Anyone can troll a website, but it takes talent to troll a whole town
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Skyhook79
"For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body." 2 Cor 5:10enigmaax;1159493 wrote:I don't know, what is the purpose of heaven/eternal life? Are there right and wrong choices there?
That is the purpose for life on Earth.
A New Heaven and a New Earth
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[SUP][a][/SUP] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bridebeautifully dressed for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.[SUP]4 [/SUP]‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[SUP][b][/SUP] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega,the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Rev 21 1-8
I would say based on that there will be no evil to have to worry about and the purpose of Heaven and eternal life. -
enigmaax
You asked what the point of life is without choices of right and wrong. If life without those choices is pointless, then you are saying the idea of eternal life in heaven without evil and without choices is pointless, right?Skyhook79;1159501 wrote:I would say based on that there will be no evil to have to worry about and the purpose of Heaven and eternal life.
If it is as simple as "what's the point" without evil, choices, etc., are you saying God was just bored with eternal bliss so he decided to liven it up? Oh, and send them to hell if they fail his test. -
Con_Alma
I understand why you might see it that way. I don't. I see it as God wanting people to be with Him that want to be there. They doesn't happen without giving them the option of not being with Him.enigmaax;1159483 wrote:This goes back to the whole game/experiment mentality. Why create evil and make it a test of their will, then make them feel like **** for exercising that will? It is either complete bull**** or a real ****head move. -
enigmaax
So why make the alternative so dreadful? And why did he get so pissed off the instant someone chose to do something he told them not to?Con_Alma;1159532 wrote:I understand why you might see it that way. I don't. I see it as God wanting people to be with Him that want to be there. They doesn't happen without giving them the option of not being with Him. -
Con_Alma
This is the most interesting question. The alternative is being without God. Being with Him is so great that being without Him will be the most dreadful thing imaginable.enigmaax;1159535 wrote:So why make the alternative so dreadful?
It's not about how dreadful the alternative is but rather the amazing eternity being with God is. -
enigmaax
I've never really heard hell described as simply "being without him". Do I have the wrong impression? And if a person doesn't know how "amazing etenity being with God is", how could that person even begin to measure how dreadful life is without him, let alone consider it the most dreadful thing imaginable?Con_Alma;1159539 wrote:This is the most interesting question. The alternative is being without God. Being with Him is so great that being without Him will be the most dreadful thing imaginable.
It's not about how dreadful the alternative is but rather the amazing eternity being with God is. -
Con_Alma
Good questions. It's not the reward or lack there of that's the motivating factor in the acceptance of Christ. That's the wrong reason to movie towards Him in my opinion. The reason someone accepts Christ is because of the true belief that he is the Son of God and has given you a gift forgiving our sins/separation from God. The results are what we receive from either deciding or not.enigmaax;1159547 wrote:I've never really heard hell described as simply "being without him". Do I have the wrong impression? And if a person doesn't know how "amazing etenity being with God is", how could that person even begin to measure how dreadful life is without him, let alone consider it the most dreadful thing imaginable?
IN short, I don't speak for others but it's not the reward that's the motivator but rather me responding to what I believe is true. -
enigmaax
I get that. Again, why the reward/punishment system at all? Couldn't an ego-less God give choices and accept those choices either way? If you really want people to be free to choose and to choose you on your own merits, why make one choice so seemingly clear as the better choice by making the outcomes of the choices so extreme?Con_Alma;1159553 wrote:Good questions. It's not the reward or lack there of that's the motivating factor in the acceptance of Christ. That's the wrong reason to movie towards Him in my opinion. The reason someone accepts Christ is because of the true belief that he is the Son of God and has given you a gift forgiving our sins/separation from God. The results are what we receive from either deciding or not.
IN short, I don't speak for others but it's not the reward that's the motivator but rather me responding to what I believe is true. -
Con_Alma
God does accept those choices either way. He accepts if people do not want to spend eternity with Him. He gives them the ability to get what they choose even if it means not being with Him.enigmaax;1159563 wrote:I get that. Again, why the reward/punishment system at all? Couldn't an ego-less God give choices and accept those choices either way? If you really want people to be free to choose and to choose you on your own merits, why make one choice so seemingly clear as the better choice by making the outcomes of the choices so extreme?
Those who choose not to be with him do believe it's a better choice because , I am guessing, they don't believe there's a better option because they don't believe God exists as presented. -
sleeper
That's actually a jmog quote, but jmog uses it to get out of corners he constantly gets backed in to.Raw Dawgin' it;1159461 wrote:lol way to back peddle - first it's without the influence of sin now it's they were created without sin. As sleeper would say, way to move the goal posts. -
enigmaax
And that clearly pisses God off because he doesn't just accept that choice and let it go, he sends them to hell. He punishes them for making the wrong choice. That isn't acceptance.Con_Alma;1159566 wrote:Those who choose not to be with him do believe it's a better choice because , I am guessing, they don't believe there's a better option because they don't believe God exists as presented. -
Con_Alma
It's not a punishment if you don't believe in God. How would being without him be a punishment?enigmaax;1159568 wrote:And that clearly pisses God off because he doesn't just accept that choice and let it go, he sends them to hell. He punishes them for making the wrong choice. That isn't acceptance.
it's tough to let my children make wrong decisions. I love them but I also know it's their life not mine. -
enigmaax
Eternity in a fire pit is not punishment? Is that not how hell is described? If you are right about God, and we're to believe this judgment happens, don't you stand there and explain your bad choices and why you didn't believe and then they tell you to GTFO? Go directly to hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. And burn for eternity. Sucks bein' you. Thanks for playing. Thank you drive through. C-ya bye.Con_Alma;1159570 wrote:It's not a punishment if you don't believe in God. How would being without him be a punishment?
it's tough to let my children make wrong decisions. I love them but I also know it's their life not mine. -
sleeper
God created us to give us a choice to spend eternal life with him or eternal life in a fiery pit.
