NYU prof is doing it right

• gut

  Fly4Fun;1422726 wrote: I know some undergraduate institutions encourage students to shop around classes.

  I don't really consider it "shopping" to spend 20 minutes of a lecture. The kid didn't do his homework beforehand if he's having to sample 3 classes all at the same time. In fact, I'd suggest he was more interested in taking a class at that specific time than taking a great class.
  
  And I'm not sure this is NECESSARILY a sense of entitlement the student is displaying, i.e. thinking he should get special treatment as an unregistered student for that class. But it is kind of an indignant apology that appears to be fishing for an apology from the prof.
  
  "Get your shit together" was 100% the correct response.
• gut

  Pick6;1422995 wrote:Its stupid, JMO. Professor was a hard-ass for no reason. His life is probably miserable.

  I really expected the prof to say something like "if you intended to sample my course before deciding to enroll, then it's only smart and courteous to sample the ENTIRE lecture". In a roundabout way he does kind of say that.
  
  Classes do fill up, and then not all the remaining are going to satisfy any sort of concentration or major requirement. To be choosing from 3 classes at the same time really suggests priorities are a bit screwed up, especially for an MBA student.
• Pick6

  

  gut;1423006 wrote:I really expected the prof to say something like "if you intended to sample my course before deciding to enroll, then it's only smart and courteous to sample the ENTIRE lecture". In a roundabout way he does kind of say that.
  
  Classes do fill up, and then not all the remaining are going to satisfy any sort of concentration or major requirement. To be choosing from 3 classes at the same time really suggests priorities are a bit screwed up, especially for an MBA student.

  Thats a good point, but I was mostly referring to the prof kicking him out of class. What problems did he cause?
• queencitybuckeye

  Pick6;1422995 wrote:Its stupid, JMO. Professor was a hard-ass for no reason. His life is probably miserable.

  It probably wouldn't be how I would run a class, but if one believes that part of a college education is helping in the transition from childhood to the world of grownups, having the expectation that people show up on time isn't especially out of line.
• gut

  tk421;1422858 wrote:why the hell do universities even care, as long as you don't enter from the front and interrupt the class? They are paying the tens of thousands for tuition either way, if they want to be late or not go to class, no skin off the professor's back.

  Very true. It's an MBA program, supposedly, and whether it's a part-timer or full-time student, jobs and interviews sometimes interfere (maybe not in this case). But beside that, when you pay $4000+ for a single course, arbitrary policies more appropriate for 18-yr old freshmen are pretty insulting.
• queencitybuckeye

  gut;1423010 wrote:Very true. It's an MBA program, supposedly, and whether it's a part-timer or full-time student, jobs and interviews sometimes interfere (maybe not in this case). But beside that, when you pay $4000+ for a single course, arbitrary policies more appropriate for 18-yr old freshmen are pretty insulting.

  Or one could look at it the opposite way, that those in an MBA course of study should be able to grasp a basic business concept such as being late is bad.
• gut

  Pick6;1423008 wrote:Thats a good point, but I was mostly referring to the prof kicking him out of class. What problems did he cause?

  Yeah, if there's no disruption I don't see the issue. When interviews start, students are coming and going late/early all the time. If you come late repeatedly the prof will say something, but otherwise not something you usually see enforced.
  
  The student is a complete dipshit for sending the letter, especially considering he didn't register for his class (and saw a need to mention that). The prof's response is mostly just irritation on multiple levels.
• gut

  queencitybuckeye;1423012 wrote:Or one could look at it the opposite way, that those in an MBA course of study should be able to grasp a basic business concept such as being late is bad.

  Sometimes it's unavoidable, such as the case may be here. REPEATEDLY being late is bad, and there's no evidence of that here. There's common courtesy and responsibility to be expected of an adult student, and then there's treating them like juveniles as this prof appears to be with his strict and arbitrary requirements.
• Dr Winston O'Boogie

  

  The professor is doing a great service to the student. Business school is a fine place to learn that basic common sense is necessary for success in any organizatin. YOu wouldn't walk into a meeting an hour late. Nothing wrong with having that lesson hammered home before the consequences of non-compliance are much greater.
• Fly4Fun

  

  Dr Winston O'Boogie;1423018 wrote:The professor is doing a great service to the student. Business school is a fine place to learn that basic common sense is necessary for success in any organizatin. YOu wouldn't walk into a meeting an hour late. Nothing wrong with having that lesson hammered home before the consequences of non-compliance are much greater.

