reason, and if you're going to be serious about getting better, you need to be on time and get the full benefit of the psychiatrist's time. Otherwise, you're wasting your money, minimizing the benefits of going, not taking the psychiatrist's help seriously, and wasting his/her time. I daresay, I wouldn't blame the psychiatrist for being offended.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:Also, regarding the profanity comment:

I swear all the time. I don't do it in situations when I want to appear respectful or professional though, because I'm not an idiot.

In professional circumstances which actually carry some gravitas, it's certainly appropriate to do so. I've done so in front of a CEO when I was in an entry-level position, but it wasn't frivolous. It merely fit the severity of the situation. I certainly think that applies here.

Mulva;1423178 wrote: Also, your argument that telling someone to get their shit together isn't disrespectful because profanity happens is not coherent. It's like saying stealing $1,000 isn't immoral because theft happens.

You've missed my intended message. I'm not saying that because it happens it isn't disrespectful. I'm saying because it's so widely accepted in business environments, it's not disrespectful. I'm saying just because it might hurt his feelings, that doesn't mean it's necessarily disrespectful.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:The way you phrase a message can be disrespectful and discourteous even if the message itself is entirely valid.

Of course. If he'd added "idiot" at the end of the statement, thus attacking the student's character, which is completely unproductive, he would have been disrespectful. As it is, he made a declarative statement.

However, what you're talking about is entirely subjective.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:The professor can choose to be an asshole if he wants.

So could the student.

Mulva;1423178 wrote:He just shouldn't be lecturing other people on professional behavior. Very few things annoy me more than a holier-than-thou attitude.

I don't know the professor's background, but perhaps he knows what it takes to graduate from the school and succeed beyond it. If that's the case, I'd say he has every grounds for lecturing someone who shows disregard for a basic principle in both social and professional settings: be on time.

And if he is indeed of the credibility that he knows more about professionalism than the college student (and I suspect most professors do), then I don't think giving him advice, harsh or not, is a display of a holier-than-thou attitude. It's just being bluntly honest.

Pick6

OTrap is definitly breaking his 350 word reply limit or whatever it was.

O-Trap

Pick6;1423205 wrote:OTrap is definitly breaking his 350 word reply limit or whatever it was.

It had been awhile since I'd gotten in a nice, long post.

Plus, I'm putting off finalizing the paperwork I'm giving my tax guy tomorrow morning.

gut

In my program, interviews started right away. So common for people to come late, because of an interview or perhaps late flight, or miss the occasional class that I'm not aware of any professor having such a rule. Which is why I think it's absolutely ridiculous he kicked him out on the first day without any clue as to why this guy came an hour late.

None of my teachers took attendance. If they wanted to make sure you were there and prepared, they had participation grades. From my experience/perspective if this kid is an hour late he has a good reason for being so, and good reason for bothering to come at all - otherwise why bother showing up for the last 20-30 minutes?

queencitybuckeye