Sounds made up. -
Con_Alma
For someone who believe in God being with out Him has to be like being in a fire pit. For someone who believes in God it has to be a punishment to not be with him. I don't know how else it can be described.enigmaax;1159579 wrote:Eternity in a fire pit is not punishment? Is that not how hell is described? If you are right about God, and we're to believe this judgment happens, don't you stand there and explain your bad choices and why you didn't believe and then they tell you to GTFO? Go directly to hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. And burn for eternity. Sucks bein' you. Thanks for playing. Thank you drive through. C-ya bye.
For those who don't believe in God I don't see it as really mattering. -
Con_Alma
Of course it sounds made up if you don't believe in God.sleeper;1159584 wrote:God created us to give us a choice to spend eternal life with him or eternal life in a fiery pit.
Sounds made up. -
sleeper
No its not that at all. It's made up whether you believe in it or don't.Con_Alma;1159620 wrote:Of course it sounds made up if you don't believe in God.
For example, if I don't believe in gravity, that doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist. Belief is independent of fact.
Why would god create people to have a choice to end up with him? It seems he could easily cut out the middle man and just create people in eternal life. -
Con_Alma
I agree that belief is independent of fact. We have agreed on that several times.sleeper;1159629 wrote:No its not that at all. It's made up whether you believe in it or don't.
For example, if I don't believe in gravity, that doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist. Belief is independent of fact.
Why would god create people to have a choice to end up with him? It seems he could easily cut out the middle man and just create people in eternal life.
Knowing that you don't have belief in God, it is not surprising that the further expansion and explanation surrounding him sounds made up to you.
You last question regarding why has been addressed in the above posts. He doesn't want you to be where you don't choose to be. -
sleeper
But you aren't created yet, he, according to religion, creates you. So he creates you, gives you a "choice" to follow him, and if you do, he comes back with you, and if you don't, you go to hell.Con_Alma;1159642 wrote:I agree that belief is independent of fact. We have agreed on that several times.
Knowing that you don't have belief in God, it is not surprising that the further expansion and explanation surrounding him sounds made up to you.
You last question regarding why has been addressed in the above posts. He doesn't want you to be where you don't choose to be.
Like I said, sounds completely made up. -
Con_Alma
Like I said, it's not surprising it sounds made up to someone who doesn't believe in him.sleeper;1159649 wrote:But you aren't created yet, he, according to religion, creates you. So he creates you, gives you a "choice" to follow him, and if you do, he comes back with you, and if you don't, you go to hell.
Like I said, sounds completely made up. -
sleeper
Agreed. If you don't believe, you have no stake in the game and can be unbiased and use the facts alone to make a determination. If you were indoctrinated into the belief, you have a bias to defend that belief with all your heart because you don't want to be wrong and have to face the fact that you wasted your life on a false belief.Con_Alma;1159653 wrote:Like I said, it's not surprising it sounds made up to someone who doesn't believe in him. -
Con_Alma
I hope I have never tried to stop you from stating your claims based on "fact".sleeper;1159656 wrote:Agreed. If you don't believe, you have no stake in the game and can be unbiased and use the facts alone to make a determination. If you were indoctrinated into the belief, you have a bias to defend that belief with all your heart because you don't want to be wrong and have to face the fact that you wasted your life on a false belief.
Even if I were wrong, I would still not consider my life a waste. -
enigmaax
Do you believe that hell is designed as a place of endless suffering? Do you believe in universal reconciliation?Con_Alma;1159618 wrote:For someone who believe in God being with out Him has to be like being in a fire pit. For someone who believes in God it has to be a punishment to not be with him. I don't know how else it can be described.
For those who don't believe in God I don't see it as really mattering. -
Con_Alma
As one who believes in God, I think it would be endless suffering to be without him eternally.enigmaax;1159676 wrote:Do you believe that hell is designed as a place of endless suffering? Do you believe in universal reconciliation?
I adhere more to Christian Conditionalism than universal reconciliation. -
jmog
I have ignored most of this thread for awhile, but this one made me laugh. To really say you are "unbiased" is hilarious. You are no more unbiased than any of the believers on this thread.sleeper;1159656 wrote:Agreed. If you don't believe, you have no stake in the game and can be unbiased and use the facts alone to make a determination. If you were indoctrinated into the belief, you have a bias to defend that belief with all your heart because you don't want to be wrong and have to face the fact that you wasted your life on a false belief.