  Would you enter into a contract with another party before exploring other options/gathering material information?
• queencitybuckeye

  gut;1423017 wrote:Sometimes it's unavoidable, such as the case may be here. REPEATEDLY being late is bad, and there's no evidence of that here. There's common courtesy and responsibility to be expected of an adult student, and then there's treating them like juveniles as this prof appears to be with his strict and arbitrary requirements.

  Actually, we know it's not the case here.
• Pick6

  

  Fly4Fun;1423021 wrote:Would you enter into a contract with another party before exploring other options/gathering material information?

  While I dont agree with Winston, because a grad student at NYU would obviously know the importance of being on time, there is nothing stopping the student from dropping the class after attending one and picking up another.
• gut

  Dr Winston O'Boogie;1423018 wrote:YOu wouldn't walk into a meeting an hour late. Nothing wrong with having that lesson hammered home before the consequences of non-compliance are much greater.

  No, you wouldn't just show-up an hour late, you'd call to explain beforehand and offer to reschedule. It happens all the time. And most MBA students have already learned these lessons with 2-5 years or more of real world business experience. Treating them like children is pretty inappropriate.
  
  I think what it boils down to is the prof just chose to make an example of this student (i.e., if you're going to be an hour late attend another section, because I don't want you getting just 20-30 minutes of the class). Then he got offended/irritated by the letter. He probably never considered, or just didn't care, that this student might just be wanting to see a few minutes of a lecture before registering.
  
  If you zero-in on the "and now you regret hitting send", the real lesson he's getting at here is the student turned a "no-harm, no-foul" incident into something embarrassing for that student. I'd have to re-read, but I'm not sure the courtesy and responsibility he's referring to is about much, much more than simply being on time.
• Pick6

  

  I'd also like to point out that while I definitely dont side with the professor, I dont agree with the student sending the email crying, either.
• Al Bundy

  gut;1423034 wrote:No, you wouldn't just show-up an hour late, you'd call to explain beforehand

  If the student would have done that with the class, the entire situation could have been avoided.
• O-Trap

  

  Too many better options than what the student chose, and all it would have taken was a little foresight. It's not rocket science. Coming into a class that late is indeed disrespectful. If he genuinely wanted to test out the classes, even in the manner he did, he should have let all the professors know ahead of time what he was doing.
  
  I wonder if the other two professors minded.
• Mulva

  

  So the professor responds in a douchey sarcastic way, tells the student to get his shit together, and then 2 sentences later starts to lecture on "having manners and demonstrating a level of humility"? Student should have pointed out his hypocrisy and told him to go fuck himself.
• gut

  Al Bundy;1423053 wrote:If the student would have done that with the class, the entire situation could have been avoided.

  Not really practical to do that, and I'd argue unnecessary. I don't think the student had an unreasonable expectation about doing this given it's the first day of classes and a relatively common practice, at many universities if not NYU. Quite honestly, it's a bit of self-importance for the prof to kick the student out on the first day, for multiple reasons.
  
  I don't think the student did anything wrong, except for the whining and inconsiderate email.
• gut

  O-Trap;1423065 wrote:Coming into a class that late is indeed disrespectful.

  I think you need to distinguish for the first day or two of class and allow some leeway. There are many reasons why a student could have a scheduling conflict, and in my experience most professors would just prefer you do what you need to do rather than bother them with an email.
  
  If we turn it around, the student is really the buyer here. And so if a buyer turns up an hour late, they probably don't expect to be lectured or turned away by a seller.
• O-Trap

  

  Mulva;1423074 wrote:So the professor responds in a douchey sarcastic way, tells the student to get his shit together, and then 2 sentences later starts to lecture on "having manners and demonstrating a level of humility"? Student should have pointed out his hypocrisy and told him to go fuck himself.

  Why is telling someone to get his/her shit together not having manners or demonstrating a lack of humility?
  
  - Curious in Akron
• Dr Winston O'Boogie

  

  Fly4Fun;1423021 wrote:Would you enter into a contract with another party before exploring other options/gathering material information?

  Apples to oranges. If the kid doesn't like a class, he can drop. If two classes are at the same time and they are both interesting, there are ways to research and make a call prior to day one. I have had this experience before and I'm sure many here have as well. However he went about figuring it out, showing up late in a guy's class who doesn't allow that is no one's fault but his. My point is that this is good training for him prior to the job market. He'll know to have his stuff lined up right before he shows up somewhere.
• O-Trap

  

  gut;1423083 wrote:I think you need to distinguish for the first day or two of class and allow some leeway. There are many reasons why a student could have a scheduling conflict, and in my experience most professors would just prefer you do what you need to do rather than bother them with an email.
  
  If we turn it around, the student is really the buyer here. And so if a buyer turns up an hour late, they probably don't expect to be lectured or turned away by a seller.

  Oh, I agree that some leeway should be granted. However, the leeway should be for things like being unfamiliar with campus and not knowing where to go. At an hour late, you're not accidentally late. You're intentionally late. Being intentionally late is indeed a rude thing.
  
  As for whether contacting the professor is necessary, it would have been WISER for him to do so. If the professor would have preferred he just do what he had to do (as the other two professors probably did, given that there is no mention of their reaction to the student's leaving the class early and/or joining it late), he probably would have told him so in the email. But it is the student's responsibility to cover his bases if he wishes to do something out of the ordinary. Provided he expressed that in the email, I sincerely doubt any professor would be annoyed that his student was being thorough.
  
  As for being a customer, it's not a complete apples-to-apples comparison. I'd suggest that it's more like a Country Club. The patrons are indeed the customers, but they are required to be accepted, and they can be kicked out at the Club's discretion. The student jumped through the hoops to be in that school (a prestigious business school) where the supply is low and the demand is high. If he leaves, there are plenty of students happy to take his place. As such, the school doesn't need to cater to the student, since there are plenty of students willing to cater to the school in order to reap the benefits of the actual education and degree.
• gut

  You're making the assumption a student is intentionally late and doesn't have a good reason (sans email). First day of class - most of the time the students get the rules and lay of the land in that first day - so I think the professor kicking him out was inappropriate.
  
  Professor can do what he wants, but that doesn't mean he's not an asshole for what he did. He wants to preach respect and maturity then he could have addressed it privately after class.
  
  And I think it's very relevant that we are talking an MBA class here. It's their money - as long as they don't disrupt things students should be free to come and go as they please. They certainly shouldn't need their hand held in such manner at that point.
• BoatShoes

  Sure the professor seems like a dick and maybe an uptight douche...but plenty of professors are right? He have been a cool professor and said "ah, no big deal". However, no way I would just show up an hour late with no notice and would not be surprised if the professor was a douche/pissed about it.
  
  If you're going to assume anything, it seems to me you assume that they would not be cool about it. It's better to be an hour early than 5 minutes late, as the saying goes.
  
  I also wonder if the student wasn't aware of this particular professor's personality? When I first saw this going around teh internetz years ago it was suggested that it was well known that this Galloway guy was kind of a prick/not-laid-back.
• Mulva

  

  O-Trap;1423085 wrote:Why is telling someone to get his/her shit together not having manners or demonstrating a lack of humility?
  
  - Curious in Akron

  Dear Curious,
  
  Many people would consider informing one to "get (your) shit together" to be quite a rude statement to make, clearly lacking manners. Is it something you would tell your boss? A customer? The lack of professionalism is especially ironic when one is attempting to make a point about the skills a person needs to have success as a professional.
  
  I think the overall condescending tone of the email, from "I hope the lottery winner that is your recently crowned Monday evening Professor is teaching Judgement and Decision Making or Critical Thinking" right up to the "Again, thanks for the feedback" conclusion, demonstrate a clear lack of respect and humility.
  
  It's certainly at least as disrespectful as (gasp!) showing up late for a class that you paid for. Hope this helps!